What gives us the right?

[Redfish]

We have free speech to express our concerns and defend our arguments and beliefs based on human dignity and inclusion without discrimination.

On that note, we are LIMITED in our influence if we, ourselves, discriminate and aren't true to our own word. We lose authority where we contradict ourselves.

* We claim to respect religious freedom, but one group bashes and hates Christians and sues over crosses out of intolerance blamed on others, while another blames all Muslims for what Jihadists are doing to kill and terrorize innocent Muslims equally as nonMuslims.
How can we preach to China or Korea about religious tolerance and freedom without pointing the finger at ourselves?

* We claim to respect Constitutional laws, but abuse party politics to impose laws that either ban or force gay marriage against the beliefs of others; or threaten to impose laws forcing prochoice or prolife views, and now ACA mandates, against the beliefs of other people and parites discriminated against and blamed for disagreeing with us.

If we can't even follow our own laws on inclusion, and not discriminating by law against people of different views, what business do we have preaching to anyone else?

We have free speech to express our principles. And also freedom to talk out of our hats, put our foot in our mouth, and admit these faults are mutual when someone calls us out.
When we reach that realization, and agreement to help each other correct problems we all share, that is when we empower change by working together in partnership.

What gives us the right to force homosexuality on Russia? Who do we think we are that we can tell another large country that they must accept homosexuality as normal?

If the Russian people want to treat homosexuality as a perversion, what gives us the right to send a delegation of gays over to tell them they are wrong?

We cannot tell muslims that they are wrong, we cannot say Christian prayers at high school ball games, we cannot put a manger scene in front of a public building, we say nothing about the persecution of Christians in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

But we get all spun up about gaydom and think we can force Russia to change their polciies on gays.

WTF is going on? We have become a nation of hypocrites.

Good points, I think you are saying we should convince by example, but our example sucks right now.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi Luddly as we know, the US has deplorable conditions and abuses in our prisons
as well. The more we clean up our messes, the more influence in inspiring change.

On that note, you mention "constitutional guaranteed equality for us all"

where is that when it comes to people who believe in free choice for providing
health care without federally mandated insurance we BELIEVE to be
fundamentally against the Constitution and which requires a voted on Amendment.

Where is the equality and inclusion for everyone who has different
approaches to helping serve the public with health care for all?

The ACA doesn't serve all people, but only requires insurance companies
to receive our tax dollars. Charities that serve the poor directly don't count.

How is this constitutional equality, Luddly?

Nothing. Russia is well known for human rights abuses and this issue is no different.

Just be glad you live in the US where we have the constitutionally guaranteed equality for all of us. Be grateful that your own country fights for equality, where diversity is welcomed and celebrated and where no one would ever believe they have the right to impose heterosexuality on anyone.

I think the real question is, will Putin ever come out of the closet?

Oh yeah, and what's this about us 'sending a delegation of gays over to tell them they are wrong'? Are you really saying the United States sent some sort of official delegation to Russia to "tell them they are wrong"?

 

[BlindBoo]

What gives us the right to force homosexuality on Russia? Who do we think we are that we can tell another large country that they must accept homosexuality as normal?

If the Russian people want to treat homosexuality as a perversion, what gives us the right to send a delegation of gays over to tell them they are wrong?

We cannot tell muslims that they are wrong, we cannot say Christian prayers at high school ball games, we cannot put a manger scene in front of a public building, we say nothing about the persecution of Christians in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

But we get all spun up about gaydom and think we can force Russia to change their polciies on gays.

WTF is going on? We have become a nation of hypocrites.

we have always tried to foster civil rights and interjected when civil rights were violated.

why should Russia be any different because you don't like gays?

and don't forget, their bigoted policies affect us in that they won't allow adoptions to be completed by anyone in this country, whether gay or straight.

The answer is simple-----------Russia is not part of the USA.

our constitution, laws, and bill of rights do not apply outside the borders of the USA.

Other countries have the right to establish their laws, rights, and morals. We have no superior right to tell them they are wrong.

Its that kind of arrogance that causes much of the problems in the world.

But we do have a right to tell them we think they are wrong. They of course have every right to tell us to fuck off too. Furthermore the world has a superior right to act against a country if the world community feel that the wrong is grievous enough.

 

[jillian]

What gives us the right to force homosexuality on Russia? Who do we think we are that we can tell another large country that they must accept homosexuality as normal?

If the Russian people want to treat homosexuality as a perversion, what gives us the right to send a delegation of gays over to tell them they are wrong?

We cannot tell muslims that they are wrong, we cannot say Christian prayers at high school ball games, we cannot put a manger scene in front of a public building, we say nothing about the persecution of Christians in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

But we get all spun up about gaydom and think we can force Russia to change their polciies on gays.

WTF is going on? We have become a nation of hypocrites.

we have always tried to foster civil rights and interjected when civil rights were violated.

why should Russia be any different because you don't like gays?

and don't forget, their bigoted policies affect us in that they won't allow adoptions to be completed by anyone in this country, whether gay or straight.

The answer is simple-----------Russia is not part of the USA.

our constitution, laws, and bill of rights do not apply outside the borders of the USA.

Other countries have the right to establish their laws, rights, and morals. We have no superior right to tell them they are wrong.

Its that kind of arrogance that causes much of the problems in the world.

try re-reading my post.

we can absolutely give our opinion of their bigoted, ignorant, stupid policies. and if we're sending our athletes there, we have an absolute right to comment LOUDLY about the fact that they are bigoted scum and that their laws (pushed by our most rabid wingnuts) are not laws that should be part of any civilized nation.

and AGAIN as was pointed out ... their idiocy is affecting our citizenry.

beyond that, I don't see us passing any laws which we claim Russia is subject to.

as far as i'm concerned, we also have every right to refuse to do business with countries that aren't signatories to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

so I think, perhaps, you need to get over it.

 

[Redfish]

we have always tried to foster civil rights and interjected when civil rights were violated.

why should Russia be any different because you don't like gays?

and don't forget, their bigoted policies affect us in that they won't allow adoptions to be completed by anyone in this country, whether gay or straight.

The answer is simple-----------Russia is not part of the USA.

our constitution, laws, and bill of rights do not apply outside the borders of the USA.

Other countries have the right to establish their laws, rights, and morals. We have no superior right to tell them they are wrong.

Its that kind of arrogance that causes much of the problems in the world.

But we do have a right to tell them we think they are wrong. They of course have every right to tell us to fuck off too. Furthermore the world has a superior right to act against a country if the world community feel that the wrong is grievous enough.

Really, could you please give me a reference to those world wide statutes that allow the "world community" to attack a country that they disagree with?

what court enforces those statutes, who signed off on them, who enforces them?

For one final time: What makes our beliefs and customs superior to any other country's and what gives us the right to tell them that theirs are wrong?

what you say is completely valid within the USA, I am asking by what authority do we try to impose them on other countries.?

 

[Redfish]

we have always tried to foster civil rights and interjected when civil rights were violated.

why should Russia be any different because you don't like gays?

and don't forget, their bigoted policies affect us in that they won't allow adoptions to be completed by anyone in this country, whether gay or straight.

The answer is simple-----------Russia is not part of the USA.

our constitution, laws, and bill of rights do not apply outside the borders of the USA.

Other countries have the right to establish their laws, rights, and morals. We have no superior right to tell them they are wrong.

Its that kind of arrogance that causes much of the problems in the world.

try re-reading my post.

we can absolutely give our opinion of their bigoted, ignorant, stupid policies. and if we're sending our athletes there, we have an absolute right to comment LOUDLY about the fact that they are bigoted scum and that their laws (pushed by our most rabid wingnuts) are not laws that should be part of any civilized nation.

and AGAIN as was pointed out ... their idiocy is affecting our citizenry.

beyond that, I don't see us passing any laws which we claim Russia is subject to.

as far as i'm concerned, we also have every right to refuse to do business with countries that aren't signatories to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

so I think, perhaps, you need to get over it.

I agree with everything you said. But thats not what this is about.

The question is what makes us right and them wrong? They think they are right, what makes our beliefs superior? Why do we think we should convince the world to live and believe as we do?

Why can't we just stay out of their internal affairs? Why are we so fucking arrogant?

 

[BlindBoo]

The answer is simple-----------Russia is not part of the USA.

our constitution, laws, and bill of rights do not apply outside the borders of the USA.

Other countries have the right to establish their laws, rights, and morals. We have no superior right to tell them they are wrong.

Its that kind of arrogance that causes much of the problems in the world.

But we do have a right to tell them we think they are wrong. They of course have every right to tell us to fuck off too. Furthermore the world has a superior right to act against a country if the world community feel that the wrong is grievous enough.

Really, could you please give me a reference to those world wide statutes that allow the "world community" to attack a country that they disagree with?

what court enforces those statutes, who signed off on them, who enforces them?

For one final time: What makes our beliefs and customs superior to any other country's and what gives us the right to tell them that theirs are wrong?

what you say is completely valid within the USA, I am asking by what authority do we try to impose them on other countries.?

The UN Charter and the UN Security Counsel. Member states enforce them. Such as when Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait. We disagreed with that and the UNSC authorized the use of force to remove the Iraqi forces.

I never claimed the USA had any right to force a country to change it's belief or customs. (unless of course it's their belief to kill Americans). Why do you think a talking about an issue like this one with Russia is us trying to force them to change. Trying to talk some sense into them is not forcing them.

 

[Nosmo King]

This we know: there are actions taken by states that are essentially moral and essentially immoral. We know that a state's responsibilities are to serve its citizens. To serve them equally, fairly and justly.

Once a state fails to uphold those universal moral truths, it is the duty of the community of nations to call them on it. Just as our society functions better under the rule of law, the community of nations functions better when there is a belief in basic human rights and the moral obligation of states to uphold the dignity of man.[/quote [MENTION=21954]Sunshine[/MENTION] What did you find in this post to neg me and cal it "disagreeable"? Do you reject the virtues of morality?[/QUOTE]And here I am waiting for an answer. What makes my original post so damn disagreeable?

[MENTION=21954]Sunshine[/MENTION]

 

[bendog]

So you believe that Gay's (or our Government) should not have the right to protest Russia (or any other country) when they passed their Anti-gay propaganda laws. Got it.

Apparently, it's ok to the RW to call out totalitarian govts for not allowing equal economic rights to all citizens, but no ok to call them out for denying civil rights to GLBT.

I thought this comment upon America interesting

Tocqueville was fascinated by the question of what democracy in America would look like, because he thought it was inevitable that the rest of Western civilization would soon follow it in building societies dedicated to equality. But he was also filled with "a sort of religious terror...by the sight of this irresistible revolution that for so many centuries has marched over all obstacles, and that one sees still advancing today amid the ruins it has made."
How Christianity gave us gay marriage - The Week

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the GLBT agenda is not a high priority with 98% of the people in the world.

There are thousands of issues that take precedence with most of the world. Only people like you and a few hollyloonies make this a big deal.

Apparantly W. Europe, NZ, Aust, Canada and the US escaped you attention.

 

[Redfish]

Apparently, it's ok to the RW to call out totalitarian govts for not allowing equal economic rights to all citizens, but no ok to call them out for denying civil rights to GLBT.

I thought this comment upon America interesting

Tocqueville was fascinated by the question of what democracy in America would look like, because he thought it was inevitable that the rest of Western civilization would soon follow it in building societies dedicated to equality. But he was also filled with "a sort of religious terror...by the sight of this irresistible revolution that for so many centuries has marched over all obstacles, and that one sees still advancing today amid the ruins it has made."
How Christianity gave us gay marriage - The Week

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the GLBT agenda is not a high priority with 98% of the people in the world.

There are thousands of issues that take precedence with most of the world. Only people like you and a few hollyloonies make this a big deal.

Apparantly W. Europe, NZ, Aust, Canada and the US escaped you attention.

those countries have taken liberal policies towards gays, I have no issue with that. But I stand by my claim that gaydom is not a big issue with 98% of the people of the world.

 

[Redfish]

But we do have a right to tell them we think they are wrong. They of course have every right to tell us to fuck off too. Furthermore the world has a superior right to act against a country if the world community feel that the wrong is grievous enough.

Really, could you please give me a reference to those world wide statutes that allow the "world community" to attack a country that they disagree with?

what court enforces those statutes, who signed off on them, who enforces them?

For one final time: What makes our beliefs and customs superior to any other country's and what gives us the right to tell them that theirs are wrong?

what you say is completely valid within the USA, I am asking by what authority do we try to impose them on other countries.?

The UN Charter and the UN Security Counsel. Member states enforce them. Such as when Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait. We disagreed with that and the UNSC authorized the use of force to remove the Iraqi forces.

I never claimed the USA had any right to force a country to change it's belief or customs. (unless of course it's their belief to kill Americans). Why do you think a talking about an issue like this one with Russia is us trying to force them to change. Trying to talk some sense into them is not forcing them.

The UN has no authority to enforce anything. The UN has no authority at all, it is a joke.

My question, which you either refuse or are unable to answer, is what makes our beliefs superior to those of any other country?

What makes us right and them wrong?

 

[BlindBoo]

Really, could you please give me a reference to those world wide statutes that allow the "world community" to attack a country that they disagree with?

what court enforces those statutes, who signed off on them, who enforces them?

For one final time: What makes our beliefs and customs superior to any other country's and what gives us the right to tell them that theirs are wrong?

what you say is completely valid within the USA, I am asking by what authority do we try to impose them on other countries.?

The UN Charter and the UN Security Counsel. Member states enforce them. Such as when Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait. We disagreed with that and the UNSC authorized the use of force to remove the Iraqi forces.

I never claimed the USA had any right to force a country to change it's belief or customs. (unless of course it's their belief to kill Americans). Why do you think a talking about an issue like this one with Russia is us trying to force them to change. Trying to talk some sense into them is not forcing them.

The UN has no authority to enforce anything. The UN has no authority at all, it is a joke.

My question, which you either refuse or are unable to answer, is what makes our beliefs superior to those of any other country?

What makes us right and them wrong?

The UNSC can and does enforce it's will upon the world. The UN has no military and it relies on it's members to carry out policy on a voluntary basis.

The view that gay people should not be subject to persecution or harassment for being who they are. They should not have to live in a closet. It's this liberals opinion. I feel that it is just as superior as the view that people should not be executed for consensual sex, or practicing their faith. It doesn't matter what country your talking about either as I'm sure most country have folks with varying opinions on the matter.

 

[Sunshine]

This we know: there are actions taken by states that are essentially moral and essentially immoral. We know that a state's responsibilities are to serve its citizens. To serve them equally, fairly and justly.

Once a state fails to uphold those universal moral truths, it is the duty of the community of nations to call them on it. Just as our society functions better under the rule of law, the community of nations functions better when there is a belief in basic human rights and the moral obligation of states to uphold the dignity of man.[/quote [MENTION=21954]Sunshine[/MENTION] What did you find in this post to neg me and cal it "disagreeable"? Do you reject the virtues of morality?And here I am waiting for an answer. What makes my original post so damn disagreeable?

[MENTION=21954]Sunshine[/MENTION]

The vast majority of Americans do not agree with your 'morality' because it is nothing more than the old immorality. You, your post, your stance on this is not just disagreeable, it is repugnant. Next time I'll give you a stronger neg as you clearly didn't understand this one. Next one you will have no doubt.

And I wish you would learn how to use the quote feature. I'm tired of cleaning up your mess.

 

[Sunshine]

Really, could you please give me a reference to those world wide statutes that allow the "world community" to attack a country that they disagree with?

what court enforces those statutes, who signed off on them, who enforces them?

For one final time: What makes our beliefs and customs superior to any other country's and what gives us the right to tell them that theirs are wrong?

what you say is completely valid within the USA, I am asking by what authority do we try to impose them on other countries.?

The UN Charter and the UN Security Counsel. Member states enforce them. Such as when Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait. We disagreed with that and the UNSC authorized the use of force to remove the Iraqi forces.

I never claimed the USA had any right to force a country to change it's belief or customs. (unless of course it's their belief to kill Americans). Why do you think a talking about an issue like this one with Russia is us trying to force them to change. Trying to talk some sense into them is not forcing them.

The UN has no authority to enforce anything. The UN has no authority at all, it is a joke.

My question, which you either refuse or are unable to answer, is what makes our beliefs superior to those of any other country?

What makes us right and them wrong?

If the libs were in disagreement, they would be yelling to the top of their lungs how the US disrespected Russia's values. But beyond that Obama disrespected the values of the majority of Americans as well. Just like everything else, he has run roughshod over the values of the majority. He is a jackass and an oaf.

 

[Rocko]

Redfish hates America. We get it.

 

[Rocko]

You have a problem with the US telling other governments that they should respect the individual rights of all citizens to express themselves and seek the liberty God has blessed them with?

Yes, I do have a problem with that. Its none of our fricken business how the rest of the world likes, what they believe, or what kind of government they have.

If there is a human rights issue to be pursued, the Olympics is the wrong venue. There is Amnesty International. Athletes have worked VERY hard to compete and they should not be punished because their government is not PC enough to suit. All Obama did was try to get one on Putin. Putin is no fool. Obama, and likely some American citizens, will pay. But them to Obama American citizens are just pawns to be used in his little games.

I agree with you, sunshine, that the Olympics should be a platform for sport and competition, and not politics, but Olympics aside, Redshit is saying America doesn't have the right to say anything about humane rights in other societies. That is wrong. It's not only our right, we have an obligation to stand up for humane rights, everywhere.

 

[Nosmo King]

one man's freedom is another man's repression. contrary to popular belief, the USA is not always right.

We should live by our standards and let the rest of the world live by theirs.

Who the fuck are we that we think we are superior to everyone else?

You keep coming back to the notion of superiority or absolute right.

This we know: there are actions taken by states that are essentially moral and essentially immoral. We know that a state's responsibilities are to serve its citizens. To serve them equally, fairly and justly.

Once a state fails to uphold those universal moral truths, it is the duty of the community of nations to call them on it. Just as our society functions better under the rule of law, the community of nations functions better when there is a belief in basic human rights and the moral obligation of states to uphold the dignity of man.

Here's what you don't get-----------eveyone does not share the same beliefs as to what is moral and immoral.

Why can't we live by our rules and let other countries live by theirs? What gives us the right to claim that our beliefs are right and theirs are wrong?

There are absolute moral rights and absolute moral wrongs. Do you believe that there is morality in a concentration camp? Do you believe that there is a moral stand to be held once a government imprisons it's citizens for immutable characteristics? Where's the morality in torture, repression and exhile if no crime is committed?

While I agree that the world does not share a common sense of morality on certain actions, there is a common morality, a common humanity shared by all people. Revolutions occur in every culture because the common morality is broken by an oppressor. Once you have the opportunity to travel and have gained the maturity to understand a common right and wrong, you will get it.

 

[Redfish]

You keep coming back to the notion of superiority or absolute right.

This we know: there are actions taken by states that are essentially moral and essentially immoral. We know that a state's responsibilities are to serve its citizens. To serve them equally, fairly and justly.

Once a state fails to uphold those universal moral truths, it is the duty of the community of nations to call them on it. Just as our society functions better under the rule of law, the community of nations functions better when there is a belief in basic human rights and the moral obligation of states to uphold the dignity of man.

Here's what you don't get-----------eveyone does not share the same beliefs as to what is moral and immoral.

Why can't we live by our rules and let other countries live by theirs? What gives us the right to claim that our beliefs are right and theirs are wrong?

There are absolute moral rights and absolute moral wrongs. Do you believe that there is morality in a concentration camp? Do you believe that there is a moral stand to be held once a government imprisons it's citizens for immutable characteristics? Where's the morality in torture, repression and exhile if no crime is committed?

While I agree that the world does not share a common sense of morality on certain actions, there is a common morality, a common humanity shared by all people. Revolutions occur in every culture because the common morality is broken by an oppressor. Once you have the opportunity to travel and have gained the maturity to understand a common right and wrong, you will get it.

Nice try, but you are the one who is out of touch with reality. I have lived and worked in europe, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, and a short time in Venezuela. I have seen first hand how people feel about the USA when we try to preach to them about how they should adopt our morals and ethics and forget theirs.

Yes, there are some aspects of morality that are common in all cultures. You do not kill other people, you obey the laws of the land you are in, you treat people with respect, you are honest in business dealings.

But what we in the US are trying to do goes far beyond those basic moral beliefs.

Who are we to tell another country that its beliefs on homosexuality are wrong and ours are right? What gives us the moral superiority to preach to the rest of the world?

 

[Redfish]

Yes, I do have a problem with that. Its none of our fricken business how the rest of the world likes, what they believe, or what kind of government they have.

If there is a human rights issue to be pursued, the Olympics is the wrong venue. There is Amnesty International. Athletes have worked VERY hard to compete and they should not be punished because their government is not PC enough to suit. All Obama did was try to get one on Putin. Putin is no fool. Obama, and likely some American citizens, will pay. But them to Obama American citizens are just pawns to be used in his little games.

I agree with you, sunshine, that the Olympics should be a platform for sport and competition, and not politics, but Olympics aside, Redshit is saying America doesn't have the right to say anything about humane rights in other societies. That is wrong. It's not only our right, we have an obligation to stand up for humane rights, everywhere.

Damn, but you libs are thick headed. I never said that we should not express our beliefs and lead by example.

What I said is that its none of our business if another country has beliefs different from ours on gays, religion, or any other topic.

We are not the worlds police force or its morals determiner.

 

[Nosmo King]

If there is a human rights issue to be pursued, the Olympics is the wrong venue. There is Amnesty International. Athletes have worked VERY hard to compete and they should not be punished because their government is not PC enough to suit. All Obama did was try to get one on Putin. Putin is no fool. Obama, and likely some American citizens, will pay. But them to Obama American citizens are just pawns to be used in his little games.

I agree with you, sunshine, that the Olympics should be a platform for sport and competition, and not politics, but Olympics aside, Redshit is saying America doesn't have the right to say anything about humane rights in other societies. That is wrong. It's not only our right, we have an obligation to stand up for humane rights, everywhere.

Damn, but you libs are thick headed. I never said that we should not express our beliefs and lead by example.

What I said is that its none of our business if another country has beliefs different from ours on gays, religion, or any other topic.

We are not the worlds police force or its morals determiner.

Should we extend political asylum to Ugandan homosexuals?