Was Winston Churchill a catastrophe?

[JakeStarkey]

Your revisionism is not well based.

Then the West should not have revised the history during the Cold War.

The failing student criticizes his betters here is all you are doing.

 

[Thunderbird]

The USSR did not invade Poland.

Only a lying Stalinist stooge would pretend Stalin didn't cooperate with his ally Hitler to carve up Poland.

The two dictators divided up the stolen territory: The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

The Poles, though outnumbered, bravely resisted the invaders:Battle of Szack

 

[Meathead]

Stalin is up there with Tamerlane, Genghis Khan and Pol Pot

Who the fuck cares where AMERICANS place whom on the list of their "history"?

Americans -- the nation that massacred more people than Hitler, Tamerlane, Genghis Khan and Pol Pot put together, and continue doing so!

PolesYear Poles % Total
1921 112,000 51 219,400

1989 9,500 1.2 790,908
2001 6,400 0.9 725,200


Many Poles moved to Lviv after the city was conquered by King Casimir in 1349. It became a major Polish cultural centre and this continued after the partitions of Poland.

Lviv was depolonised mainly through Soviet-arranged population exchange from 1944–46. [69] Those that remained found themselves having lost their state status and becoming an ethnic minority. By 1959 Poles made up only 4% of the population after Ukrainians, Russians and Jews.[69] The Polish population underwent significant assimilation; in 1989 40% considered Ukrainian as their mother tongue, 15% Russian.[69] During Soviet times two Polish schools continued to function: № 10 (with 8 grades) and № 24 (with 10 grades).[69]

In the 1980s the process of uniting groups into ethnic associations was allowed. In 1988 a Polish language newspaper was allowed («Gazeta Lwowska»).[70] The Polish population of the city continues to use the dialect of the Polish language known as Lwów dialect (Polish: gwara lwowska).[70]

Lviv - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stalin's record for mass murder is secure. Genghis Khan may have come close, but only in relative terms as there were far fewer people then.

Bite me.

 

[JakeStarkey]

1. Yup, because the Russians got their asses kicked (immaterial).
2. Yup, and some of Romania. (immaterial)
3. Russia invaded Poland, and the collapse had nothing to do with it, because the Germans and Russians had agreed to divide Poland.
4. Such orders were local and given by defeatists.

Your revisionist Russki "history" is fun to play with.

 

[Thunderbird]

I can not claim Churchill did not make mistakes militarily.

About your WWI point, you would have preferred the UK have stayed out of it? What is your idea of the map of Europe if the UK was neutral? And would that have been your desired outcome?

If the British had stayed out Germany would have prevailed in under a year. Europe would have been spared the disaster of WW I. Germany vs. Russia & France would have kept the balance on the continent. Russia would have lost some territory, but Russian potential was enormous. It could clearly have served as a counterweight to Germany.

A limited War of 1914 instead of the cataclysmic WW I
No WW II
No mass-murdering Soviet dictatorship
No Holocaust

 

[Meathead]

PolesYear Poles % Total
1921 112,000 51 219,400

1989 9,500 1.2 790,908
2001 6,400 0.9 725,200


Many Poles moved to Lviv after the city was conquered by King Casimir in 1349. It became a major Polish cultural centre and this continued after the partitions of Poland.

Lviv was depolonised mainly through Soviet-arranged population exchange from 1944–46. [69] Those that remained found themselves having lost their state status and becoming an ethnic minority.

Are you telling me it was normal for a city built by Galitchians to be almost 100% Polish and Jewish with less than 10% of its population the indigenous people?!

Yes, between 1944 and 1950-s there were few VOLUNTARY EXCHANGES of the population: Ukrainians were leaving Poland and returning to Ukraine, while Poles were leaving West Ukraine and returning to Poland.

You know why?

Because the indigenous population of West Ukraine hated Polish invaders so much, it organised genocide of Poles between 1941 and 1944! And Armia Krayova was doing the same regarding Ukrainians.

Under the circumstances, the best was to allow the two to choose where they wanted to live, in Poland or in Ukraine. What is your problem with that decision?

I am simply telling you that you have a very weak and a very dogmatic grasp of history. I would add two more things:

1) It boggles the mind that anyone, even the most insane among us, would defend someone as indefensible as Josef Stalin. He stands with Hitler in the annals of infamy.

2) When you feel pressure, stop pushing in the Q-tip.

 

[Thunderbird]

1. Did Poland annex West Ukraine and West Belarus in 1921-1922?

Did Russian imperialists steal that territory from Poland in the first place? Why do you assert the Russians have the right to that territory?

3. Did Polish government collapse on the 17-s of September 1939?

Did the Polish people fight the invaders?

Battle of Wytyczno

Battle of Grodno (1939)

Note the mass-murder committed by your fellow Communists after the battle.

 

[Toronado3800]

You opinion of the definition of invasion is very unique indeed then so much so I think you should no longer converse in English but use a translator.

It's not "my opinion".

Unless, you think that Poland had a God given right to annex other nations' lands and territories once annexed by Poland belong to it forever, even after it ceased to exist?

Then remember that bits of Poland itself belonged to various countries for few centuries.

In the larger sense Rome may have owned France at one point but if Italian troops marched into Paris to "retake" it, right or wrong that would be an invasion.

Remember this is primarily a U.S. based message board. One of the beautiful things about this country is we don't care is the Croats or Serbs think they are different people or if great x 8 grandpa slav once had an acre of land stolen from him. So....invasion means sending troops someplace to take something over or back over. You can launch an invasion to retake land bjt it is still am invasion.

Sorry for the cell phone lack of politeness and elequence.

 

[Toronado3800]

I can not claim Churchill did not make mistakes militarily.

About your WWI point, you would have preferred the UK have stayed out of it? What is your idea of the map of Europe if the UK was neutral? And would that have been your desired outcome?

If the British had stayed out Germany would have prevailed in under a year. Europe would have been spared the disaster of WW I. Germany vs. Russia & France would have kept the balance on the continent. Russia would have lost some territory, but Russian potential was enormous. It could clearly have served as a counterweight to Germany.

A limited War of 1914 instead of the cataclysmic WW I
No WW II
No mass-murdering Soviet dictatorship
No Holocaust

If the British had stayed out of WWI do you think the world with Germany stretching from Spain to the Urals would have been a better place?

My bias is VERY anti Germany. Two world wars, 20 years. In August of 45 I may have bombed Frankfurt to make my point to Stalin and the Japanese. The white folks there who can spot a Jew from a mile away symbolize what is wrong with humanity.

 

[Toronado3800]

1. Did Poland annex West Ukraine and West Belarus in 1921-1922?

Did Russian imperialists steal that territory from Poland in the first place? Why do you assert the Russians have the right to that territory?

3. Did Polish government collapse on the 17-s of September 1939?

Did the Polish people fight the invaders?

Battle of Wytyczno

Battle of Grodno (1939)

Note the mass-murder committed by your fellow Communists after the battle.

1. No. It was part of Rus (Russia), and even under Poles it retained its original name Chervona Rus until the 16-s century. So, using your terminology, it was Polish-lithuanian Empire that "stole" them territories from Russia in the 14-s century.

2. Poland as a STATE annexed the territories; Poland as a STATE signed the agreements; Poland as a STATE ceased to exist and became part of a German Rich -- a completely different STATE. It means, that the USSR was no longer under any obligation to stick to border agreements it had with Poland -- a STATE that DISAPPEARED.

That point 2 sir is a very fine line. Are you a lawyer? If the intent to divide Poland existed before the German invasion would that satisfy you?

Your whole line of reasoning seems like it would have he potential to be very self serving. Never buy anything from me on ebay.

 

[Meathead]

I am simply telling you that you have a very weak and a very dogmatic grasp of history. I would add two more things:

1) It boggles the mind that anyone, even the most insane among us, would defend someone as indefensible as Josef Stalin. He stands with Hitler in the annals of infamy.

2) When you feel pressure, stop pushing in the Q-tip.

And I simply put facts before you.

You have nothing to rebut them, so you resort to repeating twaddle inserted into your brains by Cold War propagandists, and make indignant noises that that twaddle does not coinside with the facts.

What is it that you disagree with:

1. That Lvov as well as the whole of Galitchina was part of Russia prior to Poles invading it in the 14-s century?

2. That it is not normal when indigenous people are forbidden to live in cities they erected in a first place?

3. That West Ukrainians committed genocide of Poles between 1941 and 1944 because they hated Poles so much?

4. That Poles displayed outstanding acts of cruelty towards indigenous population of Galitchina between 1922 and 1939 for which they became so hated?

5. That repatriation of both Ukrainians and Poles was voluntary and dictated by necessity to save them from each other?

Once again, you are showing your woefully weak grasp of history and your hatred of Poles for the role they played in the downfall of the Soviet Union. Lvov was founded by the Lendians, a Western Slavic peoples who were essentially Poles, and certainly not Eastern Slavs. The territory around Lvov was taken over by various powers over the years, but it's population remained majority Polish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lendians

Twaddle, as you put it, is denial that the USSR invaded Poland in accordance with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Twaddle is also imagining that Lvov was historically anything but a Polish dominated area until the aftermath of WW II. I suppose that would make revisionist communist history twaddle. I thought that had been abandoned by just about everyone, but I suppose that there are still some pathologically damaged people willing to delude themselves for the sake of outdated dogma.

Oh well, you are certainly unique. I don't doubt that there are a scattering of those that cannot except that the earth is not flat, That is perhaps the kindest thing I can say.

 

[Toronado3800]

1. In the larger sense Rome may have owned France at one point but if Italian troops marched into Paris to "retake" it, right or wrong that would be an invasion.

One of the beautiful things about this country is we don't care is the Croats or Serbs think they are different people or if great x 8 grandpa slav once had an acre of land stolen from him. So....invasion means sending troops someplace to take something over or back over. You can launch an invasion to retake land bjt it is still am invasion.

Sorry for the cell phone lack of politeness and elequence.

1. Precisely the point: just because Poland annexed West Ukraine and West Belarus in 1922, doesn't mean it has rights over these territories forever.

2. The beautiful thing about Americans is that you don't give a shit about any historic complexities of nations and states you can't even find on a map, yet you keep sending your troops there in ignorant notion that you know best.

O, and for your information, when Germany took over half the Europe, it became part of the Third Reich. So, on liberating Europe from Germans the allies had to INVADE the Third Reich (according to your definition). Do you advocate to return it all to Germany? Answer this.

For 2, correct. It is a liability sometimes but a blissfully youthful and optimistic one. Imagine if in the Middle East they forgot why their ancestors hated eachother.

Darn right we invaded Third Reich Germany and no I wouldn't give any land back to them. That is an obtuse European inbread family warefare notion. Germany did something terrible enough to warrant us going to war with them and mercifully Germany lost. I would have given East Germany to the Russians (I wish Poles) and West Germany to England and divided Italy up among the French and Balkin nations. They screwed up that bad.

Would it be the most humane thing to do? No. But I believe in punishments for stupid adults as well.

You?

 

[Meathead]

Lvov was founded by the Lendians, a Western Slavic peoples who were essentially Poles, and certainly not Eastern Slavs.

Fucking idiot, you can't even read what is written before you:

"... in the area of present-day Lviv..."

in pre-historic times!

There from your Wiki: "Lviv was founded by King Daniel of Galicia in the Ruthenian principality of Halych-Volhynia and named in honour of his son Lev."

Do you know who was Daniel of Galicia?
There: son of Roman Mstyslavich -- a Grand Prince of Kiev.
Do you know what Kiev was at the time?
There: Kiev was the capital city of Rus!


That's it, Meathead, I had enough of trying to converse with mentally challenged.

You have an abysmal grasp of history. I would be fascinated to find out what or where this "Galitchina" is or if you're also dyslexic and meant Gatchina, an adminstrative region far to the north near Saint Petersburg, which you probably still refer to as Leningrad.

The entire quote that you provided is thus:

Archeologists have demonstrated that the Lviv area was settled by the 5th century.[7] This fact places this settlement within the territory of once powerful state of White Chroatia. From the ninth century in the area of present-day Lviv, between Castle Hill and the river Poltva, there existed a Lendian settlement – in the tenth century the Lendians established a fortified settlement on Castle Hill.[8] In 1977 it was discovered that the Orthodox church of St. Nicholas had been built on a previously functioning cemetery.[9] In 981, the Cherven Towns area was captured by Vladimir I and fell under the rule of Kievan Rus.
[edit]
Halych-Volyn Principality

Lviv was founded by King Daniel of Galicia in the Ruthenian principality of Halych-Volhynia and named in honour of his son Lev.


Just because people all you on your obvious bull shit, that is no reason to become classless. You are all to obviously very misinformed and of limited intellect, but I will neither call you a fucking idiot nor mention mental defects. I really don't need to.

 

[Toronado3800]

For 2, correct. It is a liability sometimes but a blissfully youthful and optimistic one. Imagine if in the Middle East they forgot why their ancestors hated eachother.

Darn right we invaded Third Reich Germany and no I wouldn't give any land back to them. That is an obtuse European inbread family warefare notion. Germany did something terrible enough to warrant us going to war with them and mercifully Germany lost. I would have given East Germany to the Russians (I wish Poles) and West Germany to England and divided Italy up among the French and Balkin nations. They screwed up that bad.

Would it be the most humane thing to do? No. But I believe in punishments for stupid adults as well.

You?

What do I think about what you just posted? I think Americans should stick to what they understand.

Don't be mad at America. A bit if geographic isolation and a large amount of Europeans fleeing the old intolerant way of doing things have served us well.

Sure we have our own problems as our Irish and Poles and Italians can no longer tell a Croaat fron a Serb they move on to discriminating against Africans.

But we can dream of a day when no one goes to war any longer over land Richard III or the Turks Muslims Romans or Egyptians Persians or Greeks may have claim to.

 

[Toronado3800]

That point 2 sir is a very fine line. Are you a lawyer? If the intent to divide Poland existed before the German invasion would that satisfy you?

Your whole line of reasoning seems like it would have he potential to be very self serving. Never buy anything from me on ebay.

A lawyer? Whose "lawyer", American, British, Saudi Arabian, Turkish? Then again, "lawyer" of the 17-s century, 19-s century, current time? "Lawyer" in what, in criminal law, in industrial law? Or does the word "lawyer" have a magic effect on you? Or, maybe, you have an idea of how border agreements can be carried out between an existing and NON-EXISTING states?

Did you read the Pact? Where did you see an INTENT? There was a PROVISION in case of an invasion. That Germany will invade Poland was not a binome de Newton.

Besides, if you are all for an invader to keep the territories it invaded, why did US take part in liberating Europe? After all, what was the difference between Hitler annexing half the Europe and Poland annexing West Ukraine, West Belarus and part of Czechoslovakia?

Lawyer in the Biblical sense : someone who tries very hard to justify what is wrong.

On your topic of keeping territories:
The U.S. invaded Nazi Europe and liberated it. Were the Germans the rightful owners as the closestish inheritors of the Western Roman Empire? Who cares. The Nazis seemed like the bad guys at the time. Apparently Roosevelt and Churchill were the good guys.

Pretty nifty of American boys to die liberating France huh?

The bad guys in the case were the Germans who I said I would have punished considerably worse. Not the most moral of decisions or necessarily right but boy folks would have been scared of screwing up like Hitler.

But once.again Churchill.and Roosevelt played the good guys and more or less restored Germany and the other countries they could. Saint hood type stuff huh.

Perhaps they figures occupation would have cost too much. Perhaps after staring at evil that closely at Potsdam they were fearful of touchig the dark side.

Who knows. Anyways I said I would have divided up Germany and Italy among the victors. That was Germany's second strike.

 

[Toronado3800]

Don't be mad at America.

But we can dream of a day when no one goes to war any longer over land Richard III or the Turks Muslims Romans or Egyptians Persians or Greeks may have claim to.

After what it did to my country?! Sorry, I can't be but angry, very angry with Americans.

You can dream of whatever you like, but confine your dreams to your own borders. Because your dreams not grounded in reality bring nothing but death and destruction wherever you go.

What is your country?

I will admit it when America screws uo. It happens. Hell look at the uninspired genocide we pulled off 150 years ago.

But yeah, where are you from and my apologies for my bluntness but I am not a politician.

 

[Meathead]

Fucking idiot, you can't even read what is written before you:

"... in the area of present-day Lviv..."

in pre-historic times!

There from your Wiki: "Lviv was founded by King Daniel of Galicia in the Ruthenian principality of Halych-Volhynia and named in honour of his son Lev."

Do you know who was Daniel of Galicia?
There: son of Roman Mstyslavich -- a Grand Prince of Kiev.
Do you know what Kiev was at the time?
There: Kiev was the capital city of Rus!


That's it, Meathead, I had enough of trying to converse with mentally challenged.

I would be fascinated to find out what or where this "Galitchina" is or if you're also dyslexic and meant Gatchina, an adminstrative region far to the north near Saint Petersburg, which you probably still refer to as Leningrad.

The entire quote that you provided is thus:

Archeologists have demonstrated that the Lviv area was settled by the 5th century.[7] This fact places this settlement within the territory of once powerful state of White Chroatia. From the ninth century in the area of present-day Lviv, between Castle Hill and the river Poltva, there existed a Lendian settlement – in the tenth century the Lendians established a fortified settlement on Castle Hill.[8] In 1977 it was discovered that the Orthodox church of St. Nicholas had been built on a previously functioning cemetery.[9] In 981, the Cherven Towns area was captured by Vladimir I and fell under the rule of Kievan Rus.
[edit]
Halych-Volyn Principality

Lviv was founded by King Daniel of Galicia in the Ruthenian principality of Halych-Volhynia and named in honour of his son Lev.


Just because people all you on your obvious bull shit, that is no reason to become classless. You are all to obviously very misinformed and of limited intellect, but I will neither call you a fucking idiot nor mention mental defects. I really don't need to.

You want the proper name? Have it Галичина. Do you know that there is no such city in Russia as "Moscow"? There is Москва!

You are so infinitely stupid that you don't even take into account that transcriptions and transliterations of names onto other languages can never be 100% adequate!

What else do you object to? That Даниил Галицкий (that would be Daniel of Galicia in English) was a son of a Grand Duke of Киев (that would be Kiev in English)? Or that Kiev was a capital city of Русь (That would be Rus in English)?

Did you look up what "the Cherven Towns area" means? In your Wiki article it's a way to avoid its name -- Chervonaya RUS!!! Rus means just that -- Rus! Not "Poland", Not "Hungary", but Rus! There was one Rus, and at the time its capital was Kiev hence the TERM "Kievan Rus".
"Kievan Rus" is NOT a name of a country, it's a historic term coined by historians in the 19-s century

It's Red Ruthenia asshole. Cerny means red and Western Ruthenia was inhabited by Western Slavs, not the inferior Eastern Slavs. I imagine that you are a loser from East Ukraine or Russia where there are pockets of unreformed Stalinists, the most backward Europeans with the possible exception of Albanians. Communism collapsed because it simply could not compete. Get over it!

 

[MaryL]

Everyone has so far has made a valid point or two. Churchill was deeply flawed. But I can't imagine any other leader who opposed tyranny so much and so well fit the zeitgeist of the era. Would you folks find Hitler or Mussolini a more tolerable persona?

 

[Meathead]

It's Red Ruthenia

Русины -- Русь. That's RUSSIAN, you ignorant twat!

Piss off, idiot.

We have a lot of Ukrainians and Russians in Prague. They are only slightly better regarded than Roma. I've seen many Eastern Slavs and met more than a few. They tend to have slopping foreheads and be criminally inclined. It is a small wonder that communism collapsed with that caliber of citizenry. I understand. Good night you Stalinist dingbat.

 

[Toronado3800]

On your topic of keeping territories:
The U.S. invaded Nazi Europe and liberated it. Were the Germans the rightful owners as the closestish inheritors of the Western Roman Empire? Who cares. The Nazis seemed like the bad guys at the time. Apparently Roosevelt and Churchill were the good guys.

Pretty nifty of American boys to die liberating France huh?

The bad guys in the case were the Germans who I said I would have punished considerably worse. Not the most moral of decisions or necessarily right but boy folks would have been scared of screwing up like Hitler.

But once.again Churchill.and Roosevelt played the good guys and more or less restored Germany and the other countries they could. Saint hood type stuff huh.

Perhaps they figures occupation would have cost too much. Perhaps after staring at evil that closely at Potsdam they were fearful of touchig the dark side.

Who knows. Anyways I said I would have divided up Germany and Italy among the victors. That was Germany's second strike.

So, the "Germans" (I presume, German Nazis) were the bad guys? Where does it put US that on one hand was sending its citizens to fight Nazis, and on the other hand was supporting Nazis until 1944; and after the war was over took on the bulk of Nazis and Nazi collaborators to work in US CIA and setting up US Cold War propaganda?

The fact Charles Lindburgh was a sympathizer was already stated by me and all companies which found some legal or illegal way around embargos should have had the proper INDIVIDUALS tried and sentenced. Individuals as in responsible CEOs.

Far as the NAZIs taken in... That is a tough one. The cold war against Communism seemed plenty desperate at the time and I am not ready to hang the right wingers who saw a stray German or 1,000 as less of a threat than the monster Stalin who might have had the best land army in '45. I may have executed a few NAZI scientists despite setting back our whatever programs. But I understand the delima so I ride the fence.

The case for the U.S. taking soo long to get into the war because of Nazi sympathizers is very interesting. You bring up a valid point that not all Americans were good but I guess enough were to convince the boys to go die in Normandy and Anzio to liberate Europe or stop Hitler from coming across the ocean if you are very cynical.