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The benefit of allowing the market to determine the eventually fate of the aluminum and steel industry is the US economy will continue to expand and the nation will not be embroiled in a trade war in which there will be no winner.America should produce what it produces best and that is not steel nor aluminum. 1/3 of all steel used in the US and 90% of aluminum is imported despite the fact that there already are tariffs on 80% of the imports. The federal government has been propping up both these industries for years with tariffs, multi-billion loan guarantees and now more tariffs and they still won't be able to compete in the world markets.I think the American consumer has decided quite clearly that price is the number one consideration, not quality. And why shouldn't they? We're a throw away society.There is some truth to what you say, but it's not the driver.
The fact is that we have so many more things we buy today than we did in let's say 1970. In 1970, you had one landline phone, a color television set if you were lucky, a stereo with an 8-track player perhaps.
You expected to keep these items for many years, and maybe if something awful happened, pass them on to your heirs. Most families were one car families, and fast food was a delicacy and not a weekly staple. A movie? Put the family in the car and let's go to the drive-in a couple times a year.
Look at all the things we spend money on today: cell phone plan for the entire family including unlimited data, video games galore; several systems in many cases, pay per view, Netflix, cable or satellite television, satellite radio, computers, computer programs, internet.........
With all this new spending we have today, you have to get other items at a cheaper price. These items are no longer recreational, they are necessities today.
A few years ago, I rented a flat in England in a 178 year old house. How many houses in your neighborhood are that old. In that little village, they build homes to last and when a workman made repairs they were expected to last a life time.
The US economy is consumer driven which means buy it today and replace it tomorrow. Nobody is concerned with quality because it's going end up in a land fill in just a few years.
We can't compete with China on their terms. America needs to do what it does best and that's specially manufacturing, high tech services, innovative solutions, and local services.
SO you just want to give up on vast segments of the economy and all the jobs that go with it?
WHY? What is the gain to our citizens in doing that?
In the mid 20th century the steel and aluminum industry employed nearly a million people when our population was about half what it is now. Today steel and aluminium combined employs only about 150,000 workers less than 10% of what Walmart employs.
If tariffs and government handouts are the only way to make steel and aluminium producers competitive, the price is too high. There are far more people working in steel and aluminum fabricating than steel and aluminum plants. Metal fabricating is an industry that the US is competitive both in the US and abroad and relies on imported steel and aluminum because it is much cheaper than US made. The few jobs saved by the Trump tariffs in the steel and aluminum companies is likely to cost more jobs in the metal fabrication industry because they will face paying the Trump tariffs on their raw material and price pressure on their exports because other countries are applying tariffs to their products.
I asked you what the benefit was to American citizens, for giving up in all those jobs.
What you did was restate why you think it is too hard to fight for those jobs.
Again, list the benefit(s) you see.
When the US government protects an industry from foreign completion such as steel and aluminum with tariffs on imports, other countries respond by putting tariffs on US exports. While the US industries that can't compete in world markets are protected, other US industries that can compete suffer as will the economy due to foreign tariffs on US exports.
Tariffs reward industries that can't compete and punish those that can. It's that simple.
For example Trump tariffs on steel imports increase the cost of raw material for US steel fabricators because they either must pay the higher cost of US steel or pay tariffs on imported steel. They are also faced with tariffs from other countries on their products making them less competitive abroad.
Although steel companies in the US are protected by tariffs, does that mean there are real benefits over the long run? Studies have shown the answer is NO. Since the US tariffs on imports make the US market more profitable and import tariffs by foreign countries make foreign markets less profitable, the protected companies concentrate on the US markets where they have less completion. This of course pushes up prices in the US and consumers suffers. Once tariffs are lifted, the protected companies are even less able to compete in foreign market.
The bottom line is consumers and the most successful industries suffer in a tariff war while the least successful industries are rewarded.
I agree, all those things put pressure on steel but it does not explain why US production fell from 72% of world production after WWII to 24% in 1968 to 5% today.In the mid 20th century the steel and aluminum industry employed nearly a million people when our population was about half what it is now. Today steel and aluminium combined employs only about 150,000 workers less than 10% of what Walmart employs.
I think two things are part of that. For one, we abandoned steel and went to plastic for many items that used to be made from steel and like products. Everything is plastic today. In fact I have a cheap 9mm gun that's mostly plastic. Cars are plastic, trucks are plastic, gasoline cans are plastic, cigarette lighters are plastic, playground equipment is plastic, everything is plastic.
Secondly, automation is responsible for a lot of those lost jobs as well. A late friend of mine worked in the Cleveland steel mills for over 30 years. Until it came to his job, he never had the slightest interest in computers before. But to move up in the company, he had to learn against his will because the jobs required computer knowledge. And yes, computers are plastic too!
By 1980 the EU was the major producer of steel in the World producing about a third of the world's steel. This was due to the post WWII recover and automating steel production.
US companies began automating plants in the 1980's but they had already lost world leadership. At that time it took 10 US workers to produce a single metric ton of steel vs 6 in the EU. By 2010, it took 1.5 US workers to produce a metric ton. In 1980 China was a minor producer of steel.
By the year 2000, it was clear that US would never regain it's place as the world's largest producer of steel, which was largely due to the huge build up during WWII. Starting in the 1980's the US began increasing tariffs on imported steel and later goverment secured loans to the steel industry.
China's need for steel was growing rapidly. As a result, the Chinese goverment began pumping huge amounts of Capital into building and modernizing steel production. By 2007, China was both the largest producer and consumer of steel in the world and that has continued to this day.
No matter how much protection the US provides for steel producers, China will remain the world's leader in steel and with little impact on US production because:
what are the various types of steel - Google Search
- The Chinese steel industry has unlimited support from the Chinese goverment.
- China produces the lowest cost steel in the world due to the massive volume they produce and it's low labor rates.
- Lastly, US tariffs on Chinese steel imported to the US is not a significant percentage of Chinese steel production. China produces more steel than the entire rest of the world combined and is consuming about 45% of total world production.
List of countries by steel production - Wikipedia
History of the iron and steel industry in the United States - Wikipedia
Most of what you're saying is just not true. Our trading partners aren't coming after us. They are just responding to actions Trump has taken.The benefit of allowing the market to determine the eventually fate of the aluminum and steel industry is the US economy will continue to expand and the nation will not be embroiled in a trade war in which there will be no winner.America should produce what it produces best and that is not steel nor aluminum. 1/3 of all steel used in the US and 90% of aluminum is imported despite the fact that there already are tariffs on 80% of the imports. The federal government has been propping up both these industries for years with tariffs, multi-billion loan guarantees and now more tariffs and they still won't be able to compete in the world markets.I think the American consumer has decided quite clearly that price is the number one consideration, not quality. And why shouldn't they? We're a throw away society.
A few years ago, I rented a flat in England in a 178 year old house. How many houses in your neighborhood are that old. In that little village, they build homes to last and when a workman made repairs they were expected to last a life time.
The US economy is consumer driven which means buy it today and replace it tomorrow. Nobody is concerned with quality because it's going end up in a land fill in just a few years.
We can't compete with China on their terms. America needs to do what it does best and that's specially manufacturing, high tech services, innovative solutions, and local services.
SO you just want to give up on vast segments of the economy and all the jobs that go with it?
WHY? What is the gain to our citizens in doing that?
In the mid 20th century the steel and aluminum industry employed nearly a million people when our population was about half what it is now. Today steel and aluminium combined employs only about 150,000 workers less than 10% of what Walmart employs.
If tariffs and government handouts are the only way to make steel and aluminium producers competitive, the price is too high. There are far more people working in steel and aluminum fabricating than steel and aluminum plants. Metal fabricating is an industry that the US is competitive both in the US and abroad and relies on imported steel and aluminum because it is much cheaper than US made. The few jobs saved by the Trump tariffs in the steel and aluminum companies is likely to cost more jobs in the metal fabrication industry because they will face paying the Trump tariffs on their raw material and price pressure on their exports because other countries are applying tariffs to their products.
I asked you what the benefit was to American citizens, for giving up in all those jobs.
What you did was restate why you think it is too hard to fight for those jobs.
Again, list the benefit(s) you see.
When the US government protects an industry from foreign completion such as steel and aluminum with tariffs on imports, other countries respond by putting tariffs on US exports. While the US industries that can't compete in world markets are protected, other US industries that can compete suffer as will the economy due to foreign tariffs on US exports.
Tariffs reward industries that can't compete and punish those that can. It's that simple.
For example Trump tariffs on steel imports increase the cost of raw material for US steel fabricators because they either must pay the higher cost of US steel or pay tariffs on imported steel. They are also faced with tariffs from other countries on their products making them less competitive abroad.
Although steel companies in the US are protected by tariffs, does that mean there are real benefits over the long run? Studies have shown the answer is NO. Since the US tariffs on imports make the US market more profitable and import tariffs by foreign countries make foreign markets less profitable, the protected companies concentrate on the US markets where they have less completion. This of course pushes up prices in the US and consumers suffers. Once tariffs are lifted, the protected companies are even less able to compete in foreign market.
The bottom line is consumers and the most successful industries suffer in a tariff war while the least successful industries are rewarded.
Our trading "partners" have come at all our industries, with blood in their eyes.
If we continue to just lie there and let them do as they want, they will just continue to take more and more.
Better a trade war that burns it all down, then continuing on this course.
Ask yourself, why would our trading partners risk such a war?
What benefit do they see in that?
Most of what you're saying is just not true. Our trading partners aren't coming after us. They are just responding to actions Trump has taken.
Trump is right in pointing out that trade deficits are bad but he's dead wrong in assuming trade deficits are a result cheating by our trading partners.
In the world of international trade, tariffs are the nuclear option, the option of last resort for several reasons.
First, it forces the other country to respond in kind.
Second, there are always unintended consequences; that is the tariff may protect a certain industry by restricting imports but it will invariable hurt another industry that needs those imports to maintain profits.
Third there are a number of other options, that can be used that are less likely to start a trade war and more likely to lead to positive negotiations. Unfortunately, those options are technical and not likely to score any political points for the president.
Are you 10 years old?Most of what you're saying is just not true. Our trading partners aren't coming after us. They are just responding to actions Trump has taken.The benefit of allowing the market to determine the eventually fate of the aluminum and steel industry is the US economy will continue to expand and the nation will not be embroiled in a trade war in which there will be no winner.America should produce what it produces best and that is not steel nor aluminum. 1/3 of all steel used in the US and 90% of aluminum is imported despite the fact that there already are tariffs on 80% of the imports. The federal government has been propping up both these industries for years with tariffs, multi-billion loan guarantees and now more tariffs and they still won't be able to compete in the world markets.SO you just want to give up on vast segments of the economy and all the jobs that go with it?
WHY? What is the gain to our citizens in doing that?
In the mid 20th century the steel and aluminum industry employed nearly a million people when our population was about half what it is now. Today steel and aluminium combined employs only about 150,000 workers less than 10% of what Walmart employs.
If tariffs and government handouts are the only way to make steel and aluminium producers competitive, the price is too high. There are far more people working in steel and aluminum fabricating than steel and aluminum plants. Metal fabricating is an industry that the US is competitive both in the US and abroad and relies on imported steel and aluminum because it is much cheaper than US made. The few jobs saved by the Trump tariffs in the steel and aluminum companies is likely to cost more jobs in the metal fabrication industry because they will face paying the Trump tariffs on their raw material and price pressure on their exports because other countries are applying tariffs to their products.
I asked you what the benefit was to American citizens, for giving up in all those jobs.
What you did was restate why you think it is too hard to fight for those jobs.
Again, list the benefit(s) you see.
When the US government protects an industry from foreign completion such as steel and aluminum with tariffs on imports, other countries respond by putting tariffs on US exports. While the US industries that can't compete in world markets are protected, other US industries that can compete suffer as will the economy due to foreign tariffs on US exports.
Tariffs reward industries that can't compete and punish those that can. It's that simple.
For example Trump tariffs on steel imports increase the cost of raw material for US steel fabricators because they either must pay the higher cost of US steel or pay tariffs on imported steel. They are also faced with tariffs from other countries on their products making them less competitive abroad.
Although steel companies in the US are protected by tariffs, does that mean there are real benefits over the long run? Studies have shown the answer is NO. Since the US tariffs on imports make the US market more profitable and import tariffs by foreign countries make foreign markets less profitable, the protected companies concentrate on the US markets where they have less completion. This of course pushes up prices in the US and consumers suffers. Once tariffs are lifted, the protected companies are even less able to compete in foreign market.
The bottom line is consumers and the most successful industries suffer in a tariff war while the least successful industries are rewarded.
Our trading "partners" have come at all our industries, with blood in their eyes.
If we continue to just lie there and let them do as they want, they will just continue to take more and more.
Better a trade war that burns it all down, then continuing on this course.
Ask yourself, why would our trading partners risk such a war?
What benefit do they see in that?
Trump is right in pointing out that trade deficits are bad but he's dead wrong in assuming trade deficits are a result cheating by our trading partners.
In the world of international trade, tariffs are the nuclear option, the option of last resort for several reasons. First, it forces the other country to respond in kind. Second, there are always unintended consequences; that is the tariff may protect a certain industry by restricting imports but it will invariable hurt another industry that needs those imports to maintain profits. Third there are a number of other options, that can be used that are less likely to start a trade war and more likely to lead to positive negotiations. Unfortunately, those options are technical and not likely to score any political points for the president.
I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
Or buy a Speed Queen, and it lasts 25 years instead of 7.I'll play
Lets see.... A typical washer cost lets say....... $500... So, now they cost $585.. The said washer likely has a useful life of say....... 7 years.
So they cost a whopping ~$12 dollars more a year, or $1 a month more while at the same time POTUS is putting America first.
Cry me a river......
-Geaux
I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
4% unemployment, more jobs than people to fill them and 108 straight months of economic expansion...those bastards, how dare they do this to us? How can a country survive with such terrible economic numbers.
Isn’t that a good thing?I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
4% unemployment, more jobs than people to fill them and 108 straight months of economic expansion...those bastards, how dare they do this to us? How can a country survive with such terrible economic numbers.
Generations of wage stagnation, so bad that white life expectancy is actually DROPPING.
Speed Queen.I looked at a new washer today. It looked like it had good features. It was $420
The mil of metal on the box was not thick enough for me.
I went to take my old washer to the dump, and the "box" part came off, and the tub was still standing there. That thing worked for 25 years, with a stick wedged in the lid switch.
Isn’t that a good thing?I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
4% unemployment, more jobs than people to fill them and 108 straight months of economic expansion...those bastards, how dare they do this to us? How can a country survive with such terrible economic numbers.
Generations of wage stagnation, so bad that white life expectancy is actually DROPPING.
I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
4% unemployment, more jobs than people to fill them and 108 straight months of economic expansion...those bastards, how dare they do this to us? How can a country survive with such terrible economic numbers.
Generations of wage stagnation, so bad that white life expectancy is actually DROPPING.
It is easy to blame the large trade deficit on foreign governments that block the sale of U.S. products in their markets, which hurts American businesses and lowers their employees’ standard of living. It’s also easy to blame foreign governments that subsidize their exports to the U.S., which hurts the businesses and employees that lose sales to foreign suppliers (though U.S. households as a whole benefit when foreign governments subsidize what American consumers buy).Most of what you're saying is just not true. Our trading partners aren't coming after us. They are just responding to actions Trump has taken.
I am not referring to just since Trump took office. I am talking about generations of predatory trade policies, like that seen with Airbus.
Trump Right on Trade Predators
"Richard Evans of British Aerospace explained: “Airbus is going to attack the Americans, including Boeing, until they bleed and scream.” And another executive said, “If Airbus has to give away planes, we will do it.” "
And do I even have to talk about the Chinese?!
Trump is right in pointing out that trade deficits are bad but he's dead wrong in assuming trade deficits are a result cheating by our trading partners.
Why do you assume he is assuming? Maybe he seriously looked at the issue and thought about it deeply, if quickly, and concluded based on the evidence that they are cheating.
In the world of international trade, tariffs are the nuclear option, the option of last resort for several reasons.
It's been decades. The Rust Belt looks like a war zone. The working poor are so squeezed that White Life spans are actually DROPPING.
First, it forces the other country to respond in kind.
No, it does not.
The leaders of our Trading "Partners" have a choice, allow for more balanced trade, or risk a trade war.
They are supposed to be so much more adult and professional and smarter than Trump.
So, why are they risking a global trade war?
They must think they are really, hugely benefiting from the status quo to risk it.
Second, there are always unintended consequences; that is the tariff may protect a certain industry by restricting imports but it will invariable hurt another industry that needs those imports to maintain profits.
I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
And our we asking so much? If the trade deficit dropped to a still massive and huge 150 billion a year, Trump would go down in history as one of the greatest Presidents, and coast though re-election.
Why the strong pushback? Why are THEY risking a global trade war?
Third there are a number of other options, that can be used that are less likely to start a trade war and more likely to lead to positive negotiations. Unfortunately, those options are technical and not likely to score any political points for the president.
Bullshit. People are dying from the economic stress caused by this shit. We need strong and aggressive action NOW.
I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
4% unemployment, more jobs than people to fill them and 108 straight months of economic expansion...those bastards, how dare they do this to us? How can a country survive with such terrible economic numbers.
I don't know what that has to do with the price of rice in China, but all trading partners should be playing by the same set of rules, don't you think?
After all, we had a huge trade deficit during the recession as well.
I don't know what that has to do with the price of rice in China, but all trading partners should be playing by the same set of rules, don't you think?
And we do, you are kidding yourself if you think we do not have tariffs or that we do not subsidize certain industries.
After all, we had a huge trade deficit during the recession as well.
Actually our trade deficit shrunk greatly during the last recession, because people could not afford to buy things. So it seems maybe a large trade deficit is the sign of a good economy.
I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
4% unemployment, more jobs than people to fill them and 108 straight months of economic expansion...those bastards, how dare they do this to us? How can a country survive with such terrible economic numbers.
Generations of wage stagnation, so bad that white life expectancy is actually DROPPING.
Evolution, those that can’t adapt are left behind.
Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
It is easy to blame the large trade deficit on foreign governments that block the sale of U.S. products in their markets, which hurts American businesses and lowers their employees’ standard of living. It’s also easy to blame foreign governments that subsidize their exports to the U.S., which hurts the businesses and employees that lose sales to foreign suppliers (though U.S. households as a whole benefit when foreign governments subsidize what American consumers buy).Most of what you're saying is just not true. Our trading partners aren't coming after us. They are just responding to actions Trump has taken.
I am not referring to just since Trump took office. I am talking about generations of predatory trade policies, like that seen with Airbus.
Trump Right on Trade Predators
"Richard Evans of British Aerospace explained: “Airbus is going to attack the Americans, including Boeing, until they bleed and scream.” And another executive said, “If Airbus has to give away planes, we will do it.” "
And do I even have to talk about the Chinese?!
Trump is right in pointing out that trade deficits are bad but he's dead wrong in assuming trade deficits are a result cheating by our trading partners.
Why do you assume he is assuming? Maybe he seriously looked at the issue and thought about it deeply, if quickly, and concluded based on the evidence that they are cheating.
In the world of international trade, tariffs are the nuclear option, the option of last resort for several reasons.
It's been decades. The Rust Belt looks like a war zone. The working poor are so squeezed that White Life spans are actually DROPPING.
First, it forces the other country to respond in kind.
No, it does not.
The leaders of our Trading "Partners" have a choice, allow for more balanced trade, or risk a trade war.
They are supposed to be so much more adult and professional and smarter than Trump.
So, why are they risking a global trade war?
They must think they are really, hugely benefiting from the status quo to risk it.
Second, there are always unintended consequences; that is the tariff may protect a certain industry by restricting imports but it will invariable hurt another industry that needs those imports to maintain profits.
I'm sure there will be some examples of that. But it is a price we have to pay. Allowing our trading "partners" to benefit so hugely at our expense is not sane.
And our we asking so much? If the trade deficit dropped to a still massive and huge 150 billion a year, Trump would go down in history as one of the greatest Presidents, and coast though re-election.
Why the strong pushback? Why are THEY risking a global trade war?
Third there are a number of other options, that can be used that are less likely to start a trade war and more likely to lead to positive negotiations. Unfortunately, those options are technical and not likely to score any political points for the president.
Bullshit. People are dying from the economic stress caused by this shit. We need strong and aggressive action NOW.
But foreign import barriers and exports subsidies aren’t the reason for the U.S. trade deficit. The real reason is that Americans are spending more than they produce. The overall trade deficit is the result of the saving and investment decisions of U.S. households and businesses. The policies of foreign governments affect only how that deficit is divided among America’s trading partners.
The reason why Americans’ saving and investment decisions drive the overall trade deficit is straightforward: If a country saves more of total output than it invests in business equipment and structures, it has extra output to sell to the rest of the world. In other words, saving minus investment equals exports minus imports — a fundamental accounting identity that is true for every country in every year.
So reducing the U.S. trade deficit requires Americans to save more or invest less. On their own, policies that open other countries’ markets to U.S. products, or close U.S. markets to foreign products, won’t change the overall trade balance.
The U.S. has been able to sustain a trade deficit every year for more than three decades because foreigners are willing to lend it the money to finance its net purchases, by purchasing U.S. bonds and stocks or investing in U.S. real estate and other businesses. There is no guarantee that this will continue in the decades ahead; but there is also no reason why it should come to an end. While foreign entities that lend to U.S. borrowers will want to be repaid some day, others can take their place as the next generation of lenders.
The real reason for the trade deficit? Our spending habits
