West should build bridges with Russia after end of Ukrainian conflict

[DudleySmith]

After totally mishandling the phenomenal opportunity the Gorbachev's wise administration offered, there is little hope that today's "diplomats" could do better. America and the rest of the world missed the boat and Russia, along with everyone else, has been paying ever since.

Actually they were left alone, and the result was of course corruption far beyond the norm.

 

[Silver Cat]

Give it up, dude. Russian propaganda has changed the tune a bit and makes up their narratives 'from the opposite'. Namely, what would have been had Putin the Saviour not started this SMO? NATO's nuclear missiles in Ukraine, biolabs, another 'massacre' in the Donbas by Ukrainian Nazis, etc.

And that doesn't matter how far from the truth that is. You can't argue with someone who uses 'what if' rhetoric.

Sure we can argue. The Russians are not dumb Orcs, attacking exclusively under the lashes of the evil Dark Lord or a flock of bats, controlled by Vlad Dracula. They are highly intelligent creatures and do their choices based on their analysis of the situation and possible consequences of the alternative choices. They attacked Ukraine because according their analysis it was more safer to attack rather than not attack.

 

[rightwinger]

Give it up, dude. Russian propaganda has changed the tune a bit and makes up their narratives 'from the opposite'. Namely, what would have been had Putin the Saviour not started this SMO? NATO's nuclear missiles in Ukraine, biolabs, another 'massacre' in the Donbas by Ukrainian Nazis, etc.

And that doesn't matter how far from the truth that is. You can't argue with someone who uses 'what if' rhetoric.

Read my signature

 

[rightwinger]

Sure we can argue. The Russians are not dumb Orcs, attacking exclusively under the lashes of the evil Dark Lord or a flock of bats, controlled by Vlad Dracula. They are highly intelligent creatures and do their choices based on their analysis of the situation and possible consequences of the alternative choices. They attacked Ukraine because according their analysis it was more safer to attack rather than not attack.

Not really

If Putin was that smart, he would have realized his generals and military was not that powerful. He would have realized the attack would lead to global retribution
If the Russian people were that smart, they would have gotten rid of Putin decades ago

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Kiev has been a part of Russia for much more longer time, since, at least, X century, with some periods of Lithuanian, Polish and German occupation.


It was pretending to be an independent nation until it decided to join NATO and start discrimination and genocide of its Russian population. After Ukrainian agression against Russia's allies - DPR and LPR, Russia got a legal right for collective self-defense. You know - "An attack against one of us, means attack against all of us".
And yes, de facto, most of the Russians don't consider The Borderlands (Ukraine in Russian and Polish languages) as an actual state or a nation.

The international law bodies and leading jurists state emphatically Russia had no right to go to war.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

No. I just soberly rate US deterrence capabilities, including ABD, civil defense, national reserves, NORAD and SBIRS effectiveness and so on... And don't tell me about professional abilities in US State services. They don't value it nowadays at all. Actually, those delusional freaks of nouvelle école don't care about reality at all and, what is even worse, they actively denie that the reality matters.

Silver Cat's understanding of US and Euro-American NATO allies is less than sophomoric. Putin will fall, and the Russians will withdraw.

 

[Silver Cat]

Not really

If Putin was that smart, he would have realized his generals and military was not that powerful. He would have realized the attack would lead to global retribution
If the Russian people were that smart, they would have gotten rid of Putin decades ago

Powerful or not, but situation for Russia right now is much better than it was back in 1942.
If the choice is between peace and war - peace is much more safe. But if the only choice you have is between attacking first and waiting for enemie's attack - attack first is much safer. And no, 85% of the world are not taking part in that "retribution". Hell, even some NATO members support him.
Ukraine is "Russia without Putin". It's the best confirmation that it is much better with Putin than without him.

 

[Silver Cat]

Silver Cat's understanding of US and Euro-American NATO allies is less than sophomoric. Putin will fall, and the Russians will withdraw.

We'll see. But right now I don't see any reason why they should do it. Taking the nature of the EU regime it's much safer for them to fight and win than be defeated and genocided.

 

[Silver Cat]

The international law bodies and leading jurists state emphatically Russia had no right to go to war.

It's hilarious to speak about "international law bodies and leading jurists" after Clinton's unprovoked agression against Serbia back in 1999. No more international laws but "might is right".
Anyway, the law of human nature is collective self-defense. "Attack against one of us means attack against all of us. And we'll all attack you back".

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

We'll see. But right now I don't see any reason why they should do it. Taking the nature of the EU regime it's much safer for them to fight and win than be defeated and genocided.

The Russians can't win is the point. No one is genociding Russians. To suggest such is a lie.

 

[Mac-7]

oh, we only played to the sentiments of their soldiers, allowing them in our homes for a coffee on occasion.
but we also had a resistance movement that was actively burning down warehouses with documents about the Jews, and which did assassinations of German troops and officers.

after the war, all those who had supported the Germans (by for instance fighting for the Germans, or women who slept with German troops), were shunned and disgraced by the rest of our society.
and that echoes to today, where we openly shun a new nationalist political party (pvv.nl) that is very anti-immigrant.

me? i would've been in the resistance. for sure

Talk is cheap

Based on your attitude toward the russian invasion of ukraine I suspect you would have turned in Ann Frank as a jesture of goodwill to the germans

 

[Mac-7]

It's not about territory at all. It is about demilitarisation of the Eastern and Northern Europe. And it means that the Russians won't agree just to take half of Ukraine.

I suspect putin would gladly accept half of ukraine

He has a tiger by the tail and its costing him dearly

 

[AZrailwhale]

Kiev has been a part of Russia for much more longer time, since, at least, X century, with some periods of Lithuanian, Polish and German occupation.


It was pretending to be an independent nation until it decided to join NATO and start discrimination and genocide of its Russian population. After Ukrainian agression against Russia's allies - DPR and LPR, Russia got a legal right for collective self-defense. You know - "An attack against one of us, means attack against all of us".
And yes, de facto, most of the Russians don't consider The Borderlands (Ukraine in Russian and Polish languages) as an actual state or a nation.

That makes as much (or little) sense as saying that Mexico has the right to invade the USA if it treats AMERICAN CITIZENS of Mexican descent in California, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico badly because they were once p[art of Mexico. The DPR and LPR are part of Ukraine like the border states are part of the USA.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Dutch resistance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cowardice Is the Crime That Enables All Others

The Little Dutch Boys were inexcusable doormats in the two World Wars, which might not have happened if they had become a garrison state. That was necessitated because of their geographical position. Pushovers deserve no sympathy.

Instead, they became gutless parasites relying on England to save them. Their unwarlike character, being merchants rather than Marines, made them a temptation for German aggression. Likewise, Belgium met the Nazi threat with an Air Force consisting of only three planes.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

stop the generalizing insulting,

No Rebuttal Allowed to the Generalizing of Pacifist Bleeding Hearts?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Actually they were left alone, and the result was of course corruption far beyond the norm.

The "Invisible Hand" Is the One Picking Your Pocket

The World Bank representatives of silly laissez-faire Capitalism advised Yeltsin that it didn't matter who took over the Russian corporations; the magical Free Market would automatically eliminate the crooks.

 

[DudleySmith]

The "Invisible Hand" Is the One Picking Your Pocket

The World Bank representatives of silly laissez-faire Capitalism advised Yeltsin that it didn't matter who took over the Russian corporations; the magical Free Market would automatically eliminate the crooks.

Nah. The KGB and the Central Committees just formed a cadre and took over in the power vacuum when Yeltsin folded; he was a drunk, not a particularly good one for a Russian. It was fun when he commandeered a tank and shot a hole into their White House, but that was about it for his entertainment value. Like all corporations that go bankrupt, the insiders just paid themselves big bonuses and opened up for business a week later under another name, and left the wreckage for others to clean up.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Sure we can argue. The Russians are not dumb Orcs, attacking exclusively under the lashes of the evil Dark Lord or a flock of bats, controlled by Vlad Dracula.

Shows Show Only the Shallow

You're trying to debate people who are under the spell of Hollywood magic-shows. The screen screens out reality for them. Keep It Simple, Stupid is the ruling class's direction to the directors.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

I don't think The Sage of Main Street is playing with a full deck, mentally or emotionally, so I am putting him on Ignore. Discussing this matter is too important to run around in la la land with him or her. Suggest others consider that option.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

It's hilarious to speak about "international law bodies and leading jurists" after Clinton's unprovoked agression against Serbia back in 1999. No more international laws but "might is right".
Anyway, the law of human nature is collective self-defense. "Attack against one of us means attack against all of us. And we'll all attack you back".

The illogical equivalency has nothing to do with the present situation. You are in the same mindset of The Sage of Main Street, and that is not a good place for discussion.