CDZ What do American Muslims want?

[Slyhunter]

If any Muslim is working to replace our civilization with an Islamic one, they ARE part of a fifth column.

Since one of the most basic values of western liberalism involves the free exchange of ideas, that would extend to any who believe criticism of Islam should be forbidden.

All those display such an excessive deference to Islam to the point that they are working towards this same objective are most definitely part of the fifth column as well.

Disagree.

American Muslims practice the most basic values of Western liberalism, including the free exchange of ideas – again, American Muslims are no different than any other American.

Should an individual American Muslim advocate for laws and policies that conflict with the Constitution and its case law, then that individual alone should be subject to admonishment, not all Muslims or Islam as a religion, where he in fact is not ‘representative’ of all Muslims or Islam.

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted, as individuals alone are responsible for their actions, not religions.

Indeed, when a Christian commits an act of terror, such as in the case of Scott Roeder, we correctly assign the blame to the terrorist alone, not ‘all Christians,’ and not Christianity as a religion; Muslims and Islam merit that same consideration.

And no one believes that criticism of Islam should be ‘forbidden,’ as hate speech is entitled to Constitutional protections, where bigots are at liberty to express their ignorance and hate with impunity.

Last, respecting the right of Muslims to practice their faith absent unwarranted interference and restrictions from government is not to show “excessive deference” to Islam, as all faiths are equally entitled to Establishment Clause protections, and all faiths will receive equal protection under the law.

Criticism of Islam as a religion is warranted - I don't have a problem there. But it's when it's held to different standards than other religions that I have a problem. A discussion in another thread on anti-semitism, made me realize a few things. When you hold the Jewish people to different standards than you hold those of other religions/cultures/nations - when you have to alter standards (move goal posts) in order to somehow make them unique in some evil - then that is anti-semitism. I think the same applies here - to anti-Islamism. You can argue that a religion has barbaric tenants, but if you use those to define that religion, and ignore similar tenants in others - then that is wrong. If you condemn an entire faith on it's extremists and then compare it to the most benign of others, then that seems wrong also.

And...like you point out, assigning blame to the individual vs all of the faith, or - even in other cases where the invidual is clearly mentally ill, if it's a Muslim, the religion is blamed - if he is anything else, it's a nutter.

You compare Today's actions with today's religion. You don't reach into the ancient past and point and say, see they did it too. What matters is what are they still doing. Muslims are still using violence against non-muslims for being non-muslims.

The old testament is still being used to justify anti-gay legislation in the U.S.

Boom.

I'm not a Christian.
I argue for anti-gay legislation in the U.S.
Boom as you say.
Specifically I argue against the Gay agenda. You don't have to be a follower of a fictional book to be anti-gay.

 

[Coyote]

Criticism of Islam as a religion is warranted - I don't have a problem there. But it's when it's held to different standards than other religions that I have a problem. A discussion in another thread on anti-semitism, made me realize a few things. When you hold the Jewish people to different standards than you hold those of other religions/cultures/nations - when you have to alter standards (move goal posts) in order to somehow make them unique in some evil - then that is anti-semitism. I think the same applies here - to anti-Islamism. You can argue that a religion has barbaric tenants, but if you use those to define that religion, and ignore similar tenants in others - then that is wrong. If you condemn an entire faith on it's extremists and then compare it to the most benign of others, then that seems wrong also.

And...like you point out, assigning blame to the individual vs all of the faith, or - even in other cases where the invidual is clearly mentally ill, if it's a Muslim, the religion is blamed - if he is anything else, it's a nutter.

You compare Today's actions with today's religion. You don't reach into the ancient past and point and say, see they did it too. What matters is what are they still doing. Muslims are still using violence against non-muslims for being non-muslims.

There are two different aspect I see, in how Islam/Muslims are attacked.

One is what is in their texts - yet, what is in their text is little different than what is in the OT and NT. There are extortions to peace and tolerance, rules for warfare, rules for how to treat people, extortions to violence. If some one is using that to attack Islam, then it's appropriate to point out the same in other religious texts. The material is there - it's how the followers choose to interpret or what they take that matters.

The other thing is - Today's Religion. What is totally ignored is the majority of Muslims who don't use violence against non-Muslims and instead the focus is on those who do and culture seems to have a good bit of influence there as well. Should there be condemnation for persecution, intolerance of religious minorities etc in Muslim majority countries where that is a problem? Absolutely yes. Those who do that should be condemned and focus should be on protecting minorities and changing those views - but that is not to say it represents all the religion.

Again - look at American Muslims - there is no indication of any of that, or at least not any difference from the non-Muslim community, so why is Islam as a whole attacked rather than the bad players (which would be the case in any other religion)?

Show me a Muslim country that is civilized and not following their barbaric ancient ways. There are what 57 Muslims countries plus Spain, France, Africa, etc. Wherever you find Muslims you have strife.

No, that isn't true - many countries have Muslim populations with no more strife then that caused by other groups. The U.S. for example.

Dearborn Michigan.
Chicago.
Strife is there you just have to open your eyes.
Muslims in Chicago Chant “Death to America”. Where Was the Mainstream Media on This?

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

 

[Slyhunter]

Not surprisingly, what we have so far is a variety of non-Muslim opinions of what Muslims in America want.

And not surprisingly, those errant, wrongheaded opinions are coming from those on right the with an unwarranted hostility toward Islam.

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

Most Muslims certainly do not, and when you characterize those who object to a belief system that SHOULD be voluntary by calling them the sort of names used for people who hate those for things that AREN'T voluntary, your name calling only indicates that you do not believe I should have the ability to criticize somebody for a choice they made because they didn't actually have that choice.

We're talking about Muslims in America. Do you have any evidence to indicate that American Muslims do not support freedom of belief?

piss on a Quran and see what they think of your freedom.
Put a Shit covered Quran in a NY museum and see if it gets the same response as the shit covered cross did.

 

[Slyhunter]

You compare Today's actions with today's religion. You don't reach into the ancient past and point and say, see they did it too. What matters is what are they still doing. Muslims are still using violence against non-muslims for being non-muslims.

There are two different aspect I see, in how Islam/Muslims are attacked.

One is what is in their texts - yet, what is in their text is little different than what is in the OT and NT. There are extortions to peace and tolerance, rules for warfare, rules for how to treat people, extortions to violence. If some one is using that to attack Islam, then it's appropriate to point out the same in other religious texts. The material is there - it's how the followers choose to interpret or what they take that matters.

The other thing is - Today's Religion. What is totally ignored is the majority of Muslims who don't use violence against non-Muslims and instead the focus is on those who do and culture seems to have a good bit of influence there as well. Should there be condemnation for persecution, intolerance of religious minorities etc in Muslim majority countries where that is a problem? Absolutely yes. Those who do that should be condemned and focus should be on protecting minorities and changing those views - but that is not to say it represents all the religion.

Again - look at American Muslims - there is no indication of any of that, or at least not any difference from the non-Muslim community, so why is Islam as a whole attacked rather than the bad players (which would be the case in any other religion)?

Show me a Muslim country that is civilized and not following their barbaric ancient ways. There are what 57 Muslims countries plus Spain, France, Africa, etc. Wherever you find Muslims you have strife.

No, that isn't true - many countries have Muslim populations with no more strife then that caused by other groups. The U.S. for example.

Dearborn Michigan.
Chicago.
Strife is there you just have to open your eyes.
Muslims in Chicago Chant “Death to America”. Where Was the Mainstream Media on This?

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

How has it been debunked when we have video of them saying it.
You lost all credibility with that statement.
And Dearborn is trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims.

 

[Carla_Danger]

You compare Today's actions with today's religion. You don't reach into the ancient past and point and say, see they did it too. What matters is what are they still doing. Muslims are still using violence against non-muslims for being non-muslims.

There are two different aspect I see, in how Islam/Muslims are attacked.

One is what is in their texts - yet, what is in their text is little different than what is in the OT and NT. There are extortions to peace and tolerance, rules for warfare, rules for how to treat people, extortions to violence. If some one is using that to attack Islam, then it's appropriate to point out the same in other religious texts. The material is there - it's how the followers choose to interpret or what they take that matters.

The other thing is - Today's Religion. What is totally ignored is the majority of Muslims who don't use violence against non-Muslims and instead the focus is on those who do and culture seems to have a good bit of influence there as well. Should there be condemnation for persecution, intolerance of religious minorities etc in Muslim majority countries where that is a problem? Absolutely yes. Those who do that should be condemned and focus should be on protecting minorities and changing those views - but that is not to say it represents all the religion.

Again - look at American Muslims - there is no indication of any of that, or at least not any difference from the non-Muslim community, so why is Islam as a whole attacked rather than the bad players (which would be the case in any other religion)?

Show me a Muslim country that is civilized and not following their barbaric ancient ways. There are what 57 Muslims countries plus Spain, France, Africa, etc. Wherever you find Muslims you have strife.

No, that isn't true - many countries have Muslim populations with no more strife then that caused by other groups. The U.S. for example.

Dearborn Michigan.
Chicago.
Strife is there you just have to open your eyes.
Muslims in Chicago Chant “Death to America”. Where Was the Mainstream Media on This?

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

Not according to Donald Trump.

 

[Coyote]

There are two different aspect I see, in how Islam/Muslims are attacked.

One is what is in their texts - yet, what is in their text is little different than what is in the OT and NT. There are extortions to peace and tolerance, rules for warfare, rules for how to treat people, extortions to violence. If some one is using that to attack Islam, then it's appropriate to point out the same in other religious texts. The material is there - it's how the followers choose to interpret or what they take that matters.

The other thing is - Today's Religion. What is totally ignored is the majority of Muslims who don't use violence against non-Muslims and instead the focus is on those who do and culture seems to have a good bit of influence there as well. Should there be condemnation for persecution, intolerance of religious minorities etc in Muslim majority countries where that is a problem? Absolutely yes. Those who do that should be condemned and focus should be on protecting minorities and changing those views - but that is not to say it represents all the religion.

Again - look at American Muslims - there is no indication of any of that, or at least not any difference from the non-Muslim community, so why is Islam as a whole attacked rather than the bad players (which would be the case in any other religion)?

Show me a Muslim country that is civilized and not following their barbaric ancient ways. There are what 57 Muslims countries plus Spain, France, Africa, etc. Wherever you find Muslims you have strife.

No, that isn't true - many countries have Muslim populations with no more strife then that caused by other groups. The U.S. for example.

Dearborn Michigan.
Chicago.
Strife is there you just have to open your eyes.
Muslims in Chicago Chant “Death to America”. Where Was the Mainstream Media on This?

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

How has it been debunked when we have video of them saying it.

The audio of the video is very unclear.

In addition to the video being nearly two years old, no portions appeared to include chants of "death to America." A description of the clip stated:


Protest in downtown Chicago. Palestinian supporters were protesting the bombings in Gaza.​

You lost all credibility with that statement.
And Dearborn is trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims.

How is Dearborn trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims (or even muslims)?

 

[Coyote]

Not surprisingly, what we have so far is a variety of non-Muslim opinions of what Muslims in America want.

And not surprisingly, those errant, wrongheaded opinions are coming from those on right the with an unwarranted hostility toward Islam.

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

Most Muslims certainly do not, and when you characterize those who object to a belief system that SHOULD be voluntary by calling them the sort of names used for people who hate those for things that AREN'T voluntary, your name calling only indicates that you do not believe I should have the ability to criticize somebody for a choice they made because they didn't actually have that choice.

We're talking about Muslims in America. Do you have any evidence to indicate that American Muslims do not support freedom of belief?

piss on a Quran and see what they think of your freedom.
Put a Shit covered Quran in a NY museum and see if it gets the same response as the shit covered cross did.

What does that have to do with providing any evidence to indicate that American Muslims do not support freedom of belief?

Remember Piss Christ? That provoked a lot of outrage and some violence.

 

[Slyhunter]

Show me a Muslim country that is civilized and not following their barbaric ancient ways. There are what 57 Muslims countries plus Spain, France, Africa, etc. Wherever you find Muslims you have strife.

No, that isn't true - many countries have Muslim populations with no more strife then that caused by other groups. The U.S. for example.

Dearborn Michigan.
Chicago.
Strife is there you just have to open your eyes.
Muslims in Chicago Chant “Death to America”. Where Was the Mainstream Media on This?

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

How has it been debunked when we have video of them saying it.

The audio of the video is very unclear.

In addition to the video being nearly two years old, no portions appeared to include chants of "death to America." A description of the clip stated:


Protest in downtown Chicago. Palestinian supporters were protesting the bombings in Gaza.​

You lost all credibility with that statement.
And Dearborn is trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims.

How is Dearborn trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims (or even muslims)?

By praying in the streets and clogging up traffic, are you dense?
Debunked hell your just trying to see how many people will put you on ignore for such bullshit your spouting.
City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

Nobody is that fucking stupid.

In a surprise weekend vote, the city council of Dearborn, Michigan voted 4-3 to became the first US city to officially implement all aspects of Sharia Law. The tough new law, slated to go into effect January 1st, addresses secular law including crime, politics and economics as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, fasting, prayer, diet and hygiene.

The new law could see citizens stoned for adultery or having a limb amputated for theft. Lesser offenses, such as drinking alcohol or abortion, could result in flogging and/or caning. In addition, the law imposes harsh laws with regards to women and allows for child marriage.

- See more at: City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

I'm getting sick and tired of ignorant liberals.

 

[Slyhunter]

Not surprisingly, what we have so far is a variety of non-Muslim opinions of what Muslims in America want.

And not surprisingly, those errant, wrongheaded opinions are coming from those on right the with an unwarranted hostility toward Islam.

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

Most Muslims certainly do not, and when you characterize those who object to a belief system that SHOULD be voluntary by calling them the sort of names used for people who hate those for things that AREN'T voluntary, your name calling only indicates that you do not believe I should have the ability to criticize somebody for a choice they made because they didn't actually have that choice.

We're talking about Muslims in America. Do you have any evidence to indicate that American Muslims do not support freedom of belief?

piss on a Quran and see what they think of your freedom.
Put a Shit covered Quran in a NY museum and see if it gets the same response as the shit covered cross did.

What does that have to do with providing any evidence to indicate that American Muslims do not support freedom of belief?

Remember Piss Christ? That provoked a lot of outrage and some violence.

How many people got beheaded or raped? How many got thrown off a damn building for being gay?
Christians don't do that shit, Muslims do.

 

[Coyote]

No, that isn't true - many countries have Muslim populations with no more strife then that caused by other groups. The U.S. for example.

Dearborn Michigan.
Chicago.
Strife is there you just have to open your eyes.
Muslims in Chicago Chant “Death to America”. Where Was the Mainstream Media on This?

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

How has it been debunked when we have video of them saying it.

The audio of the video is very unclear.

In addition to the video being nearly two years old, no portions appeared to include chants of "death to America." A description of the clip stated:


Protest in downtown Chicago. Palestinian supporters were protesting the bombings in Gaza.​

You lost all credibility with that statement.
And Dearborn is trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims.

How is Dearborn trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims (or even muslims)?

By praying in the streets and clogging up traffic, are you dense?
Debunked hell xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

Praying in the streets and clogging up traffic? How often does that ever happen?

In a surprise weekend vote, the city council of Dearborn, Michigan voted 4-3 to became the first US city to officially implement all aspects of Sharia Law. The tough new law, slated to go into effect January 1st, addresses secular law including crime, politics and economics as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, fasting, prayer, diet and hygiene.

Debunked yes: City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

The new law could see citizens stoned for adultery or having a limb amputated for theft. Lesser offenses, such as drinking alcohol or abortion, could result in flogging and/or caning. In addition, the law imposes harsh laws with regards to women and allows for child marriage.

Perhaps you can provide the specific law, if it's a reality?

- See more at: City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law
I'm getting sick and tired of ignorant liberals.

 

[Jroc]

It all depends on the Muslim, some want to assimilate and others, the radical ones, want to impose their beliefs and law. Same as with any other group

Agree, all groups have their lunatic fringe.

I cringe when what I call radical Christians say or do stupid stuff. There was one going through Target stores spewing nonsense, she wasn't doing herself any favors and looked like a nut

I imagine that moderate muslims in the U.S. feel the same way, along with feeling afraid that their children who are having difficulties with being immigrants or refugees, will be recruited by Islamist groups.

It's hard when kids are going through their teens or early twenties...they are all in search of an identity, and immigrant kids even moreso.

I think that is a huge fear, because recruitment - or maybe a better term is "grooming" these children for radicalization is often done under the radar through social media etc that parents aren't aware of. ISIS in particular has become extremely sophisticated at identifying who is vulnerable and targeting them. IMO we need to find ways of combating this before radicalization because once those kids leave the US they are lost.

No need for social media Jew hate is thought in schools

 

[Coyote]

And not surprisingly, those errant, wrongheaded opinions are coming from those on right the with an unwarranted hostility toward Islam.

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

Most Muslims certainly do not, and when you characterize those who object to a belief system that SHOULD be voluntary by calling them the sort of names used for people who hate those for things that AREN'T voluntary, your name calling only indicates that you do not believe I should have the ability to criticize somebody for a choice they made because they didn't actually have that choice.

We're talking about Muslims in America. Do you have any evidence to indicate that American Muslims do not support freedom of belief?

piss on a Quran and see what they think of your freedom.
Put a Shit covered Quran in a NY museum and see if it gets the same response as the shit covered cross did.

What does that have to do with providing any evidence to indicate that American Muslims do not support freedom of belief?

Remember Piss Christ? That provoked a lot of outrage and some violence.

How many people got beheaded or raped? How many got thrown off a damn building for being gay?
Christians don't do that shit, Muslims do.

In the US? No Muslims have thrown gays off a building, only nutters behead, and yes, Christians do rape folks...just like any other group.

 

[Slyhunter]

Dearborn Michigan.
Chicago.
Strife is there you just have to open your eyes.
Muslims in Chicago Chant “Death to America”. Where Was the Mainstream Media on This?

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

How has it been debunked when we have video of them saying it.

The audio of the video is very unclear.

In addition to the video being nearly two years old, no portions appeared to include chants of "death to America." A description of the clip stated:


Protest in downtown Chicago. Palestinian supporters were protesting the bombings in Gaza.​

You lost all credibility with that statement.
And Dearborn is trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims.

How is Dearborn trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims (or even muslims)?

By praying in the streets and clogging up traffic, are you dense?
Debunked hell xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

Praying in the streets and clogging up traffic? How often does that ever happen?

Every Friday.
In some countries 3 times a day 7 days a week.

In a surprise weekend vote, the city council of Dearborn, Michigan voted 4-3 to became the first US city to officially implement all aspects of Sharia Law. The tough new law, slated to go into effect January 1st, addresses secular law including crime, politics and economics as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, fasting, prayer, diet and hygiene.

Debunked yes: City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

The new law could see citizens stoned for adultery or having a limb amputated for theft. Lesser offenses, such as drinking alcohol or abortion, could result in flogging and/or caning. In addition, the law imposes harsh laws with regards to women and allows for child marriage.

Perhaps you can provide the specific law, if it's a reality?

- See more at: City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law
I'm getting sick and tired of ignorant liberals.

It's in the link.

 

[Arianrhod]

I can't believe some people are still falling for that fairy tale...

 

[Ravi]

What does the Bible say about rape?

That is what I remembered. The passages in the Koran are making the same point. Neither condones rape.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

What strife?

Dearborn has no problems.

The so called "death to america" chant has been debunked.

How has it been debunked when we have video of them saying it.

The audio of the video is very unclear.

In addition to the video being nearly two years old, no portions appeared to include chants of "death to America." A description of the clip stated:


Protest in downtown Chicago. Palestinian supporters were protesting the bombings in Gaza.​

You lost all credibility with that statement.
And Dearborn is trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims.

How is Dearborn trying to force Sharia law on non-muslims (or even muslims)?

By praying in the streets and clogging up traffic, are you dense?
Debunked hell xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

Praying in the streets and clogging up traffic? How often does that ever happen?

Every Friday.
In some countries 3 times a day 7 days a week.

In a surprise weekend vote, the city council of Dearborn, Michigan voted 4-3 to became the first US city to officially implement all aspects of Sharia Law. The tough new law, slated to go into effect January 1st, addresses secular law including crime, politics and economics as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, fasting, prayer, diet and hygiene.

Debunked yes: City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law

The new law could see citizens stoned for adultery or having a limb amputated for theft. Lesser offenses, such as drinking alcohol or abortion, could result in flogging and/or caning. In addition, the law imposes harsh laws with regards to women and allows for child marriage.

Perhaps you can provide the specific law, if it's a reality?

- See more at: City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law
I'm getting sick and tired of ignorant liberals.

It's in the link.

You're kidding, right?

National Report is a news and political satire web publication, which may or may not use real names, often in semi-real or mostly fictitious ways. All news articles contained within National Report are fiction, and presumably fake news. Any resemblance to the truth is purely coincidental. Advice given is NOT to be construed as professional. If you are in need of professional help, please consult a professional. National Report is not intended for children under the age of 18.

Disclaimer - National Report

 

[Mudda]

"51% of U.S. Muslims want Sharia; 60% of young Muslims more loyal to Islam than to U.S."

51% of U.S. Muslims want Sharia; 60% of young Muslims more loyal to Islam than to U.S.

And don't forget to add all the liars to the 51%, and all the people too afraid to say it to a census person... And the question "would you mind if the US was sharia?" wasn't asked, which would have added a whole bunch of Islamists.

 

[Mudda]

What does the Bible say about rape?

That is what I remembered. The passages in the Koran are making the same point. Neither condones rape.

"there are several verses in this book (koran) which give the green light to rape and other sexual crimes against women."

Rape in Islam - WikiIslam

It goes on to give a list of verses.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

What does the Bible say about rape?

That is what I remembered. The passages in the Koran are making the same point. Neither condones rape.

"there are several verses in this book (koran) which give the green light to rape and other sexual crimes against women."

Rape in Islam - WikiIslam

It goes on to give a list of verses.

I am struggling with this assertion that only Muslims do bad things and that we never hear of Christians doing bad things.

Bosnian genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The evidence is that Christians are more than capable of savage behaviour and it doesnt help the debate to continually deny the fact.

 

[gipper]

What does the Bible say about rape?

That is what I remembered. The passages in the Koran are making the same point. Neither condones rape.

"there are several verses in this book (koran) which give the green light to rape and other sexual crimes against women."

Rape in Islam - WikiIslam

It goes on to give a list of verses.

I am struggling with this assertion that only Muslims do bad things and that we never hear of Christians doing bad things.

Bosnian genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The evidence is that Christians are more than capable of savage behaviour and it doesnt help the debate to continually deny the fact.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

No one stated Christians never do bad things nor did anyone state only Muslims do bad things.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx