What about TORTURE at the hands of Americans?

[Psychoblues]

So sorry to disappoint anyone here. My objective is only American as I know America to be and for the reason I went to war numerous times to protect. I was young then.

I didn't attack anyone here. That's not my style. I even bite my tongue a bit when I read some of your senseless bullshit screeds. But you suffer from your own sins. You and your GOD can worry about that. And I'll suffer with mine.

I never tolerated torture. And I saw it beginning. I stopped it. That's American. I never was a POW but I would have expected the same and I know a few ex-POW's that agree with me completely on that issue. Several of them are Republicans and several more I have no idea as to their political persuasion except I know them to be solid Americans. So stop your wet-dreaming, Sir Evil.

Me? I'm a Veteran, a Democrat, but I'm an American first. All the rest has to fall into context behind the freedoms and responsibilities that I was born as an American to uphold. I doubt without true service to this country that one might understand that. That's OK. I would encourage you to read, research, and find out about the people that have died for you, your freedoms and do what you can to protect the freedoms, including opinions, of others. Your uncalled for attacts are unnecessary and reflect you don't know much about American purpose or history.

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin'

 

[Psychoblues]

Dear Sir Evil,

Our TROOPS are on foreign soil. Just as I was when I was fighting for nitwits like you. They are confronting an enemy that has no understanding of the reasons for the American presense there just like I didn't completely understand when I was there. But I did my job. I protected as very best I could the interests of my Commander, my President and my Country. I did not then and I do not now advocate in any way the atrocities of torture in any way.

In retrospect, I doubt the motivations of some of my commanders and even some of my Presidents. But I do not doubt the pretenses of the America I have fought for and grown to love throughout my lifetime.

These internet conversations are just that. Casual conversations among peoples that seek additional information. Believe me when I say that you are providing additional information, shallow and uninformed as it might be.

Your thing might be digging and scraping people that disagree with you. I didn't come here to disagree. I originally came here for the conversation that the title of this particular board would suggest. United States (ie. American) viewpoint and the furtherance of our ideals. With responses like yours and a few others here I would suggest that America has nothing to do with your conversations. You somehow feel that you are entitled to bash and somehow diminish any viewpoint different from your own. I would suggest changing your nameplate on the front page.

In other words, I don't think you to be representive of anyone other than yourself, much less the U.S. as is depicted on the front page. Maybe that's a management problem. On the other hand, I don't represent anyone other than myself on this board either.

But ain't it GREAT!!!!!! WE can differ and still communicate!!!!!!!!

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin', Republicans, however, control the roads.

 

[Psychoblues]

Gabby, unwarranted and flamming, once again.

Sir Evil just said he would like torturing "gabby". You obviously consider that acceptable and further remark as "gabby" is somehow "flaming". I hope the reading populace reads and understands the implications of your statements.

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin' even though the repuplicans own the roads

 

[Annie]

OK, Flaming ceasefire has now been declared.
Resume normally demented tone of conversation. :

Oh good, we are used to demented! especially after I read through much of this thread, for a 2nd time! :shocked:

 

[Said1]

Sir Evil just said he would like torturing "gabby". You obviously consider that acceptable and further remark as "gabby" is somehow "flaming". I hope the reading populace reads and understands the implications of your statements.

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin' even though the repuplicans own the roads

Lame, even for you.

 

[Zhukov]

Tell me what you think about torture being commited by Americans in the name of ANYTHING American?

Actual physical torture (as in beating, cutting, stretching, twisting, amputation, et cetera), as a means to acquire useful information, isn't considered a useful tactic. Therefore because of this, and because it is illegal, I don't believe we (our soldiers or intelligence agents) engage in it.

Psychological torture, such as humiliation, sleep deprivation, or threat of physical torture or death (the last of which we don't do either, because that is also illegal), I have absolutely no problem with whatsoever if the ultimate aim is to save innocent American lives.

Were the founders of our country here, in our time, I assume they would suggest absolutely barbaric (by our contemporary standards) treatment of the detainees at Gitmo. Thumb screws, racks, stockades, public floggins, and hangings, to name a few practices. How's that for your "American Way"?

The American Way is freedom and liberty for Americans, and conflict with and death to all those who would try to take it away.

The terrorists at Gitmo get rice pilaf.....I don't even know what the fuck rice pilaf is.

 

[colehart]

Dang, what a firestorm here. I didn't mean to create that.

Once again, I am a VETERAN OF FOREIGN WARS. I have seen torture. I did not and I do not condone TORTURE under any circumstances. Americans are bigger than that. In all my wars, travels and involvement in foreign lands I've kept the American Constitution in mind. And the Geneva Convention agreements as well. Why? Because they are as correct as any documents I've ever been fortunate enough to have read and understood. Do you understand?

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin'

Dang, what a firestorm here. I didn't mean to create that.

Once again, I am a VETERAN OF FOREIGN WARS. I have seen torture. I did not and I do not condone TORTURE under any circumstances. Americans are bigger than that. In all my wars, travels and involvement in foreign lands I've kept the American Constitution in mind. And the Geneva Convention agreements as well. Why? Because they are as correct as any documents I've ever been fortunate enough to have read and understood. Do you understand?

No we're not! You torture Americans, you get ten times worse! This thing about...if we do what they do it puts us on their level thing is a crock! Sometimes you have to get on their level to make them understand they will lose if they (I'm gonna be nice) "mess" with us. How many other (enemies of U.S.) countries abide by the Geneva Convention? la, la, lala, la,la,la, still waiting........none? didn't think so. Screw the Geneva Convention! Let's get down and dirty!

 

[gaffer]

First of all, psyco. What do you consider torture?

Beating, cutting, burning would all be considered torture. Threatening to do so is just a threat. Depriving of sleep or even food for a time is not torture. Making them worry that something terrible is going to happen to them is not torture. So what do you call torture?

You claim to be a vet and have seen torture. When and where? You also claim to have been in every war and major engagement since Vietnam. What exactly did you do? What units were you with? You would have to have been in multiple units as no individual unit was involved in all of them.

What years were you in Vietnam? And what unit/s? And don't give me the "that's classified" bullshit. You have touted your veteran status before. Now you claim to have been a lifer and yet your a flaming liberal. That would make you one very rare cookie. But sin loy toy duc.

 

[CSM]

First of all, psyco. What do you consider torture?

Beating, cutting, burning would all be considered torture. Threatening to do so is just a threat. Depriving of sleep or even food for a time is not torture. Making them worry that something terrible is going to happen to them is not torture. So what do you call torture?

You claim to be a vet and have seen torture. When and where? You also claim to have been in every war and major engagement since Vietnam. What exactly did you do? What units were you with? You would have to have been in multiple units as no individual unit was involved in all of them.

What years were you in Vietnam? And what unit/s? And don't give me the "that's classified" bullshit. You have touted your veteran status before. Now you claim to have been a lifer and yet your a flaming liberal. That would make you one very rare cookie. But sin loy toy duc.

Of the conflicts he lists, any one would qualify him for membership in the VFW, yet he lists only his specific time in Korea as a qualifying factor. That makes me suspicious in itself.

I served in Southeast Asia and have been in some rather interesting situations there with a lot of other folks. I was a very young man at the time. I knew why I was there and what I was doing. I believe to this day that it was the right thing to do. I never saw what could be defined as torture over there; I was not involved in the interrogation of prisoners so I am not saying it didn't happen but the men I was with were not torturers nor were they murders. I dont care what the pot-smokin, flower totin hippies say!

 

[Nienna]

I don't understand. What was the specific question?

 

[dilloduck]

I don't understand. What was the specific question?

I think it was one of those trick ones to get everyone to buy into the fact that the US is torturing prisoners

 

[OCA]

Why don't you just come out and admit you enjoy the prospect of someone you dislike being tortured? That you wish you were someplace right now where you could personally torture some of those raghead murdering terrorists.
No one here would think lesser of you for it. :whip3:

I'll admit it, I love the fact that we humiliate(there has been no torture to date) ragheads.

The simple fact is Gabriella and the old drunken liar Psycho love the fact that Americans are hamstrung by silly laws and they secretley wish for American loss.

Psych I believe is a liar, you'd have to have been on the board for a long time to know what i'm talking about.

Psycho drink another case of Busch and take some more hallucinogens you old hippie bum.

 

[Avatar4321]

What torture?

Can anyone name one person who has been tortured by Americans? (Besides the French who are tortured just by us showing them up)

Can anyone identify any American who has done torture?

Can you even identify what torture supposedly occurred?

Seriously, what torture have we done?

 

[manu1959]

Tell me what you think about torture being commited by Americans in the name of ANYTHING American?

not sure flirting is torture

Is torture by the other side justification?

nope but I don't need a reason. plus i wouldn't tortue them i would just shoot them

Before you answer that, give me your opinion on this phrase, "Circular Firing squad."

i am all for it..... one solider in the middle with a machine gun surrounded by terrorists...sounds pretty efficient

I was raised up in very modest, even meager means. I was raised up believing in the "American Way" as depicted from my parents, in my schools and presently I base my opinions in those and from my own experience. I don't believe for a moment that true Americans can tolerate torture of anyone. Period. Anyway, what do you think?

i think you are wrong

 

[Gunny]

Let me preface this by telling you that I am a veteran. A life member of the VFW (I qualify 5 different ways) and the DAV. I support our troops and I support our veterans in practically everything I do. Note that I didn't say "they do", either as troops or veterans. After all, I'm an American first, a veteran as a result of being American.

Tell me what you think about torture being commited by Americans in the name of ANYTHING American?

Is torture by the other side justification? Before you answer that, give me your opinion on this phrase, "Circular Firing Squad."

I was raised up in very modest, even meager means. I was raised up believing in the "American Way" as depicted from my parents, in my schools and presently I base my opinions in those and from my own experience. I don't believe for a moment that true Americans can tolerate torture of anyone. Period.

Anyway, what do you think?


Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin'

I read all your posts, but decided to go back to this one. First, I DO have to join in the crowd questionign your credentials when the career you described spans some 40 years active service. I'm sure you can explain this without compromising your anonymity.

Second, I have to wonder how you can be so idealistic if you have in fact seen the amount of combat you are claiming. American values and ideals are great, and what we should strive for.

Reality is, if I have a captured enemy combatant and I think it will save even one of my Marines, he's talking or dying. Idealism is great sitting in a big comfy chair with the master remote somewhere in Iowa.

The enemy does not observe our ideals. The enemy uses those ideals against us. They are not bound by them, and their violation of them sends the American public into shock. I'm quite sure they get a big kick out of it.

I am not a proponent of torture; however, I am not a proponent of tying troops' hands behind their backs with a set of overly-moralistic rules that puts them at a disadvantage to the enemy.

We aren't going to win that way.

 

[Psychoblues]

I'll admit it, I love the fact that we humiliate(there has been no torture to date) ragheads.

The simple fact is Gabriella and the old drunken liar Psycho love the fact that Americans are hamstrung by silly laws and they secretley wish for American loss.

Psych I believe is a liar, you'd have to have been on the board for a long time to know what i'm talking about.

Psycho drink another case of Busch and take some more hallucinogens you old hippie bum.

I think you are addressing Gabriella84 here but your comments are mostly directed towards me, OCA.

It takes a fairly sick and ignorant individual to "love the fact that we (I hope you are not including me in that "we" remark) humiliate ragheads." No American worth his salt would ever make such a remark, or would he? Personally, I have no problems whatsoever with Muslims or Hindus or Buddists or Sihks or even Christians. I am a Christian and I respect Christianity. By your remarks I presume (I don't judge, I leave that to your maker) you are not.

I'm not here to defend Muslim fundamentalism either. And I sure don't defend the atrocities committed by Christians either. Maybe you're just a bit vague on history, OCA, I'm trying to be as polite as I can.

There is no "simple fact" as you describe and there is no simple solution to our quandry. I don't believe there are any "silly laws." There are certainly laws that we don't understand and even others that we might disagree about. None of them were created frivously and none of them were created singlehandedly by me or anyone like me.

What good might serve me, as the solid American that I believe I am, by a "loss" of American ideals? My entire life has been devoted to the furtherance of American ideals, OCA. As a soldier I fought wars for the ideals that I continue to believe are uniguely American and universally correct. As an elected politician I fought equally as hard for the same reasons.

You may consider me a drunk because I admitted at one time that I enjoyed Busch beer but I added that I didn't have much use for a cokehead named George W. Bush. It was a joke. You didn't get it. I consider you fairly stupid because you demonstrate it practically every time you attack another post for nothing other than your simple disagreement. Are we even yet?

As far as hallucinogens are concerned, OCA, I don't use them. I don't smoke the dope, I don't pop the pills, I don't sniff the crack, I don't so any of those things and I never have and I never will. I do enjoy a brew and a good conversation every now and then. But I prefer to converse with open-minded people.

You call me a bum. Why? I've been very open in this forum and spoken openly about havig supported my family, put 3 kids through college, 2 through post graduate schools, I've never been bankrupt, I've never drawn a single cent of unemployment money, I've never been on anykind of welfare and neither have any of my children and I've never asked an American taxpayer for anything other than a consideration and/or a a vote. I still believe that most of my tax dollars (and God knows I've paid a lot of them) have been used in justifiable and honorable ways. Sorry dude, but the vast majority of the waste from my side of this argument goes to the jerks that run Halliburton, Peak oil, Harken Oil and a couple thousand other major Republican contributing leaches.

If I could invest (contribute) a million and get back a billion maybe I might consider it. Nay, I value my sleep at night and there ain't no return for the loss of that.

You also call me a liar. You got some nerve. What I've told you here is the truth as well as I know it to be. I can prove everything about my history that I've written here. All you can do is sit on your ass and call me a "liar".

Pitiful

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin'

 

[Psychoblues]

I read all your posts, but decided to go back to this one. First, I DO have to join in the crowd questionign your credentials when the career you described spans some 40 years active service. I'm sure you can explain this without compromising your anonymity.

Second, I have to wonder how you can be so idealistic if you have in fact seen the amount of combat you are claiming. American values and ideals are great, and what we should strive for.

Reality is, if I have a captured enemy combatant and I think it will save even one of my Marines, he's talking or dying. Idealism is great sitting in a big comfy chair with the master remote somewhere in Iowa.

The enemy does not observe our ideals. The enemy uses those ideals against us. They are not bound by them, and their violation of them sends the American public into shock. I'm quite sure they get a big kick out of it.

I am not a proponent of torture; however, I am not a proponent of tying troops' hands behind their backs with a set of overly-moralistic rules that puts them at a disadvantage to the enemy.

We aren't going to win that way.

GunnyL, certainly I'll do my best to answer your questions. You've certainly been polite and in my opinion genuinely interested. I've never tried to avoid questions that I believe are sincere.

First off, I'm well past retirement age. 40 years only begins to explain my experience. In this venue, you are correct in assuming that anonimity is precious to me. It's also precious to you and most other posters here. Political debate is much more fun when anonimity is preserved. Secret ballots is the very best way to elect. Secret counting is where the trouble begins. I digress.

Although I've never said anything about the combat that I've seen, I don't do that, I will repeat to you that I am a veteran of at least 4 wars and 5 if you want to count the time I spent in Korea under the present armistise agreement. BTW, even present day Korean Duty qualifies one for VFW membership. The war there has never been undeclared. But that's another topic for another day. I have seen combat, however, but let's not belabour that at this time. There are no words that I could write to you at this time that could possibly properly convey my thoughts about "combat."

Your remark about "if I have a captured enemy combatant and I think it will save even one of my Marines, he's talking or dying." is not indicative that you have combat experience or that you are intelligence savvy or that you are mature or that you might possess leadership skills or that you have any idea of what American ideals or values are all about. In any event, I'll go on. But please, give me your ideas about what you think American ideals and values are. I don't think murder, torture or purposeful humiliation, among other inhuman atrocities, are among them. But I'll respect your interpretation.

Believe me, I'm not sitting in a big comfy armchair, I do have a few remotes (I don't have any handy right now) and I don't reside in Iowa. Nonetheless, I consider myself as American as anyone and have and will vigorously defend my position as an American.

Hitler certainly didn't observe our ideals. Stalin, our ally at the time, certainly didn't observe our ideals. So what's your point? We, Americans, have principles. To hell with the unprincipled. We must not allow ourselves as the land of the free to lower ourselves to their standards. But, maybe you think we should? I'd like to hear your opinion on that? As far as "their" troops getting a big "kick" out of anything other than defending "Allah", I think your purview rather immature and short-sighted and without benefit of history education. I'm not trying to pick on you, GunnyL. But you have to get yourself an education.

Our troops have every advantage that the United States as the lone surviving super-power can offer. Do we have to revert to torture? Do we have to commit murder? Do we have to intimidate by military force a system that indigenous peoples reject religiously? NO. We don't have to do that if we by any small means believe in the principles that this veteran thought he was fighting for. The arrogance like is demonstrated by this administration is what this veteran fought against. And I'll renew my spirits and fight against that same arrogance now, whether or not the perpetrator calls himself an American. My country is bigger than that.

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin'

 

[CSM]

It is certainly possible to have military career spanning forty years. It is unlikely but certainly possible for a soldier to have been in combat in five major conflicts during that period. My own career spanned 36 years but I certainly did not see combat in each and every conflict to which the Army was deployed.

I have questions about Psycho's military experience but not because of the length. The fact that the word "combat" is in parentesis makes me wonder what he means by that; was Psycho a grunt or did his "combat" experience consist of dropping bombs from above 10,000 feet? Was Psycho a company clerk or a 4 star general (neither of whom see much combat but are engaged in conflict even if indirectly).His professed beliefs on this board in various threads makes me wonder how anyone with a 40 year career/relationship with the US military and member of the VFW could possibly have developed the thought process he displays.

As for questioning Gunny L's maturity and leadership, I suspect that is a bit out of line. I have no doubt that Psycho's combat experiences are very different than the Gunny's and probably can't be compared except at the basic level. Different times in different wars.....

On a fine point, I dont think humiliation falls under the category of "inhuman atrocities".

Questioning the motives of the terrorists is pointless. Documented evidence and their own public statements point to motivations ranging from monetary gain to religious fanaticism. If we believe the published propaganda, there are many many atrocities being committed in the name of Allah in order to defeat the infidel (that would be us). The fly in their ointment is that the fanatics are also killing non-infidels....rationalizations by terrorists notwithstanding, it is difficult to justify such acts against fellow Muslims.

Should the US engage in acts of torture? Without getting into the much debated definition of torture, the answer is obviously not. What the crux of the matter appears to be (for me anyway) is where does one draw the line? Hot pincers on human flesh seems extreme and counterproductive yet some would equate interogation with the Nazi death camps which also seems extreme. When I hear stories about detainees suffering because they have no air conditioning I shake my head in disbelief. There are people in this country who do not have air conditioning in thier homes. Does this mean the United States is perpetrating human rights violations because we (as a society) have not provided air conditioning for the poor? Ther are some who would argue that is the case.

 

[Gunny]

GunnyL, certainly I'll do my best to answer your questions. You've certainly been polite and in my opinion genuinely interested. I've never tried to avoid questions that I believe are sincere.

First off, I'm well past retirement age. 40 years only begins to explain my experience. In this venue, you are correct in assuming that anonimity is precious to me. It's also precious to you and most other posters here. Political debate is much more fun when anonimity is preserved. Secret ballots is the very best way to elect. Secret counting is where the trouble begins. I digress.

Although I've never said anything about the combat that I've seen, I don't do that, I will repeat to you that I am a veteran of at least 4 wars and 5 if you want to count the time I spent in Korea under the present armistise agreement. BTW, even present day Korean Duty qualifies one for VFW membership. The war there has never been undeclared. But that's another topic for another day. I have seen combat, however, but let's not belabour that at this time. There are no words that I could write to you at this time that could possibly properly convey my thoughts about "combat."

Your remark about "if I have a captured enemy combatant and I think it will save even one of my Marines, he's talking or dying." is not indicative that you have combat experience or that you are intelligence savvy or that you are mature or that you might possess leadership skills or that you have any idea of what American ideals or values are all about. In any event, I'll go on. But please, give me your ideas about what you think American ideals and values are. I don't think murder, torture or purposeful humiliation, among other inhuman atrocities, are among them. But I'll respect your interpretation.

Believe me, I'm not sitting in a big comfy armchair, I do have a few remotes (I don't have any handy right now) and I don't reside in Iowa. Nonetheless, I consider myself as American as anyone and have and will vigorously defend my position as an American.

Hitler certainly didn't observe our ideals. Stalin, our ally at the time, certainly didn't observe our ideals. So what's your point? We, Americans, have principles. To hell with the unprincipled. We must not allow ourselves as the land of the free to lower ourselves to their standards. But, maybe you think we should? I'd like to hear your opinion on that? As far as "their" troops getting a big "kick" out of anything other than defending "Allah", I think your purview rather immature and short-sighted and without benefit of history education. I'm not trying to pick on you, GunnyL. But you have to get yourself an education.

Our troops have every advantage that the United States as the lone surviving super-power can offer. Do we have to revert to torture? Do we have to commit murder? Do we have to intimidate by military force a system that indigenous peoples reject religiously? NO. We don't have to do that if we by any small means believe in the principles that this veteran thought he was fighting for. The arrogance like is demonstrated by this administration is what this veteran fought against. And I'll renew my spirits and fight against that same arrogance now, whether or not the perpetrator calls himself an American. My country is bigger than that.

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin'

Let's see, you aren't picking on me; yet, you question just about everything about me from my education to my combat experience. Your eloquence doesn't hide your condescending attitude, and you can trust me, it IS unwarranted.

You also went through a long, drawn-out story of NOT saying just how you managed 40 years of service.

The bad news for your snap assessment is that I HAVE been in combat, and my seniors did not question my intelligence, judgement, leaderships skills, morals, my technical proficiency, nor generally anything but my serious lack of tact.

While I could never have enough education, I have enough to get me by in this life if I choose to not pursue it. You however, are seriously lacking in a good dose of REALITY.

Your holier-than-thou idealism just gets people killed. Simple as that. You hamstring OUR troops with your lofty rules. If the enemy isn't expoliting them, they're sneering at them.

Superpower? You sling that word like it's supposed to mean something. We're only super when we start dropping nukes. Otherwise, it's still our army against a bunch of murdering scumbag terrorists who should be hunted down like the dogs they are and hurried on their way to Allah.

Since you claim to be a Vietnam vet, I would think that you would have learned fighting an unconventional war with conventional forces isn't the ideal way to get the trophy, now is it?