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Bullshit. The NVA had occupied large portions of Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand when I was there in '70. And when RSVN fell there was indeed the expected bloodbath both there and in Cambodia.
"died for a lie"? That is both wrong and sick. My bros. died accomplishing a mission given them by the American people via the government and military exactly the same as anyone else who has fought for this country.
dude your in denial.He is totally correct.
The american people did not want that war,many of them wisely defected to canada because they knew it was a fake and phony war.what you dont get is that wars mean big buiness for corporations which is why we have the wars going on in the middle east.He hit the nail right on the head.vietnam was an unnessary war and Johnson and Nixon were the ones thta murdered all those 58,000 bothers of yours,not the NVA or vietcong.They are tha mass murderers of them whether you want to face it or not.
Your claims are all over the map.
I work in a field with many Viet Nam vets and many stayed on in the military and their voices were heard as to the mistakes of that war. Many changes were made.
You are a complete fool to believe that the men that fought over there and saw their friends die DID NOT initiate total change in the military and the operations and strategy of war time. Of course there have been times when the President did not listen to boots on the ground such as Iraq II but it was not from some corporation making the decisions.
We know, we work in the field and many of my colleagues were there and other places and the boots on the ground NOW tell us what you claim is total bull shit.
So should I believe YOU or a 27 year old Marine Captain in the field in with THE FIFTH MARINE REGIMENT, 1ST MARINE DIVISION?
'
I will certainly trust 9/11 IJ over you, or your Marine captain, or anyone else who supports an out-of-control military murder-machine run by and for satanic war profiteers.
.
dude your in denial.He is totally correct.
The american people did not want that war,many of them wisely defected to canada because they knew it was a fake and phony war.what you dont get is that wars mean big buiness for corporations which is why we have the wars going on in the middle east.He hit the nail right on the head.vietnam was an unnessary war and Johnson and Nixon were the ones thta murdered all those 58,000 bothers of yours,not the NVA or vietcong.They are tha mass murderers of them whether you want to face it or not.
Your claims are all over the map.
I work in a field with many Viet Nam vets and many stayed on in the military and their voices were heard as to the mistakes of that war. Many changes were made.
You are a complete fool to believe that the men that fought over there and saw their friends die DID NOT initiate total change in the military and the operations and strategy of war time. Of course there have been times when the President did not listen to boots on the ground such as Iraq II but it was not from some corporation making the decisions.
We know, we work in the field and many of my colleagues were there and other places and the boots on the ground NOW tell us what you claim is total bull shit.
So should I believe YOU or a 27 year old Marine Captain in the field in with THE FIFTH MARINE REGIMENT, 1ST MARINE DIVISION?
There's little doubt that the military analyzed its position after Vietnam, and reached some constructive conclusions. The broader question is, how much has the political leadership of the US, and the population at large learned from such events? History repeats itself- the often quoted cliche goes, but in the case of the last few conflicts, this certainly applies.
In the cases of Iraq and Afghanistan, it has basically been a rerun of past history. Geopolitical gain is imagined, imperial adventure is desired, and the wheels set in motion, with little regard of expert advice, or even a glance at a history text. What politicians seemed to have learned from the past is that marketing is much more important than previously thought. Drafting millions of kids into the army, and giving the public a shabby and transparent cover story for the reason they are coming home in plastic bags is not going to cut it in the future. And so in stead of changing the concept of war, they have changed to concept of marketing it.
High numbers of casualities are no longer acceptable, and so technology is recruited to do as much work as possible. The current Drone program is a good example. No matter the number of innocent deaths on the "other" side, they can be spun in the media much more effectively than the deaths of US servicemen.
And the draft of course, is out. Vietnam proved that a majority, or at least a very large plurality of the public has a limited amount of patience for war, and most certainly for foolish wars. Drafting their kids to do the dirty work could provoke rebellion. The work would have to be left to volunteers, who at least notionally have the idea of supporting such national policies. Or, better yet, privatize war, and leave it for "employees". This moves things further out of the national consciousness, further buries unpleasantness from the media, and leaves the currently favourable impression that the market is taking care of things. The risk of such things is great for these folks, but they are getting paid in compensation that matches the danger-so the story goes.
For a public that has already- in large measure- lost interest in following world affairs, and have allowed intellectual pursuits to sink to a low priority, the assignment of war to a small minority, who have "chosen" their occupation anyway, further lulls the senses, and precludes the sort of masses in the streets protests seen during the Vietnam era.
In other words, you are not able to make a rational rebuttal of what I wrote.I fully believe you would trust the judgment that believes 9/11 was caused by the American government by the many posts I have read from you in the past.I will certainly trust 9/11 IJ over you, or your Marine captain, or anyone else who supports an out-of-control military murder-machine run by and for satanic war profiteers.
You are bat shit crazy.
Your claims are all over the map.
I work in a field with many Viet Nam vets and many stayed on in the military and their voices were heard as to the mistakes of that war. Many changes were made.
You are a complete fool to believe that the men that fought over there and saw their friends die DID NOT initiate total change in the military and the operations and strategy of war time. Of course there have been times when the President did not listen to boots on the ground such as Iraq II but it was not from some corporation making the decisions.
We know, we work in the field and many of my colleagues were there and other places and the boots on the ground NOW tell us what you claim is total bull shit.
So should I believe YOU or a 27 year old Marine Captain in the field in with THE FIFTH MARINE REGIMENT, 1ST MARINE DIVISION?
There's little doubt that the military analyzed its position after Vietnam, and reached some constructive conclusions. The broader question is, how much has the political leadership of the US, and the population at large learned from such events? History repeats itself- the often quoted cliche goes, but in the case of the last few conflicts, this certainly applies.
In the cases of Iraq and Afghanistan, it has basically been a rerun of past history. Geopolitical gain is imagined, imperial adventure is desired, and the wheels set in motion, with little regard of expert advice, or even a glance at a history text. What politicians seemed to have learned from the past is that marketing is much more important than previously thought. Drafting millions of kids into the army, and giving the public a shabby and transparent cover story for the reason they are coming home in plastic bags is not going to cut it in the future. And so in stead of changing the concept of war, they have changed to concept of marketing it.
High numbers of casualities are no longer acceptable, and so technology is recruited to do as much work as possible. The current Drone program is a good example. No matter the number of innocent deaths on the "other" side, they can be spun in the media much more effectively than the deaths of US servicemen.
And the draft of course, is out. Vietnam proved that a majority, or at least a very large plurality of the public has a limited amount of patience for war, and most certainly for foolish wars. Drafting their kids to do the dirty work could provoke rebellion. The work would have to be left to volunteers, who at least notionally have the idea of supporting such national policies. Or, better yet, privatize war, and leave it for "employees". This moves things further out of the national consciousness, further buries unpleasantness from the media, and leaves the currently favourable impression that the market is taking care of things. The risk of such things is great for these folks, but they are getting paid in compensation that matches the danger-so the story goes.
For a public that has already- in large measure- lost interest in following world affairs, and have allowed intellectual pursuits to sink to a low priority, the assignment of war to a small minority, who have "chosen" their occupation anyway, further lulls the senses, and precludes the sort of masses in the streets protests seen during the Vietnam era.
"imperial adventure"
If you are a career officer on the ground would you rather have an army of volunteers that want to be there or draftees that don't?
No brainer there. Volunteer military is always better trained, educated, skilled and motivated than a draftee military.
Which also leads to MORE career officers and MORE up the chain ideas, complaints, FUBAR advice, SNAFU preparedness and LESS decision making by government, politicians, bureaucrats and everyone and anyone else that is not in line with military strategy, planning and control.
Of course there are exceptions to that as military strikes are not predictable nor are the reasons why.
I do agree that most Americans sit here on their ass and Monday morning QB every move the military and government makes and they do not understand the reasons, sacrifices, commitments and numerous alliances and treaties we have.
There's little doubt that the military analyzed its position after Vietnam, and reached some constructive conclusions. The broader question is, how much has the political leadership of the US, and the population at large learned from such events? History repeats itself- the often quoted cliche goes, but in the case of the last few conflicts, this certainly applies.
In the cases of Iraq and Afghanistan, it has basically been a rerun of past history. Geopolitical gain is imagined, imperial adventure is desired, and the wheels set in motion, with little regard of expert advice, or even a glance at a history text. What politicians seemed to have learned from the past is that marketing is much more important than previously thought. Drafting millions of kids into the army, and giving the public a shabby and transparent cover story for the reason they are coming home in plastic bags is not going to cut it in the future. And so in stead of changing the concept of war, they have changed to concept of marketing it.
High numbers of casualities are no longer acceptable, and so technology is recruited to do as much work as possible. The current Drone program is a good example. No matter the number of innocent deaths on the "other" side, they can be spun in the media much more effectively than the deaths of US servicemen.
And the draft of course, is out. Vietnam proved that a majority, or at least a very large plurality of the public has a limited amount of patience for war, and most certainly for foolish wars. Drafting their kids to do the dirty work could provoke rebellion. The work would have to be left to volunteers, who at least notionally have the idea of supporting such national policies. Or, better yet, privatize war, and leave it for "employees". This moves things further out of the national consciousness, further buries unpleasantness from the media, and leaves the currently favourable impression that the market is taking care of things. The risk of such things is great for these folks, but they are getting paid in compensation that matches the danger-so the story goes.
For a public that has already- in large measure- lost interest in following world affairs, and have allowed intellectual pursuits to sink to a low priority, the assignment of war to a small minority, who have "chosen" their occupation anyway, further lulls the senses, and precludes the sort of masses in the streets protests seen during the Vietnam era.
"imperial adventure"
If you are a career officer on the ground would you rather have an army of volunteers that want to be there or draftees that don't?
No brainer there. Volunteer military is always better trained, educated, skilled and motivated than a draftee military.
Which also leads to MORE career officers and MORE up the chain ideas, complaints, FUBAR advice, SNAFU preparedness and LESS decision making by government, politicians, bureaucrats and everyone and anyone else that is not in line with military strategy, planning and control.
Of course there are exceptions to that as military strikes are not predictable nor are the reasons why.
I do agree that most Americans sit here on their ass and Monday morning QB every move the military and government makes and they do not understand the reasons, sacrifices, commitments and numerous alliances and treaties we have.
I believe we are mis-communicating here. Of course, a volunteer force is more efficient than draftees. My point is that the more a military force is divorced from the mass of society, the easier it is for politicians to pursue whatever self-serving or divergent geopolitical escapades they want, for whatever short-term narrow interest they want. If Private Johnny doesn't come marchin' home, questions will be asked across the land. If Contractor Johnny doesn't come marchin' home, because he signed up with Blackwater, made a shit-load of money, and then his luck ran out, much, much fewer questions are going to be asked. And that suits the aims of numerous folks in the US today.
If Vietnam had been run by a mix of a 40% volunteer military force, and 60% contracted civilians (highly paid), how differently do you think things may have turned out? The answer to that question strongly informs the policies of today.
but they aren't all that powerful. they use the tools they control. which is most of the universities and the media.the north vietnamese used to say they always knew they were assured of victory. what we don't win on the battlefield we will win in your universities, like berkley and columbia. We will win in your cities and through your journalists. and were they ever right.
Meaning, they were counting on free speech?
yea free speech. you know where journalists visited the POW's in Hanoi and reported how well the criminals were being treated but neglected to mention they were being tortured and killed.
'
I will certainly trust 9/11 IJ over you, or your Marine captain, or anyone else who supports an out-of-control military murder-machine run by and for satanic war profiteers.
.
I fully believe you would trust the judgment that believes 9/11 was caused by the American government by the many posts I have read from you in the past.
You are bat shit crazy.
March 28, 1973 all US troops were gone from Vietnam and the Vietnam Service Medal was no longer issued. This date was the real end of the Vietnam War.
but they aren't all that powerful. they use the tools they control. which is most of the universities and the media.
Where you need an education.
an education consists of presenting facts and only facts and letting you form your own opinion. What you support is refered to as an indoctrination
I was there in 1970. Thought of going back to see the changes
That's when I got there too, and went straight to I Corps where I stayed.
I'd like to go back too. In the meantime, you oughta check out Google Earth. You can see the changes, which are many.
I have looked at the Google Earth and it is unbelievable.
Check out Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall - The Virtual Wall (TM) it is a site that not only list kia's but also has stories from family members on some. I found it interesting.
Perhaps it is ignorant to imagine that our society could be anything but a "me-first society" -- considering the very low culture, intelligence, and characters of the people who purportedly "lead" us -- people who would never dream of sacrificing their children to the military meat-grinder.I agree with your thesis but the me first society we live in here today is the problem, not whether the military is drafted or not. People are ignorant.
Gunshots that eyewitnesses did not hear, including the National Guard. They never used this as an excuse for firing with live ammunition.
Untrue. In any case there has never been any dispute that the rioters were throwing rocks and bottles which can cause serious injury or death. Ever hear of "stoning"?
Ever hear of backing away? Ever hear of not firing into a general crowd because maybe a few were out of line? Ever heard that the US Army firing on US citizens is horrific? You guys who think the army wouldn't shoot resisters should remember this ghastly, tragic act.
And as for 'pistol shots', never had any info on that before, but if we admit they happened 70 seconds before....?!? Over a minute? Then nothing? Then we shoot young people expressing themselves as the Constitution provides? If the N. G. had not been there, who would have died?
The men who fired are criminal murderers and I hope they realize that fully everyday of their lives.
My brother and his buddies in country '66-'68 had a name for the death of their buddies over there:
WASTED.
And that is 100% correct. You can not fool the boots on the ground. They KNEW this was a political war ONLY.
Every soldier that gave his life in Nam had his life WASTED FOR NOTHING.
BULLSHIT. They died while serving their country carrying out the mission they were given exactly like our soldiers who died in any other conflict and they deserve exactly the same respect. It can be argued that the mission was not in fact worth the price but that is an entirely different argument.
All who are sent to fight in the military should know exactly what they are doing, and why. Otherwise, they simply become automatons, lethal weapons under the control and direction of others; "good Germans" who obey orders without question.
This was one of the bitter lessons of Vietnam. Sending draftees off to sacrifice themselves for political gamesmanship was no longer going to be a viable option. The population, or at least a significant portion of it, recognized the madness of sending kids to their deaths for a- completely wrong headed, as it turned out- global great game.
Military action should be an absolute last resort, after all else has failed. Unfortunately, this is a concept that has still not caught on, and the geopolitical games (and bitter defeats) continue, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places.
How Vietnam ended
With the deaths of 58,000 American soldiers and 1.1 million NVA soldiers and 1.2 million injured over absolutely nothing.
well for greedy evil people like the banksters and corporations it wasnt absolutely nothing sadly.
"Its disgusting the american sheople never leanred anything from vietnam and they STILL ignorantly put on that uniform and line themselves up for slaughter all in the ignorance thinking they are dying for a great cause and sering their country when in reality,they are only serving the purposes of the bankers and the corporations with them laughing at their stupidity while they profit over it." __________________
You must be one of those ignorant american sheople to be ignorant of the fact our troops fight for, and at the command of, the American people.
BULLSHIT. They died while serving their country carrying out the mission they were given exactly like our soldiers who died in any other conflict and they deserve exactly the same respect. It can be argued that the mission was not in fact worth the price but that is an entirely different argument.
All who are sent to fight in the military should know exactly what they are doing, and why. Otherwise, they simply become automatons, lethal weapons under the control and direction of others; "good Germans" who obey orders without question.
This was one of the bitter lessons of Vietnam. Sending draftees off to sacrifice themselves for political gamesmanship was no longer going to be a viable option. The population, or at least a significant portion of it, recognized the madness of sending kids to their deaths for a- completely wrong headed, as it turned out- global great game.
Military action should be an absolute last resort, after all else has failed. Unfortunately, this is a concept that has still not caught on, and the geopolitical games (and bitter defeats) continue, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places.
You obviously have no idea how a military is-or should be-run. Nor did Vietnam teach you a damn thing. You might also note that we won the "global great game" (the Cold War). We accomplished what we set out to do in Iraq and Afghanistan and they were obvious wins of battles in the War Against Terror. Your determination to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory does you no credit.