Victory: Wisconsin Teachers Just Voted to Disband Their Teachers Union

[FA_Q2]

They enjoy other perks unique to their profession. But the bottom line is, Taxpayers cannot provide them with an endless flow of cash. So if you decide to work for a Tax-Funded institution, you have to accept the conditions. It's not the Private Sector. You're probably not gonna get rich. But you can live quite well.

No one is forced to work in the Public Sector. It's a choice. If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else. That's just the way it is. But for the love of God, quit all the bitchin & whining. The days of Teachers crying wolf are over. The Taxpayers are fed up. It's time for change.

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

I would not complain either if I was exempt from social security 15% tax rate on my net every year.
Social security mandates rob citizens. The return is less than zero.
I agree with you about teaching but tell me this. How come every other industrialized nation in the world requires teachers and students to go to school 12 months of the year?
And how are their test scores compared to ours in math and science?
Teachers and students need to be in school 12 months a year.

Year round school would be better but it is not year round that causes us to lag in many indicators IMHO. There is not really a clear cut answer to this though. There are a thousand different systems and that means that there are a thousand different reasons that one is better or worse than ours. I think there are some intrinsic things that are always going to make us lag a bit like the fact that we require ALL students to complete K-12 where many school systems cut out the ones that do not achieve earlier. I would not want to see that changed because even if they are not cut out for a job that requires such education they still vote and need to be somewhat educated. That also cuts off later opportunity for some that just don’t fit in with the system rather than simply cannot be taught. That is one major issue that we have when talking about lagging schools vs. other nations.

 

[DaGoose]

What an asinine statement. You know damn well that it is utterly false.

We survive with higher wages because we produce a better and grater product. The point is that when you inflate those wages past a reasonable point, make it difficult to fire those that DO NOT earn those wages, impossible to promote those that are earning more than those wages and encourage the workforce to do as little as possible the advantages go out the window. Couple that with bloated and unreasonable regulations already inflating the cost of doing business here and you have the perfect stick to chase companies and jobs away from the US to other nations that do not have those cost inflating measures in place.

In a nonunion shop, you are NOT going to hear the words ‘that is not my job’ but I work with union members on a daily basis and I hear that multiple times a day. We will have a crew of 6 people standing around doing nothing because a single screw needs to be removed but removing that screw is not ‘their job.’ No one ever points out that they are capable of accomplishing that task. Capability is not the issue – what is written in some bullshit job description seems to be the only thing that matters and god forbid if that screw was not specifically mentioned.


On that same token, I work with people that will never see a promotion that more than deserve it for asinine ‘seniority’ rules that ensure the best person for the job is NOT the one that is promoted.


It is a worthless straw man when people start demanding that the opposition wants to see wages here that match those in China or Thailand. No one wants that BUT there is a clear and strong argument against the ADDITIONAL costs that we add but do not do anything at all to increase worker compensation but rather only stifle productivity. Productivity that is REQUIRED to compensate for the fact that we higher wages.

Wow. Things like that are easy to say but without specifics how can anyone reply to exactly what point you're trying to make? You're arguments are way too broad.

It's like saying you're against unecessary spending. Hell, EVERYONE is against unecessary spending. Try and put together a coherent argument and get back to me.

I did put one together. Just because you want to ignore reality and make worthless accusations like wanting people here to earn a slave wage does not negate that fact. You try and come of from the high road but don’t forget that it was YOU that started making asinine claims about what others ‘want.’


I cant because no one can. I just got dine explaining the basics of that to you but you are WAY to fixated on the idea that a wage should be something that is somehow defined. Its not. Labor being a commodity, what defines a proper wage is that which the market for that labor can bear. IT is based on the availability and demand. There is a reason that fast food workers make so little. The labor is WIDELY available. Anyone can do the job with almost zero training. In fact, the only real training that is required is because of bloated government regulations and corporate bureaucracy that comes with larger institutions. The major supplied is extremely plentiful. Couple that with the fact that there is very little demand for that labor (if prices increase most will simply go to a decent restaurant instead) the cost of that labor is very small. Changing that cost by the way is irrelevant because the value stays the same.

In the end, increasing those costs does nothing more than eliminate jobs (as already outlined in the example given) or removes the industry entirely from the US.

Also, if you are unable to see the rampant and insane government regulatory measures that are all around us then you are simply blind. You want specifics? I can offer TONS. Why don’t we start with the daycare that I own? Rather than simply ensuring that the environment is safe (something that the government does not even do) they instead regulate ridiculous things.
How you wipe a child’s ass is regulated (yes there is an actual regulation on wiping an ass)
The type of toys that you have. You are required a certain number of nesting, stacking puzzle and peg toys to name a few. This is asinine to the extreme considering that the amount that you have or activities that you do is completely overlooked to fill a check box on an inspection sheet. IOW, you could be completely lacking a proper environment BUT as long as you fill the check boxes, you are fine.
How the children are saved lunch (they are required to spoon out the portion themselves and god forbid that they don’t actually want it because you can get written up for that)
Dangerous practices that are required like washing FOOD WITH A BLEACH SOLUTION. Yes, we were required to put bleach on vegetables.
The temperature that comes out of the faucet is regulated as well as though that were a major safety concern. This gets particularly harry because the temps are essentially impossible to come up with as the bathroom has a max and the kitchen has a min.
That’s just a few but let’s move on to the aerospace maintenance industry where:
The type of carpet that is installed is regulated. Really, what safety measure does CARPETING cover?
The stands that we use are required to have open and closing doors. The previous requirement of railings apparently was not sufficient. This one is costing the government hundreds of millions right now.
Permit paperwork for entry into confined spaces takes up more time than many of the actual jobs take up meaning that a three man crew (required by other regulations for such a task) waits longer to fill out paperwork than actual productive time. Add to that the fact that ‘confined space is so ill defined that a three man crew is required to change something that you are not even entering such a space and you have a massive waste of resources.
Requirements for fall protection gear when enclosed in a stand that has full safety railing and zero chance for falling. Really asinine because it actually CREATES a hazard as you are dealing with lines all over the damn place that don’t need to be there.
More fall protection required when working in areas that do not have any reasonable falling hazard since they are so large but because they are 30 feet off the ground it is required anyway.
Have you ever dealt with a LOTO program? Any industrial area (at least in maintenance) requires this program. That means that you need to set up an entire training program, train your employees, provide the equipment and the proper stations/markings for this even if there is ZERO need for LOTO. In the several places that I have had to deal with the program, I have yet to see a single need for it. It was designed for a completely different environment but, because regulations are usually poorly written, we have had to maintain one.
I could go on but let’s go into some others. Construction is rather fun:
There are requirements for the number and placement of screws in steel track and stud framing. Asinine because those screws do NOTHING structurally. They exist solely to keep the stud in –place as you are placing the drywall in place as THAT is what provides the integrity (along with joint compound) for the basic walls.
Speaking of that, because you are regulated for the screws in your studs, you need a screw inspection that can hold entire projects in place until the inspector comes out and gives you the stamp.
Same thing goes for the drywall. There is a required screw inspection for that as well. Even in firewalls that are sheetrocked twice there are screw inspections required for the first layer. That is asinine considering the screws are going in that layer from the second. Because it is a box on an inspection list though, it needs to be accomplished.
Everything from the height of plugs and switches to the number of screws is regulated. 90 percent of that has NOTHING to do with safety or structural integrity.

There are more. Hundreds of thousands more but why bother. The asinine regulations that need to be eliminated are EVERYWHERE and if you choose not to see them then you are never going to see them. The government does not need to be getting involved in end product or its quality. The only place it belongs in is health and safety. Most regs have nothing but the most tenuous connection there though.

(I call bullshit. I've worked in a union shop for more than 30 years and have yet to see anything close to what you describe. When you have a resonable "un-straw man" argument please state it.)

It was a reasonable statement. I also never stated that all unions were destructive nor did I state that they all needed to be removed. Unions go out as they become disruptive and bring down an industry. Just because YOUR union shop does not operate like that does not mean that other union shops are not in that boat. I would guess that you do not operate in a government union shop. That would explain a lot, particularly considering that this thread is on a government union. There are stark differences in the two.

I would also venture a guess that your union is not one of the ones that captures an entire industry. That is another stark difference in many unions that are constructive vs. destructive.

(I work in a union shop and people have to apply and interview for EVERY promotion. And more often than not it is not the senior person who gets the job.)

Again, meaningless. Discount those parts that deal with union shops I have personally worked with if you don’t want to deal with those problems but that does nothing to address the meat of my statements – mainly in the first portion. The following statements were simply specific things that cause unions to be destructive. You asked for specifics in regulatory instances and I have now given some. Those were simply the same for unions. Just because some unions have practices that are destructive does not mean they all do in the same manner that not all regulations are not destructive.

I asked you to be specific and you did just that. I thank and applaud you. I don't care if we are in disagreement as long as you give me specific items to address. But on the other hand when you say you'll NEVER hear things like "In a nonunion shop, you are NOT going to hear the words ‘that is not my job’" that tells me that you are stating a fact that ALL nonunion shops are the same. So again I will call bullshit on that statement and ask you how you could possibly know that.

As for the rest of your post I will address only a few points you made.

On LOTO since I serve as a Safety Coordinator I am intimately familiar with LOTO. In fact in the utility industry we are exempt in OSHA 1910 from the LO part of it and only use the tagging for control of energy sources. But the point I want to make is that OSHA laws were written in the blood of the people who perform the labor in this nation. Every regulation was written in response to a serious injury or fatality to preven it from reoccuring. Does that mean that there's no overkill? Of course not. But these laws were written for a purpose. Better to have a little overkill than someone never getting to go home at the end of their shift.

The same thing applies to child and food safety. I confess I don't know why the carpet would be an issue but if you researched it you might come up with some sort of answer that would make you say, "Ah. I see."

 

[paulitician]

I will still waiting for Paulitician's backup of massive numbers of predator public teachers.

Where you been? Pick up a newspaper or watch the News once in awhile. Pervert Teachers are an awful plague on our Public Schools these days.

 

[DaGoose]

They enjoy other perks unique to their profession. But the bottom line is, Taxpayers cannot provide them with an endless flow of cash. So if you decide to work for a Tax-Funded institution, you have to accept the conditions. It's not the Private Sector. You're probably not gonna get rich. But you can live quite well.

No one is forced to work in the Public Sector. It's a choice. If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else. That's just the way it is. But for the love of God, quit all the bitchin & whining. The days of Teachers crying wolf are over. The Taxpayers are fed up. It's time for change.

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

I would not complain either if I was exempt from social security 15% tax rate on my net every year.
Social security mandates rob citizens. The return is less than zero.
I agree with you about teaching but tell me this. How come every other industrialized nation in the world requires teachers and students to go to school 12 months of the year?
And how are their test scores compared to ours in math and science?
Teachers and students need to be in school 12 months a year.

1) That is your opinion on SS and I strongly disagree with it. I get a kick out of people saying that "if I was exempt I would save on my own". But the facts do not support your theory that people would do that. Bottom line? It ain't happening. Take away SS and you'll see welfare expenditures go through the roof.

Social Security Keeps 20 Million Americans Out of Poverty: ? Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

2) Do you realize just how much education spending would increase with "year round school"? You would probably see your property taxes increase nearly 40% since that's where most of your school funding comes from. Boy, you would sure see the right wingers screaming then!!!!

 

[DaGoose]

I will still waiting for Paulitician's backup of massive numbers of predator public teachers.

Where you been? Pick up a newspaper or watch the News once in awhile. Pervert Teachers are an awful plague on our Public School these days.

Sorry. Gotta do better than that. Back up you claim please or admit you're wrong.

 

[paulitician]

(Of course you have numbers to back up your claim of "staggering number of pervert Teachers", right?)



I agree. How dare teachers complain about low wages when their average wages (for Bachelors and Masters Degrees) is in the mid 40's. Hmm....I wonder what other professions average with Bachelors and Masters degrees???

Teacher Salary - Average Teacher Salaries | PayScale

They enjoy other perks unique to their profession. But the bottom line is, Taxpayers cannot provide them with an endless flow of cash. So if you decide to work for a Tax-Funded institution, you have to accept the conditions. It's not the Private Sector. You're probably not gonna get rich. But you can live quite well.

No one is forced to work in the Public Sector. It's a choice. If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else. That's just the way it is. But for the love of God, quit all the bitchin & whining. The days of Teachers crying wolf are over. The Taxpayers are fed up. It's time for change.

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

All that, and you still managed to come off as a miserable whiner. Look, no one is forced to work for Taxpayer-funded Institutions. It's a choice. If you do make that choice, you have to accept the conditions. Taxpayers cannot provide Teachers with an endless flow of cash. That's just the way it is. You won't likely get rich working in the Public Sector. If you can't accept that, then move on and do something different. The Taxpayers are sick of all the endless whining. It is what it is.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Paulitician has failed in the comment about public school sex predators. Simply his opinion.

 

[DaGoose]

They enjoy other perks unique to their profession. But the bottom line is, Taxpayers cannot provide them with an endless flow of cash. So if you decide to work for a Tax-Funded institution, you have to accept the conditions. It's not the Private Sector. You're probably not gonna get rich. But you can live quite well.

No one is forced to work in the Public Sector. It's a choice. If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else. That's just the way it is. But for the love of God, quit all the bitchin & whining. The days of Teachers crying wolf are over. The Taxpayers are fed up. It's time for change.

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

All that, and you still managed to come off as a miserable whiner. Look, no one is forced to work for Taxpayer-funded Institutions. It's a choice. If you do make that choice, you have to accept the conditions. Taxpayers cannot provide Teachers with an endless flow of cash. That's just the way it is. You won't likely get rich working in the Public Sector. If you can't accept that, then move on and do something different. The Taxpayers are sick of all the endless whining. It is what it is.

Nope, wrong again my friend. The only people whining are the wingnuts.

You're talking out both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say that they have this incredible pay and benefit package from an "endless flow of cash". And then you turn around and say that teachers need to do it for around and say "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else" and that they'll never get rich. So which is it?

And to top it off you try and say that the taxpayers are "sick of it" which is just another attempt to pass off as fact something you just made up.

When asked to evaluate the schools in their own community, 48% give them an A or B, which is the highest rating in 20 years.

When asked to evaluate the school their oldest child attends, an astonishing 77% give it an A or B. This is the highest rating in 20 years. Only 6% give it a D or F.

When asked whether they have trust and confidence in teachers, 71% said yes.

Analyzing the new PDK/Gallup poll on how Americans view public education - The Answer Sheet - The Washington Post

Now....wanna try again?

 

[Hoffstra]

"Teachers from one of Wisconsin’s largest unions have jumped ship — voting overwhelmingly to abandon the group in the latest in a string of setbacks for the struggling labor movement following Gov. Scott Walker’s union overhaul two years ago.

The decision this week to disband by members of the Kenosha Education Association came after the organization was stripped of its certification and told it had lost its power to bargain for base wages with the district. The group was decertified after missing a key deadline in the annual reapplication process."



its a shame the OP didn't want us to know this.

 

[FJO]

Poorly performing teachers will support the union. Teachers who want the right to bargain on their own merits will reject the union.

Poorly performing plumbers/carpenters/police/firemen/nurses/clerks/mechanics/cooks/chefs/etc. support unions.

Poor performers of all sorts, who are too stupid and too lazy to speak for themselves support unions.

People who overvalue their own importance, but incompetent to prove their own worth support unions.

People who are unable to succeed on their own merit support unions.

Dopes who enjoy freeloading and feel good about it support unions.

Decent and honest people DO NOT support unions.

No teacher who cares about children would ever willingly be member of a union.

 

[FJO]

theres a district in Colorado that is trying to drop their Teacher Union altogether...the beat goes on.

Do they also want their children taught "creationism"?

Yup, that's the ones. They also teach that abstinence is the only form of birth control, gays are sub-human people, African Americans are ok as long as they're in their place and women do not belong in the workforce.

Those ideas have long been rejected by even the most conservative and whitest of Republicans.

Teaching intelligent Design (creationism) alongside of the equally ridiculous idea that things just evolved helter-skelter, haphazardly, would give a student a chance to compare philosophies and let him/her make up their own minds about it.

But as we all know, and have seen time after time, conservative thought is verboten in places of liberal indoctrination, laughingly called places of higher education, where long-haired punks like phony Indian Ward Churchill can spew all their hatred, but people like Ann Coulter and other conservatives are bombarded by pies and typical liberal intolerance.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Poorly performing teachers will support the union. Teachers who want the right to bargain on their own merits will reject the union.

Poorly performing plumbers/carpenters/police/firemen/nurses/clerks/mechanics/cooks/chefs/etc. support unions.

Poor performers of all sorts, who are too stupid and too lazy to speak for themselves support unions.

People who overvalue their own importance, but incompetent to prove their own worth support unions.

People who are unable to succeed on their own merit support unions.

Dopes who enjoy freeloading and feel good about it support unions.

Decent and honest people DO NOT support unions.

No teacher who cares about children would ever willingly be member of a union.

False. Now let's move on.

 

[DaGoose]

Poorly performing teachers will support the union. Teachers who want the right to bargain on their own merits will reject the union.

Poorly performing plumbers/carpenters/police/firemen/nurses/clerks/mechanics/cooks/chefs/etc. support unions.

Poor performers of all sorts, who are too stupid and too lazy to speak for themselves support unions.

People who overvalue their own importance, but incompetent to prove their own worth support unions.

People who are unable to succeed on their own merit support unions.

Dopes who enjoy freeloading and feel good about it support unions.

Decent and honest people DO NOT support unions.

No teacher who cares about children would ever willingly be member of a union.

This would be like me saying that.......

Racists who enjoy targeting blacks with racial slurs and feel good about it are Neo-Cons.

Decent and honest people would never support neo-cons, and

No person who is not a racist would ever willingly join the GOP.

But unlike you I know these above words of mine are ignorant and I won't stoop to making idiotic claims like you just did.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Paulitician has failed in the comment about public school sex predators. Simply his opinion.

And NOBODY knows more about failure than JakeTheFake!

 

[Gadawg73]

Do they also want their children taught "creationism"?

Yup, that's the ones. They also teach that abstinence is the only form of birth control, gays are sub-human people, African Americans are ok as long as they're in their place and women do not belong in the workforce.

Those ideas have long been rejected by even the most conservative and whitest of Republicans.

Teaching intelligent Design (creationism) alongside of the equally ridiculous idea that things just evolved helter-skelter, haphazardly, would give a student a chance to compare philosophies and let him/her make up their own minds about it.

But as we all know, and have seen time after time, conservative thought is verboten in places of liberal indoctrination, laughingly called places of higher education, where long-haired punks like phony Indian Ward Churchill can spew all their hatred, but people like Ann Coulter and other conservatives are bombarded by pies and typical liberal intolerance.

Evolution a ridiculous idea?
Surely you jest on that one.

 

[Gadawg73]

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

I would not complain either if I was exempt from social security 15% tax rate on my net every year.
Social security mandates rob citizens. The return is less than zero.
I agree with you about teaching but tell me this. How come every other industrialized nation in the world requires teachers and students to go to school 12 months of the year?
And how are their test scores compared to ours in math and science?
Teachers and students need to be in school 12 months a year.

Year round school would be better but it is not year round that causes us to lag in many indicators IMHO. There is not really a clear cut answer to this though. There are a thousand different systems and that means that there are a thousand different reasons that one is better or worse than ours. I think there are some intrinsic things that are always going to make us lag a bit like the fact that we require ALL students to complete K-12 where many school systems cut out the ones that do not achieve earlier. I would not want to see that changed because even if they are not cut out for a job that requires such education they still vote and need to be somewhat educated. That also cuts off later opportunity for some that just don’t fit in with the system rather than simply cannot be taught. That is one major issue that we have when talking about lagging schools vs. other nations.

The current school year was set up with summers off because of the agrarian society where kids needed the summers off to help with the farm and picking of the crops.
I oppose mandatory education. Most people I know with a college degree are educated far, far beyond their intelligence.

 

[Gadawg73]

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

I would not complain either if I was exempt from social security 15% tax rate on my net every year.
Social security mandates rob citizens. The return is less than zero.
I agree with you about teaching but tell me this. How come every other industrialized nation in the world requires teachers and students to go to school 12 months of the year?
And how are their test scores compared to ours in math and science?
Teachers and students need to be in school 12 months a year.

1) That is your opinion on SS and I strongly disagree with it. I get a kick out of people saying that "if I was exempt I would save on my own". But the facts do not support your theory that people would do that. Bottom line? It ain't happening. Take away SS and you'll see welfare expenditures go through the roof.

Social Security Keeps 20 Million Americans Out of Poverty: ? Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

2) Do you realize just how much education spending would increase with "year round school"? You would probably see your property taxes increase nearly 40% since that's where most of your school funding comes from. Boy, you would sure see the right wingers screaming then!!!!

LOL, you do not like that fact goose so you label it an opinion!
HAHAHA, come on man, you can do better than that.
That fact is SUPPORTED by your post that it keeps Americans out of poverty. Many Americans do get a pant load more than they paid because THEY PAID VERY LITTLE IN.
Wrong again goose, 12 month schools will educate more literate adults. Sure, property taxes will go up round 10%. The schools are already there and built. We pay the teachers NO MORE to work a full year so where is your 40% figure coming from? Made up?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Paulitician has failed in the comment about public school sex predators. Simply his opinion.

And NOBODY knows more about failure than JakeTheFake!

Yup, you really got me, podjo.

The fact remains that Paulitician and Jarlaxle believe their opinions are facts: silly goofs.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yup, Gadawag, that is your opinion and your opinion is not fact.

 

[DaGoose]

I would not complain either if I was exempt from social security 15% tax rate on my net every year.
Social security mandates rob citizens. The return is less than zero.
I agree with you about teaching but tell me this. How come every other industrialized nation in the world requires teachers and students to go to school 12 months of the year?
And how are their test scores compared to ours in math and science?
Teachers and students need to be in school 12 months a year.

1) That is your opinion on SS and I strongly disagree with it. I get a kick out of people saying that "if I was exempt I would save on my own". But the facts do not support your theory that people would do that. Bottom line? It ain't happening. Take away SS and you'll see welfare expenditures go through the roof.

Social Security Keeps 20 Million Americans Out of Poverty: ? Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

2) Do you realize just how much education spending would increase with "year round school"? You would probably see your property taxes increase nearly 40% since that's where most of your school funding comes from. Boy, you would sure see the right wingers screaming then!!!!

LOL, you do not like that fact goose so you label it an opinion!
HAHAHA, come on man, you can do better than that.

(What fact are you referring to?)

That fact is SUPPORTED by your post that it keeps Americans out of poverty. Many Americans do get a pant load more than they paid because THEY PAID VERY LITTLE IN.

(I was defending the existence of SS. One reason I did was because it does, in fact, keep Americans out of poverty as was supported by my link. So what's your point?)

Wrong again goose, 12 month schools will educate more literate adults. Sure, property taxes will go up round 10%. The schools are already there and built. We pay the teachers NO MORE to work a full year so where is your 40% figure coming from? Made up?

So you propose to keep teacher salaries the same and then try and force them to work beyond the 9 month salary that they currently get paid? AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. (You DO realize that teacher salaries are based on a 9 month pay scale, right? Why do you suppose that you are getting professionals with Bachelors and Masters degrees so cheaply?)

40% was an estimate I came up with based on a 25% pay increase for teachers. You then add on 3 more months of bus drivers, increased wear and tear on busses and fuel, support staff such as coaches, secretaries and cafeteria workers, more food for lunches and additional utility costs to cool the buildings.

You do realize that there is more to a 12 month school year than simply sending children out the door, right? So that explains where my 40% tax increase comes from.

And believe me when I say that I am not opposed to year round school. In fact if it came to a vote I would support it. But I'm also realistic enough to know that it will come at a cost.

Now.....please explain 1) how you're going to get the teachers to work an extra 3 months without compensating them and 2) how you came up with your 10% figure.