We already know know Trump can't rein in govt spending, so what plan do the Dems have to lower spending?

[candycorn]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There is no plan from the Democrats . There is no plan from any quarter. We may have to sell off Yellowstone to get close to balancing the books.

The current Republicans are not fiscally responsible. The last president to balance the budget was Bill Clinton, every since then the deficit has increased and not president, not even Bush or Obama, has balanced the budget.

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

 

[Markle]

How about we actually collect taxes from people like trump?

Did he do anything illegal? No. So your problem is with the entire tax code. Fine, change it.

What you are leaving out is the thousands of employees working for any of 500 companies his organization owns who pay taxes both Federal and Local. How is that bad for our country?

 

[Markle]

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

As you know, forty-seven percent of households pay no Federal Income Taxes. I agree, that 53% should pay their "fair share", whatever that is.

 

[Papageorgio]

Cutting social security and Medicare would hurt this nation worse than anything. People who are not rich but worked their butts off their when life would have nothing. If they get sick those that made the cuts would have to deal with the carnage.

It would be gradual, they wouldn't end it immediately, it would take 60 plus years to wean America off the programs. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea or not.

 

[candycorn]

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

As you know, forty-seven percent of households pay no Federal Income Taxes. I agree, that 53% should pay their "fair share", whatever that is.

It won't be pleasant and it won't be quick...

 

[Dragonlady]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

No one has a plan, because the American people are unwilling to take the hit.

The bottom line is, entitlements MUST be cut. And they won't be. The moment they try and cut Social Security, or Medicare, the public will have a toddler level temper tantrum, until things get so bad that they have no choice.

We've had two specific chances to tackle this problem, and the public simply doesn't care about math, and facts.... they "feel" like they deserve these things, and therefore they'll vote anyone into office who will tell them what they want to hear, whether it is true or not.

The first chance we had, was Bush in the 2000s. Bush was going to allow privatization of Social Security. This is what Chile does, and this what Singapore does, and it works.

Instead of a Ponzi scheme, where young people pay for old people, until the money runs out and the system implodes, everyone will have their own money, in their own account, with their own investments. Then it doesn't matter if the government runs a deficit or not, because you have your own money in your own account with your name on it.

Bush got rolled on this. People opposed it, and it was shot down.

The second chance was Greece.

Greece had the exact same problem. People warned Greece that their pension system was completely unsustainable. They warned them over and over, there isn't money for all these benefits. They warned them in the 1990s, all the way until the pension system ran out of money, the health care system ran out of money, the mass transit system ran out of money, the education system ran out of money, the government went into default, and nearly the entire country fell into ruins.

That was our warning shot. That was the sign from G-d in the sky, warning people this does not work.

And we didn't learn anything.

So I don't know what exactly is going to happen, but at this point if we had two clear chances to fix the system, then I don't know could possibly happen in the future, that will prevent a future crash. I don't know what will have to happen in this country, to make people wake up and realize that socialism doesn't work because you run out of other people's money.

My guess is, that what will have to happen, is that we will either have a crisis in the bond market, and that will wake people up (a crisis in the bond market means people refuse to lend money to the US government), or we will have insane inflation, that will harm the economy and result in a depression.

And there is a chance that we actually have default. That is still a possibility, where everything tied to government just gets cut, and we'll see retirees outside banks, on the ground crying. We'll see hospitals closed, with patients on the steps outside, like we did in Greece.

That is a real possiblity, but I wager one of the other two things will happen. Who knows. We'll see.

How about we actually collect taxes from people like trump?

Because it doesn't work. It's never worked in all human history. The French tried it.

Millionaires canât seem to flee this European country fast enough

There was a surge in high-net-worth individuals moving country last year.

www.marketwatch.com

The wealth tax in France, resulted in hundreds of thousands leaving France.

New York City loses hundreds of billions in wealth as rich residents skip town

Many rich residents fled to the suburbs or vacation homes to escape the densely-populated city.

www.foxbusiness.com

Wealthy are leaving NYC.

Wealthy buyers reportedly in 'mad rush' to leave San Francisco

Amid the depths of a global pandemic and financial downturn, the demand for real estate...

www.sfgate.com

Wealthy are leaving California.

Where the rich Venezuelans fled to after crisis

In the wake of Venezuela’s economic crisis, millions of people are fleeing.

www.news.com.au

Rich left Venezuela.

And I could list thousands of other examples. Why did Apple open a major branch in Ireland? Because at the time the US corporate tax rate was 35%, and Ireland's was 12.5%. So they moved operations there instead of elsewhere.

The idea of making other people pay for what you want.... has never worked in all human history.

Name one country with massive welfare programs, that does not tax the poor and middle class to pay for it?

Seriously, if your system worked, why has not a single country done it? Why are the poor and middle class of Denmark paying 40% to 60% of their income in taxes? Why didn't they just make all the super rich in Denmark, like Lars Larsen the muilti-billionaire retail store businessman, pay for everything? Why are people flipping burgers paying 40% of their income in taxes in Denmark?

Because your system doesn't work. Never has. Never. Not one time. Every single dollar that is paid out in government benefits, at some point come from the employees.

Just like how they say "employer side tax", is not paid by employers. It's paid by employees. Employers simply pay employees less in wages, to pay the "employer side tax". Employees pay the taxes. No the rich.

The rich will never pay more in tax. If the tax rate is too high, they hide their money.

View attachment 396130

One of the most well known graphs in economics. The amount of money collected, verses the marginal tax rates.

Notice a pattern there? When they jacked up the taxes on the rich, the amount of actual money collected was never significantly higher, than when the rates were lower.

Your system doesn't work. If there is any conclusive, undeniable fact, in economics... it is that your system of "Make others pay for it" does not work. Never has. Never will.

If you want more and more social programs, and social spending, you will have to drastically increase taxes on the poor and middle class. Trying to get it from the rich, just won't work. We've tried that throughout the world, for a hundred years. Doesn't work.

Worked fine for us when we did it. Works fine in Scandinavia. People like Trump shouldn’t be paying 0 or almost nothing.

It

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There are two pillars of fiscal responsibility. One is to increase your revenue to meet expenses. The other is to eliminate UNNECESSARY SPENDING.

They'll cut defence the bloated and totally unnecessary defence spending budget. They'll stop construction on Trump's border wall, and eliminate the concentration camps on the border. There is a lot of pork and waste going to Big Oil, Big Pharma, and the military industrial complex.

Then they'll increase revenues. First by raising the corporate tax to 28%, and closing the loopholes which allow the most profitable company in the world, Amazon, to pay no taxes. Next they'll cancel the Trump tax cuts for the super wealthy. 80% of Trump's tax cuts went to the top 10%. That cancellation will raise the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans.

Most importantly, Democrats will raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour, and reinstate Obama's overtime mandate for low wage "managers". This will reduce the need for Section 8 housing assitance, SNAP benefits, and other income supports for low wage workers, both increasing taxes paid by working Americans, and reducing the need for income supports for minimum wage workers.

Republicans are always critical of "tax and spend" Democrats. But notice that the "tax" comes before the "spending" by Democrats. When Democrats introduce a public program, they create a means to fund the program. When Republicans create a program (MediCare Part D), they add it to the government credit card.

Republicans "cut and spend". They cut taxes for millionaires, and then spend like drunken sailors to mitigate the economic damage done to the economy by doing so. Republicans then claim that the increased revenues generated by the government spending, demonstrate the benefits to the economy of the tax cuts. Both the tax cuts, and the increased government spending, are added to the deficit.

Republicans say that the "tax cuts will pay for themselves". The Office of Budget Management has said that no tax cut in the history of the nation, has EVER paid for itself. Republicans say that "tax cuts create jobs". The Labor Department has said that tax cuts do NOT create jobs. The increases in the labor market following Republican tax cuts is because of increased government spending on the military, and infrastructure following the tax cuts, which creates the jobs.

Every large Republican tax cut and spending spree has been followed by an economic collapse, each worse than the last. Trump has the largest economic collapse since the Great Depression, and the pain and unemployement is rising, now that government payroll assistance has ended.

Americans are just starting to feel the economic pain.

The Democrats didn't do these things under Obama so what makes you think they would under Biden?

Democrats didn't do these things because Republicans held the House and the Senate, and Mitch McConnell refuses to pass any legislation to make these things possible. After November 3rd, Democrats will have the House, the Senate and the White House.

Republicans have proven over and over again that they are utterly lacking in the ability to run the country, or manage the economy. 40 years after Roosevelt's New Deal, Americans were living the "American Dream". LBJ's War against Poverty lifted millions of Americans out of poverty through opportunity and education, and the United States was the world's leading superpower with a powerhouse economy.

40 years of Republican public policy and tax codes has seen 80% of the wealth and income of the nation flowing to the wealthiest corporations and individual. That's up from 40% when Reagan took office. Republicans have created the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world - all of it upward, from the working and middle class to the wealthy.

40 years of Republican public policy and state management have reduced the standing of the USA in education, infrastructure, and standard of living versus the rest of the world. You are the only country in the first world with declining life expectancy. It's gone down in each of the past 5 years BEFORE covid19 killed more Americans than any other nation on earth.

Obama had the House and Senate from 2008-2010 and lost it because of them not doing what the public wanted. You want to try again? I tire of this Republican did this and that BS. Why are Democrats such poor victims? Reagan was the downfall of America, that's the stupid chant. Never in Reagan's 8 years did he hold both houses of Congress. The Democrats had at least the House of the Senate. Another pesky fact, since 1933, or 87 years, the Democrats have held the Presidency 48 years, the Senate 62 years and the House 66 years. The Democrats have held the Presidency, the Senate and the House for 34 years, while the Republicans have had that advantage 8 times.

So please, the Democrats have had most the power and have had the policies for a lot longer than the Republicans, yet you blame the Republicans.

Reagan and O'Neill cut the loopholes out of the tax codes and as the years have progressed both Democrats and Republicans have added them back.

Your whole diatribe is based on nothing factual, just your opinion, which with $5 will get you coffee at Starbucks.

Repubs have held more in recent years and it hasn’t been good...

It hasn't been good since the 30's. We tax and spend and then spend more. We can't seem to spend fast enough. Washington is the rich making laws for the rich, then throw crumbs at the masses and they think it is great. We need to rid ourselves of spenders and taxers. We need responsible leadership and neither party has supplied that for decades.

The United States, post the New Deal, created the most prosperous economy in world history. With much of Europe and Japan in ruins from WWII, Americans got rich helping them rebuild.

When you tax and spend on your people, your are investing in your nation. Investments in education, infrastructure, and research, create an well trained and prepared work force which allows people to contribute to best of their ability, and infrastructure to provide every business needs to create goods and services and bring them to market, and research to help the country keep pace with the latest scientific advancements.

Investments in universal health care have paid bonus dollars for our nation. Everybody who wanted a test, got a test. People paid NOTHING out of pocket for testing or treatment so the moment they got sick, they got tested and treated, slowing the spread of the disease.

In the USA, a trip to emergency costs $1000 out of pocket. In Canada, it costs $0 out of pocket. Anybody who gets a sniffle here, gets tested. Right away. We don't wait, or try to save the money. We go.

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

Congress controls all spending. See article I of the Constitution. The Pres submits a budget for each fiscal year, but Congress has the final say. The Pres can veto any law passed by Congress, but the veto can be overridden by a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress.

Which hasn't happened. Trump has signed off on every penny of debt.

Now the (D)'s say they will raise the taxes on the rich, along with many other things does need done to address the debt but they likely won't.

Trump fiscally is a disaster that is the good news, the bad news is he is probably better than the New Green Deal Democrats. Dems will raise taxes on the rich and find a shortfall, so debt will go up or the middle class will pay.

You are fooling yourself if you think the middle class isn't going to have to pay anyway around it.

The middle class always pays.

Not in Canada, where I live. The rich pay here.

Actually, this federal government has raised taxes on Canada’s middle class: op-ed

Ottawa eliminated several tax credits.

www.fraserinstitute.org

9.2.4 Tax brackets and rates - Canada.ca

Learn about tax brackets in Canada and Quebec. Calculate your average federal tax rate and marginal federal tax rate.

www.canada.ca

9.2.4 Tax brackets and rates - Canada.ca

Learn about tax brackets in Canada and Quebec. Calculate your average federal tax rate and marginal federal tax rate.

www.canada.ca

Federal Income Tax Brackets for Tax Years 2019 and 2020 - SmartAsset

Federal income tax brackets are adjusted every year for inflation. They're slightly higher for Tax Year 2020 than Tax Year 2019. Read on for both tables.

smartasset.com

.

Not seeing much of a difference between the two as far as middle class goes. I think you believe what your government spoon feeds you.

Your sources are the Fraser Insitute. The Fraser Institute makes the Heritage Foundation look like a commie front. They're very popular with fools like you, because they give you false information about Canadian politics. The Fraser wants to completely eliminate public health care and public education.

They conduct studies using specious methods. They surveyed Canadian doctors asking what percentage of their patients went to the USA for treatment. None of the multiple choice answers available was 0%. The lowest percentage available was "Under 1%". The Fraser then with great fanfare, published a study which falsely claimed that 30,000 Canadians were going to the USA every year for treatment, claiming their survey of Canadian doctors showed that just under 1% of Canadians went to the USA for treatment.

Several posters on this forum have repeatedly cited this study as proof that the US health care system is "better" than ours. Unbiased studies have routine said that somewhere around 15,000 Canadians seek treatment in the USA each year. Most of those who seek treatment are people who have become sick or injured while travelling to the USA on business or vacation. We also have a lot of Snowbirds wintering in Arizona and Florida.

I do have another friend who suffered a heart attack while in Florida, on business. They got him emergency treatment and flew him home by air ambulance for treatment in Toronto. He's a Manulife Insurance Vice -President, and the first thing his wife said to me was "Why would we get him treated in the US when we live around the corner from the Schulich Heart Centre on the Sunnybrook Hospital Campus.

And one of the women on my charter vacation to Aspen skiing broke her ankle on the slopes and got treatment. Happened on her first day there. I felt sorry for her.

In Canada, the top 10% of wealth Canadians don't get 80% of the income and wealth of the nation. They get 40%. In Norway, it's 50%. In the USA, it's 80%. Norway and Canada both have a higher standard of living, better healthcare, better education, and more opportunities for working people than the USA.

If you're going to try to compare Canada and the USA in terms of taxes, and government services, you'd better find some better sources to make your case. I'll just close with this:

Canada's middle class richest in study of big nations

New York Times study says Canadians have likely pulled ahead of Americans

www.theglobeandmail.com

Then there's this from the Pew Research Centre:

1. The middle class is large in many Western European countries, but it is losing ground in places

A large majority of adults in the selected Western European countries live in middle-income households. In 2010, the shares of adults who are middle

www.pewresearch.org

The USA has more lower income people than Europe, and more rich people than Europe, and fewer middle income people that any of them. Canada has one of the fast growing middle classes in the first world, while the American middle class is smaller than either and shrinking at both ends.

We were talking about taxation rates and my two other links that you conveniently ignored showed the middle class in the US and Canada pay roughly the same rate. So if you have nothing on that part of my post, I’m good with that. The rest of your hyperbole is nothing more than trying to distract that you were wrong on taxation rates, because it doesn’t fit your agenda.

I have no issue with you living in Canada, I prefer the states over Canada, you like Canada. I like the goods and services I get in the US, you seem to not like them, then you might want to consider you and your friends not subjecting yourselves to America, since all you do is bitch about my country.

The taxes paid by the Middle Class in Canada, include their health care. American Middle Class taxes don't include health insurance, which costs a family of four an additional $18,000 per year in the USA, on average. We also don't have co-pays or maximuim payments for health care, so more money in our pockets.

The USA has nothing comparable to OAS is a $628.25/mo payment all Canadians over the age of 65 receive, if they have lived in Canada for at least 40 years. No it's not like Social Security. That would be our Canada Pension Plan. OAS requires no contribution, or work history, and everybody over the age of 65 qualifies. Even if you're a millionaire. Canada Pension Plan is like Social Security. You only get it if you worked and you contributed. You can take it at any time between age 60 and 70, but it you take it at age 60, you get less than at 65, where it max

You seem to be especially ignorant of life in Canada. There are no goods or services available in the USA that are not available in Canada. In fact, prostitution and pot, both which are illegal in the USA, are legal in Canada. We have a LOT of stuff up here, you can't get in the USA. Abortions are covered in our health care, as is birth control. We have day care programs here for middle class families.

 

[candycorn]

Cutting social security and Medicare would hurt this nation worse than anything. People who are not rich but worked their butts off their when life would have nothing. If they get sick those that made the cuts would have to deal with the carnage.

It would be gradual, they wouldn't end it immediately, it would take 60 plus years to wean America off the programs. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea or not.

I think of all of the non-starters, that is the most non-starter-ist of them all. We just have to raise taxes across the board to pay for the government we've come to expect.

 

[LeftofLeft]

I

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

Congress controls all spending. See article I of the Constitution. The Pres submits a budget for each fiscal year, but Congress has the final say. The Pres can veto any law passed by Congress, but the veto can be overridden by a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress.

Which hasn't happened. Trump has signed off on every penny of debt.

Now the (D)'s say they will raise the taxes on the rich, along with many other things does need done to address the debt but they likely won't.

Raising taxes on the rich only serves to stiff the Middle Class. With continued spending, the Democrats will simply blame Trump while they do it.

Under Trump it is Trump's debt.

Debt is debt. It’s US Debt and a President gets measured how he manages it.

 

[Markle]

All the dems need is Biden and 51 votes in the Senate.

In that event, we can kiss the country as we know it, goodbye.

 

[Papageorgio]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There is no plan from the Democrats . There is no plan from any quarter. We may have to sell off Yellowstone to get close to balancing the books.

The current Republicans are not fiscally responsible. The last president to balance the budget was Bill Clinton, every since then the deficit has increased and not president, not even Bush or Obama, has balanced the budget.

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

If wages rise, taxes rise, if you get a 10% pay raise, your taxes should go up 10%, if not, then taxes stay the same. That everything is getting more expensive means that people should be getting raises to offset higher prices, businesses that make more money pay more taxes, people making more money means they pay higher taxes. Pretty easy concept. If I am making $30 per hour this year and $30 per hour next year, may taxes should remain the same.

The tax code is a mess, the deductions, write offs, the tax credits, all need to go. We can simplify it by what you make, your tax rate and payment due. We don't need deductions, write offs, and all the other BS.

 

[candycorn]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There is no plan from the Democrats . There is no plan from any quarter. We may have to sell off Yellowstone to get close to balancing the books.

The current Republicans are not fiscally responsible. The last president to balance the budget was Bill Clinton, every since then the deficit has increased and not president, not even Bush or Obama, has balanced the budget.

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

If wages rise, taxes rise, if you get a 10% pay raise, your taxes should go up 10%, if not, then taxes stay the same. That everything is getting more expensive means that people should be getting raises to offset higher prices, businesses that make more money pay more taxes, people making more money means they pay higher taxes. Pretty easy concept. If I am making $30 per hour this year and $30 per hour next year, may taxes should remain the same.

The tax code is a mess, the deductions, write offs, the tax credits, all need to go. We can simplify it by what you make, your tax rate and payment due. We don't need deductions, write offs, and all the other BS.

I can't find much to argue with there. If you listen to NPR's All things considered...you can hear a story about how a wooden arrow toy maker got a tax break on making wooden arrow toys that the makers of actual hunting arrows do not get. Its a mess. Of course you'll also hear in the same report that the program that allowed businesses to write off losses from last year on this year's taxes went from being able to be done for one year (meaning that if you had a bad year in 1935 and a great year in 1936, you could claim a deduction based on 1935's losses) was expanded to two years (meaning that 1937's taxes could also be lessened due to losses in 1935) to, in 2017, for forever (meaning that Trump's losses from decades ago still decrease his tax liability today). You may not like that.

 

[Papageorgio]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

No one has a plan, because the American people are unwilling to take the hit.

The bottom line is, entitlements MUST be cut. And they won't be. The moment they try and cut Social Security, or Medicare, the public will have a toddler level temper tantrum, until things get so bad that they have no choice.

We've had two specific chances to tackle this problem, and the public simply doesn't care about math, and facts.... they "feel" like they deserve these things, and therefore they'll vote anyone into office who will tell them what they want to hear, whether it is true or not.

The first chance we had, was Bush in the 2000s. Bush was going to allow privatization of Social Security. This is what Chile does, and this what Singapore does, and it works.

Instead of a Ponzi scheme, where young people pay for old people, until the money runs out and the system implodes, everyone will have their own money, in their own account, with their own investments. Then it doesn't matter if the government runs a deficit or not, because you have your own money in your own account with your name on it.

Bush got rolled on this. People opposed it, and it was shot down.

The second chance was Greece.

Greece had the exact same problem. People warned Greece that their pension system was completely unsustainable. They warned them over and over, there isn't money for all these benefits. They warned them in the 1990s, all the way until the pension system ran out of money, the health care system ran out of money, the mass transit system ran out of money, the education system ran out of money, the government went into default, and nearly the entire country fell into ruins.

That was our warning shot. That was the sign from G-d in the sky, warning people this does not work.

And we didn't learn anything.

So I don't know what exactly is going to happen, but at this point if we had two clear chances to fix the system, then I don't know could possibly happen in the future, that will prevent a future crash. I don't know what will have to happen in this country, to make people wake up and realize that socialism doesn't work because you run out of other people's money.

My guess is, that what will have to happen, is that we will either have a crisis in the bond market, and that will wake people up (a crisis in the bond market means people refuse to lend money to the US government), or we will have insane inflation, that will harm the economy and result in a depression.

And there is a chance that we actually have default. That is still a possibility, where everything tied to government just gets cut, and we'll see retirees outside banks, on the ground crying. We'll see hospitals closed, with patients on the steps outside, like we did in Greece.

That is a real possiblity, but I wager one of the other two things will happen. Who knows. We'll see.

How about we actually collect taxes from people like trump?

Because it doesn't work. It's never worked in all human history. The French tried it.

Millionaires canât seem to flee this European country fast enough

There was a surge in high-net-worth individuals moving country last year.

www.marketwatch.com

The wealth tax in France, resulted in hundreds of thousands leaving France.

New York City loses hundreds of billions in wealth as rich residents skip town

Many rich residents fled to the suburbs or vacation homes to escape the densely-populated city.

www.foxbusiness.com

Wealthy are leaving NYC.

Wealthy buyers reportedly in 'mad rush' to leave San Francisco

Amid the depths of a global pandemic and financial downturn, the demand for real estate...

www.sfgate.com

Wealthy are leaving California.

Where the rich Venezuelans fled to after crisis

In the wake of Venezuela’s economic crisis, millions of people are fleeing.

www.news.com.au

Rich left Venezuela.

And I could list thousands of other examples. Why did Apple open a major branch in Ireland? Because at the time the US corporate tax rate was 35%, and Ireland's was 12.5%. So they moved operations there instead of elsewhere.

The idea of making other people pay for what you want.... has never worked in all human history.

Name one country with massive welfare programs, that does not tax the poor and middle class to pay for it?

Seriously, if your system worked, why has not a single country done it? Why are the poor and middle class of Denmark paying 40% to 60% of their income in taxes? Why didn't they just make all the super rich in Denmark, like Lars Larsen the muilti-billionaire retail store businessman, pay for everything? Why are people flipping burgers paying 40% of their income in taxes in Denmark?

Because your system doesn't work. Never has. Never. Not one time. Every single dollar that is paid out in government benefits, at some point come from the employees.

Just like how they say "employer side tax", is not paid by employers. It's paid by employees. Employers simply pay employees less in wages, to pay the "employer side tax". Employees pay the taxes. No the rich.

The rich will never pay more in tax. If the tax rate is too high, they hide their money.

View attachment 396130

One of the most well known graphs in economics. The amount of money collected, verses the marginal tax rates.

Notice a pattern there? When they jacked up the taxes on the rich, the amount of actual money collected was never significantly higher, than when the rates were lower.

Your system doesn't work. If there is any conclusive, undeniable fact, in economics... it is that your system of "Make others pay for it" does not work. Never has. Never will.

If you want more and more social programs, and social spending, you will have to drastically increase taxes on the poor and middle class. Trying to get it from the rich, just won't work. We've tried that throughout the world, for a hundred years. Doesn't work.

Worked fine for us when we did it. Works fine in Scandinavia. People like Trump shouldn’t be paying 0 or almost nothing.

It

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There are two pillars of fiscal responsibility. One is to increase your revenue to meet expenses. The other is to eliminate UNNECESSARY SPENDING.

They'll cut defence the bloated and totally unnecessary defence spending budget. They'll stop construction on Trump's border wall, and eliminate the concentration camps on the border. There is a lot of pork and waste going to Big Oil, Big Pharma, and the military industrial complex.

Then they'll increase revenues. First by raising the corporate tax to 28%, and closing the loopholes which allow the most profitable company in the world, Amazon, to pay no taxes. Next they'll cancel the Trump tax cuts for the super wealthy. 80% of Trump's tax cuts went to the top 10%. That cancellation will raise the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans.

Most importantly, Democrats will raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour, and reinstate Obama's overtime mandate for low wage "managers". This will reduce the need for Section 8 housing assitance, SNAP benefits, and other income supports for low wage workers, both increasing taxes paid by working Americans, and reducing the need for income supports for minimum wage workers.

Republicans are always critical of "tax and spend" Democrats. But notice that the "tax" comes before the "spending" by Democrats. When Democrats introduce a public program, they create a means to fund the program. When Republicans create a program (MediCare Part D), they add it to the government credit card.

Republicans "cut and spend". They cut taxes for millionaires, and then spend like drunken sailors to mitigate the economic damage done to the economy by doing so. Republicans then claim that the increased revenues generated by the government spending, demonstrate the benefits to the economy of the tax cuts. Both the tax cuts, and the increased government spending, are added to the deficit.

Republicans say that the "tax cuts will pay for themselves". The Office of Budget Management has said that no tax cut in the history of the nation, has EVER paid for itself. Republicans say that "tax cuts create jobs". The Labor Department has said that tax cuts do NOT create jobs. The increases in the labor market following Republican tax cuts is because of increased government spending on the military, and infrastructure following the tax cuts, which creates the jobs.

Every large Republican tax cut and spending spree has been followed by an economic collapse, each worse than the last. Trump has the largest economic collapse since the Great Depression, and the pain and unemployement is rising, now that government payroll assistance has ended.

Americans are just starting to feel the economic pain.

The Democrats didn't do these things under Obama so what makes you think they would under Biden?

Democrats didn't do these things because Republicans held the House and the Senate, and Mitch McConnell refuses to pass any legislation to make these things possible. After November 3rd, Democrats will have the House, the Senate and the White House.

Republicans have proven over and over again that they are utterly lacking in the ability to run the country, or manage the economy. 40 years after Roosevelt's New Deal, Americans were living the "American Dream". LBJ's War against Poverty lifted millions of Americans out of poverty through opportunity and education, and the United States was the world's leading superpower with a powerhouse economy.

40 years of Republican public policy and tax codes has seen 80% of the wealth and income of the nation flowing to the wealthiest corporations and individual. That's up from 40% when Reagan took office. Republicans have created the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world - all of it upward, from the working and middle class to the wealthy.

40 years of Republican public policy and state management have reduced the standing of the USA in education, infrastructure, and standard of living versus the rest of the world. You are the only country in the first world with declining life expectancy. It's gone down in each of the past 5 years BEFORE covid19 killed more Americans than any other nation on earth.

Obama had the House and Senate from 2008-2010 and lost it because of them not doing what the public wanted. You want to try again? I tire of this Republican did this and that BS. Why are Democrats such poor victims? Reagan was the downfall of America, that's the stupid chant. Never in Reagan's 8 years did he hold both houses of Congress. The Democrats had at least the House of the Senate. Another pesky fact, since 1933, or 87 years, the Democrats have held the Presidency 48 years, the Senate 62 years and the House 66 years. The Democrats have held the Presidency, the Senate and the House for 34 years, while the Republicans have had that advantage 8 times.

So please, the Democrats have had most the power and have had the policies for a lot longer than the Republicans, yet you blame the Republicans.

Reagan and O'Neill cut the loopholes out of the tax codes and as the years have progressed both Democrats and Republicans have added them back.

Your whole diatribe is based on nothing factual, just your opinion, which with $5 will get you coffee at Starbucks.

Repubs have held more in recent years and it hasn’t been good...

It hasn't been good since the 30's. We tax and spend and then spend more. We can't seem to spend fast enough. Washington is the rich making laws for the rich, then throw crumbs at the masses and they think it is great. We need to rid ourselves of spenders and taxers. We need responsible leadership and neither party has supplied that for decades.

The United States, post the New Deal, created the most prosperous economy in world history. With much of Europe and Japan in ruins from WWII, Americans got rich helping them rebuild.

When you tax and spend on your people, your are investing in your nation. Investments in education, infrastructure, and research, create an well trained and prepared work force which allows people to contribute to best of their ability, and infrastructure to provide every business needs to create goods and services and bring them to market, and research to help the country keep pace with the latest scientific advancements.

Investments in universal health care have paid bonus dollars for our nation. Everybody who wanted a test, got a test. People paid NOTHING out of pocket for testing or treatment so the moment they got sick, they got tested and treated, slowing the spread of the disease.

In the USA, a trip to emergency costs $1000 out of pocket. In Canada, it costs $0 out of pocket. Anybody who gets a sniffle here, gets tested. Right away. We don't wait, or try to save the money. We go.

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

Congress controls all spending. See article I of the Constitution. The Pres submits a budget for each fiscal year, but Congress has the final say. The Pres can veto any law passed by Congress, but the veto can be overridden by a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress.

Which hasn't happened. Trump has signed off on every penny of debt.

Now the (D)'s say they will raise the taxes on the rich, along with many other things does need done to address the debt but they likely won't.

Trump fiscally is a disaster that is the good news, the bad news is he is probably better than the New Green Deal Democrats. Dems will raise taxes on the rich and find a shortfall, so debt will go up or the middle class will pay.

You are fooling yourself if you think the middle class isn't going to have to pay anyway around it.

The middle class always pays.

Not in Canada, where I live. The rich pay here.

Actually, this federal government has raised taxes on Canada’s middle class: op-ed

Ottawa eliminated several tax credits.

www.fraserinstitute.org

9.2.4 Tax brackets and rates - Canada.ca

Learn about tax brackets in Canada and Quebec. Calculate your average federal tax rate and marginal federal tax rate.

www.canada.ca

9.2.4 Tax brackets and rates - Canada.ca

Learn about tax brackets in Canada and Quebec. Calculate your average federal tax rate and marginal federal tax rate.

www.canada.ca

Federal Income Tax Brackets for Tax Years 2019 and 2020 - SmartAsset

Federal income tax brackets are adjusted every year for inflation. They're slightly higher for Tax Year 2020 than Tax Year 2019. Read on for both tables.

smartasset.com

.

Not seeing much of a difference between the two as far as middle class goes. I think you believe what your government spoon feeds you.

Your sources are the Fraser Insitute. The Fraser Institute makes the Heritage Foundation look like a commie front. They're very popular with fools like you, because they give you false information about Canadian politics. The Fraser wants to completely eliminate public health care and public education.

They conduct studies using specious methods. They surveyed Canadian doctors asking what percentage of their patients went to the USA for treatment. None of the multiple choice answers available was 0%. The lowest percentage available was "Under 1%". The Fraser then with great fanfare, published a study which falsely claimed that 30,000 Canadians were going to the USA every year for treatment, claiming their survey of Canadian doctors showed that just under 1% of Canadians went to the USA for treatment.

Several posters on this forum have repeatedly cited this study as proof that the US health care system is "better" than ours. Unbiased studies have routine said that somewhere around 15,000 Canadians seek treatment in the USA each year. Most of those who seek treatment are people who have become sick or injured while travelling to the USA on business or vacation. We also have a lot of Snowbirds wintering in Arizona and Florida.

I do have another friend who suffered a heart attack while in Florida, on business. They got him emergency treatment and flew him home by air ambulance for treatment in Toronto. He's a Manulife Insurance Vice -President, and the first thing his wife said to me was "Why would we get him treated in the US when we live around the corner from the Schulich Heart Centre on the Sunnybrook Hospital Campus.

And one of the women on my charter vacation to Aspen skiing broke her ankle on the slopes and got treatment. Happened on her first day there. I felt sorry for her.

In Canada, the top 10% of wealth Canadians don't get 80% of the income and wealth of the nation. They get 40%. In Norway, it's 50%. In the USA, it's 80%. Norway and Canada both have a higher standard of living, better healthcare, better education, and more opportunities for working people than the USA.

If you're going to try to compare Canada and the USA in terms of taxes, and government services, you'd better find some better sources to make your case. I'll just close with this:

Canada's middle class richest in study of big nations

New York Times study says Canadians have likely pulled ahead of Americans

www.theglobeandmail.com

Then there's this from the Pew Research Centre:

1. The middle class is large in many Western European countries, but it is losing ground in places

A large majority of adults in the selected Western European countries live in middle-income households. In 2010, the shares of adults who are middle

www.pewresearch.org

The USA has more lower income people than Europe, and more rich people than Europe, and fewer middle income people that any of them. Canada has one of the fast growing middle classes in the first world, while the American middle class is smaller than either and shrinking at both ends.

We were talking about taxation rates and my two other links that you conveniently ignored showed the middle class in the US and Canada pay roughly the same rate. So if you have nothing on that part of my post, I’m good with that. The rest of your hyperbole is nothing more than trying to distract that you were wrong on taxation rates, because it doesn’t fit your agenda.

I have no issue with you living in Canada, I prefer the states over Canada, you like Canada. I like the goods and services I get in the US, you seem to not like them, then you might want to consider you and your friends not subjecting yourselves to America, since all you do is bitch about my country.

The taxes paid by the Middle Class in Canada, include their health care. American Middle Class taxes don't include health insurance, which costs a family of four an additional $18,000 per year in the USA, on average. We also don't have co-pays or maximuim payments for health care, so more money in our pockets.

The USA has nothing comparable to OAS is a $628.25/mo payment all Canadians over the age of 65 receive, if they have lived in Canada for at least 40 years. No it's not like Social Security. That would be our Canada Pension Plan. OAS requires no contribution, or work history, and everybody over the age of 65 qualifies. Even if you're a millionaire. Canada Pension Plan is like Social Security. You only get it if you worked and you contributed. You can take it at any time between age 60 and 70, but it you take it at age 60, you get less than at 65, where it max

You seem to be especially ignorant of life in Canada. There are no goods or services available in the USA that are not available in Canada. In fact, prostitution and pot, both which are illegal in the USA, are legal in Canada. We have a LOT of stuff up here, you can't get in the USA. Abortions are covered in our health care, as is birth control. We have day care programs here for middle class families.

I'm not ignorant of anything. I don't want to live in Canada. Why is that so hard for you to understand. I didn't say or comment that you don't have what the US has I have had job offers to work in Canada and have turned them down. I like this country, I don't bother your country nor do I care how you live. I don't care about your politics, your healthcare, your cars and other than WHL, your sports Banff is pretty, the ice fields are nice. Most people are nice and it is great to visit once every few years, just not my type of country. If you don't like the US, don't come here, no worries on my part. I don't need a hooker, nor pot, nor an abortion, nor any birth control., nor day care. If you like them, then that is why it works for you.

 

[Papageorgio]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There is no plan from the Democrats . There is no plan from any quarter. We may have to sell off Yellowstone to get close to balancing the books.

The current Republicans are not fiscally responsible. The last president to balance the budget was Bill Clinton, every since then the deficit has increased and not president, not even Bush or Obama, has balanced the budget.

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

If wages rise, taxes rise, if you get a 10% pay raise, your taxes should go up 10%, if not, then taxes stay the same. That everything is getting more expensive means that people should be getting raises to offset higher prices, businesses that make more money pay more taxes, people making more money means they pay higher taxes. Pretty easy concept. If I am making $30 per hour this year and $30 per hour next year, may taxes should remain the same.

The tax code is a mess, the deductions, write offs, the tax credits, all need to go. We can simplify it by what you make, your tax rate and payment due. We don't need deductions, write offs, and all the other BS.

I can't find much to argue with there. If you listen to NPR's All things considered...you can hear a story about how a wooden arrow toy maker got a tax break on making wooden arrow toys that the makers of actual hunting arrows do not get. Its a mess. Of course you'll also hear in the same report that the program that allowed businesses to write off losses from last year on this year's taxes went from being able to be done for one year (meaning that if you had a bad year in 1935 and a great year in 1936, you could claim a deduction based on 1935's losses) was expanded to two years (meaning that 1937's taxes could also be lessened due to losses in 1935) to, in 2017, for forever (meaning that Trump's losses from decades ago still decrease his tax liability today). You may not like that.

I don't like any of it, however I don't blame Trump for taking the write offs. I blame Congress for them putting in the tax code.

 

[candycorn]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There is no plan from the Democrats . There is no plan from any quarter. We may have to sell off Yellowstone to get close to balancing the books.

The current Republicans are not fiscally responsible. The last president to balance the budget was Bill Clinton, every since then the deficit has increased and not president, not even Bush or Obama, has balanced the budget.

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

If wages rise, taxes rise, if you get a 10% pay raise, your taxes should go up 10%, if not, then taxes stay the same. That everything is getting more expensive means that people should be getting raises to offset higher prices, businesses that make more money pay more taxes, people making more money means they pay higher taxes. Pretty easy concept. If I am making $30 per hour this year and $30 per hour next year, may taxes should remain the same.

The tax code is a mess, the deductions, write offs, the tax credits, all need to go. We can simplify it by what you make, your tax rate and payment due. We don't need deductions, write offs, and all the other BS.

I can't find much to argue with there. If you listen to NPR's All things considered...you can hear a story about how a wooden arrow toy maker got a tax break on making wooden arrow toys that the makers of actual hunting arrows do not get. Its a mess. Of course you'll also hear in the same report that the program that allowed businesses to write off losses from last year on this year's taxes went from being able to be done for one year (meaning that if you had a bad year in 1935 and a great year in 1936, you could claim a deduction based on 1935's losses) was expanded to two years (meaning that 1937's taxes could also be lessened due to losses in 1935) to, in 2017, for forever (meaning that Trump's losses from decades ago still decrease his tax liability today). You may not like that.

I don't like any of it, however I don't blame Trump for taking the write offs. I blame Congress for them putting in the tax code.

Ok.

I don't suppose it would change your mind if you were to find out that Trump's signature was the one that made it legal for him to claim deductions on decade's old losses.

 

[pknopp]

Obama had every chance to veto spending just like Trump.

No, the President can only approve or veto the budget as approved by Congress. He does not have line-item veto authority.

When I say he does then you can bring that up.

 

[sartre play]

Mostly those who we pay to lead the country are ok with us ripping out each others throats. Their not missing any meals or worrying about health care or a comfortable base salary are they? Because we pay for those things for them. didn't lots of them come from money be for getting picked for higher office? How can they relate to the needs of working folk? & even with decent salaries how did they amass so many millions working for us? Have lots of questions, still cant see what the advantage is in hating my neighbor.

 

[Papageorgio]

I curious to know this because despite COVID 19 federal spending must still be curbed and fiscally responsible.

There is no plan from the Democrats . There is no plan from any quarter. We may have to sell off Yellowstone to get close to balancing the books.

The current Republicans are not fiscally responsible. The last president to balance the budget was Bill Clinton, every since then the deficit has increased and not president, not even Bush or Obama, has balanced the budget.

We want more government than we're willing to pay for. Its amazing that 1/2 the country accepts that the prices of cars rise, the prices of food rise, the prices of Big Mac's rise. But somehow they can't wrap their red state heads around the fact that the Government is as much a slave to the markets as they are when it comes to rising costs of everything from super glue to super hornets. We need a tax increase; across the board. We're all responsible so we all should have some skin in the game. Politically it's a non starter so we're never going to get it.

If wages rise, taxes rise, if you get a 10% pay raise, your taxes should go up 10%, if not, then taxes stay the same. That everything is getting more expensive means that people should be getting raises to offset higher prices, businesses that make more money pay more taxes, people making more money means they pay higher taxes. Pretty easy concept. If I am making $30 per hour this year and $30 per hour next year, may taxes should remain the same.

The tax code is a mess, the deductions, write offs, the tax credits, all need to go. We can simplify it by what you make, your tax rate and payment due. We don't need deductions, write offs, and all the other BS.

I can't find much to argue with there. If you listen to NPR's All things considered...you can hear a story about how a wooden arrow toy maker got a tax break on making wooden arrow toys that the makers of actual hunting arrows do not get. Its a mess. Of course you'll also hear in the same report that the program that allowed businesses to write off losses from last year on this year's taxes went from being able to be done for one year (meaning that if you had a bad year in 1935 and a great year in 1936, you could claim a deduction based on 1935's losses) was expanded to two years (meaning that 1937's taxes could also be lessened due to losses in 1935) to, in 2017, for forever (meaning that Trump's losses from decades ago still decrease his tax liability today). You may not like that.

I don't like any of it, however I don't blame Trump for taking the write offs. I blame Congress for them putting in the tax code.

Ok.

I don't suppose it would change your mind if you were to find out that Trump's signature was the one that made it legal for him to claim deductions on decade's old losses.

If Congress passed the law and Trump signed it, it is fine with me. I hold Congress responsible for passing it. Obama, Bush or Clinton would have signed it. How many of the Congress men had the opportunity to cash-in on it and voted yes. How many deductions and how many write offs has Congress voted for that would have helped them? How much pork spending has Congress passed that helped congressmen get a contract to a friend, family member, or helped them get re-elected?
Personally it all is wrong, but we created the mess, ignored it and made it legal. Now, we want to apply it to one individual taking advantage of it? How about getting pissed at those that have done similar in the past?

Repeal all the deductions, write offs, tax credits and you pay a tax on the gross pay. Sounds simple, save tax accountants, tax attorneys. And allow people to figure out what they owe and your employer takes out the tax owed.

 

[Markle]

Cutting social security and Medicare would hurt this nation worse than anything. People who are not rich but worked their butts off their when life would have nothing. If they get sick those that made the cuts would have to deal with the carnage.

No one, but no one has even floated such a plan. Join reality knowing full well that it cannot continue as a Ponzi Scheme forever.

 

[Markle]

Repeal all the deductions, write offs, tax credits and you pay a tax on the gross pay. Sounds simple, save tax accountants, tax attorneys. And allow people to figure out what they owe and your employer takes out the tax owed.

Why would anyone own a business, regardless of size?

 

[Markle]

Ok.

I don't suppose it would change your mind if you were to find out that Trump's signature was the one that made it legal for him to claim deductions on decade's old losses.

It must have slipped your mind to include your reliable source and working link supporting that allegation.

Just curious, why would I NOT take my losses the year they were available. I already can take so much of it each year.