We're Lowering Your Wages

[RodISHI]

I consider anyone making a transaction of exchanging goods and services to be a part of the market.

The employment market, specifically in this case, would recognize your worth eventually. That is, prospective employers. Eventually, you will make what you're worth.

Personally it is not about what I make. My thoughts in part are based on what I am hearing and seeing in the communities in which we live. The issues you are talking about concerning economics I see each and every day. These are the people I have met and worked with for over thirty five years. My neighbors near where we are at the moment are the working poor or the already physically impaired working poor that now sit around waiting for their days of misery to end.

Now on this here forum I see some elitist attitude brats shooting shit out of their finger tips claiming these people who help to make your world go round are only entitled to wish for the ability to take care of themselves. You say that they only have a right to search. Does that mean that they have no right to secure it?

 

[Paulie]

Personally it is not about what I make. My thoughts in part are based on what I am hearing and seeing in the communities in which we live. The issues you are talking about concerning economics I see each and every day. These are the people I have met and worked with for over thirty five years. My neighbors near where we are at the moment are the working poor or the already physically impaired working poor that now sit around waiting for their days of misery to end.

Now on this here forum I see some elitist attitude brats shooting shit out of their finger tips claiming these people who help to make your world go round are only entitled to wish for the ability to take care of themselves. You say that they only have a right to search. Does that mean that they have no right to secure it?

You'll find your answer in the constitution.

 

[Gem]

Care4all wrote:

i dunno....i agree with all that you said, except that as someone who has spent a lifetime in Retail/Whole sale....i view it the same with customers there, and the good or bad assistance they may get from their sales person....

good customer service brings them back to the store, poor service does not...

so i don't see much of a difference gem....

bad employees are fired and replaced with good salesmen/workers, that's what managers are suppose to do.... yes, easier said than done, but that's the goal....

seems like it should be the same at a restaurant....?

At retail establishments you are rarely at the mercy of the staff like you are at a restaurant. While it might be a pain in the ass to find a checkout clerk at Macy's on occassion...it isn't as if I'm not allowed to look at the clothes unless the clerk shows up and takes me to them...

I see your point...I just think that the restaurant business has obvious and important differences.

Also...there is the important issues of whether or not restaurants would be able to hire as many people if they were required to pay $12 for all of their wait-staff, hosts, and busboys (not to mention dishwashers, etc). Additionally, you will find many servers who do far better than $12 an hour on average...

 

[Bern80]

Now on this here forum I see some elitist attitude brats shooting shit out of their finger tips claiming these people who help to make your world go round are only entitled to wish for the ability to take care of themselves. You say that they only have a right to search. Does that mean that they have no right to secure it?

No that is NOT what we are saying. We are saying they are entitled to whatever they achieve through their own merits.

AGAIN A SIMPLE QUESTION: Why is it someone elses responsibility more so than your own to provide for yourself?

 

[Care4all]

Care4all wrote:


At retail establishments you are rarely at the mercy of the staff like you are at a restaurant. While it might be a pain in the ass to find a checkout clerk at Macy's on occassion...it isn't as if I'm not allowed to look at the clothes unless the clerk shows up and takes me to them...

I see your point...I just think that the restaurant business has obvious and important differences.

Also...there is the important issues of whether or not restaurants would be able to hire as many people if they were required to pay $12 for all of their wait-staff, hosts, and busboys (not to mention dishwashers, etc). Additionally, you will find many servers who do far better than $12 an hour on average...

shoes....i was in the shoe industry

shoe business is different than RTW(ready to wear), only one sample is usually put on display and the clerk has to service you.....get your size from the stock room and recomend the fries with the burger , suggest other product....very similar to waitresses, in fact when i was young and a shoe dept mgr, if i needed help, i'd go to local restaurants and hire the best waitress i could to fill the hole....

shoes is a ''comissioned'' dept, as a salesperson, if you hussle, to can double or tripple minimum wage....suggestive selling and customer service is key and critical, in shoes, as with waiters and waitresses.

care

 

[Againsheila]

Okay,

#1, I'm against tipping as a rule. I do tip because our society doesn't pay a decent wage in the service industry, but I object to it as a rule. Visiting Japan, even though the food was expensive, we found it was a lot cheaper because we didn't have to tip. Then again, I leave a decent tip.

#2. In the richest country in the world the poorest working man should be making a living wage and all wages should go up from there. By living wage, I mean every working person in this country should make enough money to pay for an apartment on their own, buy their food, buy their clothes, pay for their utilities, transportation and medical care. There is no excuse for working people to be living in tent cities but that's happening right here in my own city. There is something wrong in a civilized society when they don't provide a living wage for their workers.

 

[Againsheila]

If you're truely worth what you're asking for, you'll receive it eventually. The market will recognize your worth.

But you aren't entitled to it, Rod. You're only entitled to the opportunity.

So you really think those CEOs that drove the banks into bankruptcy and pocketed all those millions were paid what they were worth?

 

[Mencken]

Okay,

#2. In the richest country in the world the poorest working man should be making a living wage and all wages should go up from there. By living wage, I mean every working person in this country should make enough money to pay for an apartment on their own, buy their food, buy their clothes, pay for their utilities, transportation and medical care. There is no excuse for working people to be living in tent cities but that's happening right here in my own city. There is something wrong in a civilized society when they don't provide a living wage for their workers.

Can I comment that your ideal conception of a "living wage" is easily granted through the free market? In fact, the US free market, with the appropriate laws enforcing contracts and ensuring that proper contracts take place, have gone a long way to guarantee your concept of a liberal wage?

Curiosity - would you suggest a mandatory living wage, indexed for inflation?

(Trying to get an in on this discussion).

 

[Mencken]

So you really think those CEOs that drove the banks into bankruptcy and pocketed all those millions were paid what they were worth?

You know, the guy who you responded to was right. The market will pay you what you're worth. The market is not always perfect but the market will invariably give 95% of people what they're worth.

Even corporate CEO's are finding their pay slashed in the economic downturn. And most people would readily agree, again, that the market rewards through supply and demand for certain niches in the market and pays accordingly what they're worth.

Using corporate CEO's as some sort of rebuttal to the fact that the market does pay people what they're worth is not taking stock of the entire picture.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

#2. In the richest country in the world the poorest working man should be making a living wage and all wages should go up from there. By living wage, I mean every working person in this country should make enough money to pay for an apartment on their own, buy their food, buy their clothes, pay for their utilities, transportation and medical care. There is no excuse for working people to be living in tent cities but that's happening right here in my own city. There is something wrong in a civilized society when they don't provide a living wage for their workers.

That would be all well and good, but it is not "society's" responsibility to make sure every man and woman has a home, food, and medical care. These are your own responsibilities. Let's not forget that businessmen want their business to succeed, and if they are overpaying their employees then that is not going to happen. A person is paid what they are worth to their employer, if they feel cheated then they are free to find another job.

 

[RodISHI]

No that is NOT what we are saying. We are saying they are entitled to whatever they achieve through their own merits.

AGAIN A SIMPLE QUESTION: Why is it someone elses responsibility more so than your own to provide for yourself?

If we are talking about me personally it is a simple answer. I have already provided for myself over and over and over again. Some asshole came along and stole it by force. That same group of assholes took control of the majority of the markets and drove the cost of living so damn high I am fighting a daily battle to just survive. I was not provided equal protection under the law.

There is not one person that can acheive anything through their own merits when those who control the judiciary, the money and the markets have already rigged the game.

 

[RodISHI]

A person is paid what they are worth to their employer, if they feel cheated then they are free to find another job.

When there are no other jobs out there they are not just free to find another job. That is nothing more than an insult to everyone supposedly born free citizen in this country Kevin.

The proclaimed free markets sent the jobs overseas and then told the basic American worker to lump it. The ones who have not been send ing these jobs overseas just hired a few illegal aliens to meet their needs.

That same free market manipulated the markets using average Americans 401k's to suck dry the funds many people had. Now these same people are being told "To bad if you cannot make a living. You just must not be worth anything. If you were you would be paid a decent wage by your employer. Oh and by the way you are not paying that inflated mortgage I sold you on time either, get out! It is not my problem you were so stupid as to let me manipulate you with my paperwork."

 

[RodISHI]

You'll find your answer in the constitution.

The law is of no effect when those of the law are the lawless ones.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If we are talking about me personally it is a simple answer. I have already provided for myself over and over and over again. Some asshole came along and stole it by force. That same group of assholes took control of the majority of the markets and drove the cost of living so damn high I am fighting a daily battle to just survive. I was not provided equal protection under the law.

There is not one person that can acheive anything through their own merits when those who control the judiciary, the money and the markets have already rigged the game.

Everyone fights a daily battle to survive.

If you really think that it's so hopeless buy a bullet (.45 hollow point will do nicely) and I'll lend you my pistol.

The biggest hindrance to personal success is the government. The first nearly 4 month's income in 2008 was taken by the government (state and fed) just for taxes.

On average we all worked for free for nearly 4 months in 2008. What could you have done with that money?

Do you think you would have spent it more wisely than the government?

 

[RodISHI]

Everyone fights a daily battle to survive.

If you really think that it's so hopeless buy a bullet (.45 hollow point will do nicely) and I'll lend you my pistol.

The biggest hindrance to personal success is the government. The first nearly 4 month's income in 2008 was taken by the government (state and fed) just for taxes.

On average we all worked for free for nearly 4 months in 2008. What could you have done with that money?

Do you think you would have spent it more wisely than the government?

I would not give lovely people like you the grace of going away that easily.

I sure as hell would not have given "that money" to the banker.

 

[editec]

Interesting to read this thread.

Class wars 101.

Judging from what I read here, many of you believe that the working class is lazy and ineffective and worthless.

You have expresed nothing but contempt for any workers EXCEPT for those to whom you give lipservice....those in the military.


Right now the wealthy classes are winning the class war, and perhaps not coincidently the pulse of the national economy is weak.

FWIW, I think you guys are going to win your class war, and give yourselves all the advantages just long enough to detroy this nation.

America will become basically a colony, which is what I think you must want it to become.

China, a nation that is most definitely NOT a laisse faire capitalist society, but rather a communist feudal state is going to own this nation.

It already has us by the fiancial balls, thanks to that stupid religion some of you think is FREE TRADE.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

When there are no other jobs out there they are not just free to find another job. That is nothing more than an insult to everyone supposedly born free citizen in this country Kevin.

The proclaimed free markets sent the jobs overseas and then told the basic American worker to lump it. The ones who have not been send ing these jobs overseas just hired a few illegal aliens to meet their needs.

That same free market manipulated the markets using average Americans 401k's to suck dry the funds many people had. Now these same people are being told "To bad if you cannot make a living. You just must not be worth anything. If you were you would be paid a decent wage by your employer. Oh and by the way you are not paying that inflated mortgage I sold you on time either, get out! It is not my problem you were so stupid as to let me manipulate you with my paperwork."

Sadly, basic rules of economics don't change just because it's difficult to find a job. And your blame of the free market is displaced, as we have not had any type of free market in a very long time.

 

[RodISHI]

Sadly, basic rules of economics don't change just because it's difficult to find a job. And your blame of the free market is displaced, as we have not had any type of free market in a very long time.

We already agreed that there is no free market and in truth there will never be just a plain simple free market.

Just because basic rules of economics does not change does not mean that the people and small businesses cannot be protected from corporate raiders. When big money has bought up the politicians and the judges the common man has been left few choices but to rebel.

I woke up this morning considering a 16 million dollar contract bid on back in 1993 and all the poliical players of today and then. It is ironic what small world it is that we live in. We have two political parties playing war games with one another and the innocent get smooshed between this control thing they have going on. I have decided to write a letter this morning and just flat out ask a highly known political figure the scope of his involvement on that particular contract fiasco and see if I can get him to step back into the game. in the meantime I'll start working again on that book a few good friends wanted me to finish writing some years back. We may have to break the book into two series.

Thanks for getting the thought process going Paul and Kevin.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I would not give lovely people like you the grace of going away that easily.

I sure as hell would not have given "that money" to the banker.

So you're glad the government confiscated 4 months of your income?

Interesting to read this thread.

Class wars 101.

Judging from what I read here, many of you who believe that the working class is lazy and ineffective and worthless.

You have expresed nothing but contempt for any workers EXCEPT for those to whom you give lipservice....those in the military.

I have no contempt for the working class. I consider myself working class. I just work for myself. What I have contempt for is the sense of entitlement people have.

No one owes you anything in this world, not a job, not respect, not anything. Everyone in this country has resources at his or her fingertips that they can employ to change their lives. If people don't take advantage of those resources, it is not my fault nor is it my responsibility to provide for them.

Right now the wealthy classes are winning the class war, and perhaps not coincidently the pulse of the national economy is weak.

FWIW, I think you guys are going to win your class war, and give yourselves all the advantages just long enough to detroy this nation.

I am not at war with the rich. I do not begrudge wealthy people their success. I just want my shot at making it. I want more of my money in my pocket to spend save or invest as I see fit for the benefit of my family.

America will become basically a colony, which is what I think you must want it to become.

China, a nation that is most definitely NOT a laisse faire capitalist society, but rather a communist feudal state is going to own this nation.

It already has us by the fiancial balls, thanks to that stupid religion some of you think is FREE TRADE.

Our government mortgaged our future to china by allowing it to hold notes for our debt. If the government hadn't failed us and had not been so utterly careless with the money it takes from us, we would not be owned by china.

We should dismantle huge sections of the federal government. Slash and burn the corruption, graft and drastically reduce the power and the role of government in our everyday lives.

Sorry but if you're worried about china's threat to us then you should be in favor of slashing government spending to pay off our debts and then never allowing the government to spend more than it takes from us ever again.

 

[RodISHI]

Originally Posted by RodISHI
I would not give lovely people like you the grace of going away that easily.

I sure as hell would not have given "that money" to the banker.

So you're glad the government confiscated 4 months of your income?

I do not see that response anywhere in what I said. Your just tooting your own little sad horn.

The government cannot confiscate the nothing from the nothing that has already been stolen with the help by the government.