What happened to the jobs?

[flacaltenn]

Bfgrn:

Yeah -- kinda like those JFK moments. I don't mind govt leadership or even sponsorship of R&D. It's FAR preferable to mindless subsidies and jobs programs. (The Lib Party just issued a warrant for my indictment).

editec:

It will no doubt be good for those who are about the business of "nanotechnology, bio-engineering, artificial intelligience, robotics and the like" but it does nothing for the millions upon millions of our FELLOW (formerly tax paying) CITIZENS who are actually being hurt by the changing geo-economical status AND the advances in technology which actually make more and more human labor redundant.

Why do hi-tech manufacturers tend to cluster around major universities? The new jobs will be created in close proximity to the R&D and research. If you change the very materials that are used in manufacturing (nanotech and biotech) and you develop intelligient automation (robotics, artificial intelligience) you will need an entire supply chain for those new manufacturing paradigms. The technology eggheads simply LEAD the industry, they don't monopolize the labor requirements. Remember the web page design bubble? Imagine all those folks writing useful routines for robotic manufacturing. Imagine the test techs and lab techs that will be required in the materials and bio-engineering fields. Opportunities for ALL scales of labor..

MUCXH of the technology leadership created technology here without doubt.

And then when it was time to SCALE UP that techology the factories that create that technology were built, not in the land that cr5eated the science to make that technology possible, but instead whereever the cost of [production was cheapest.

Do try to stick to the subject, okay?

The subject here is not "Is technology a good thing?" but rather "How do we deal with a MACROECONOMIC problem created by stupid free trade policies?"

I am in the bullseye of the subject buddy.. You make CHEAP labor irrelevent by inflating the value of SMART labor. By changing the very ways we produce goods. You stop offshore migration of production because OUR production methods of goods, food, ect are superior to what CHEAP labor can handle.

Not gonna happen here when our kids are not choosing the sciences and engineering. Not gonna happen with a flailing school system more interested in equal outcomes.

There is gonna be a new industrial revolution. We can be part of that -- or we can just belch about the "good ole days".

 

[Brutus]

What an ass. Your statement is pure bluster and totally dependent on who 'YOU' is.

you mean some people are better off if they cant trade and have to make everything themselves?????????? Of course thats impossible.

notice how as a silly liberal you needed to change the subject and could not address the basic Econ 101 argument which is: the more wityh whom you trade the richer you get and the less you trade the poorer you get.

If this is not true then why be so afriad to explain why exactly

Your right wing mind is infested with polarized thinking. People can't make EVERYTHING themselves, but that doesn't mean that can't make MORE things themselves.

sure they can make more things themselves, but the rule is, the more you trade with the richer you get. California could, for example, decide not to trade with China India Europe and NYS. THen they would have to make more things themselves, but they would also become the poorest state in the union.

Remember the rule: the more with whom you trade the richer you get.

Especially if they can gain quality, reliability, know how and lower their cost.

of course if they can gain those things then they would be gaining advantage against international competitional and want to trade more than ever!! See how a liberal will not be abale to pass Econ 101?? Sad but thats the state of America.

And the subject of who YOU is is still valid. If you are trading animal hides and build a plant next to my property, and your plant's toxic waste runs off into my water supply, you are getting rich, and making me poor. You are harming my family and lowering my property value.

these are called neighboorhood effects. Even Milton Friedman(arch conservative free trader) was for making pollution illegal back in the 1950s

 

[MaggieMae]

I feel your gripe about the lack of jobs, but we as a United country need to go back to basic facts of life and stop murmuring like the people that were stuck in the desert for 40 years and were only miles away from the promised land. We complain to much because we had it easy. Let's get up off our rears and create the jobs that the generation before managed. We need to stop crying the blues and dig down deep. Let's create new ways to do old things. Let's find a way to avoid this economic failure again. Let's force the companies that we spend money with, but will not hire us because they fear another crisis coming on, to feel our pain,slow down your spending. Back in the late 1800's to the 1900's people sold their goods in the streets. We complain about China and Mexico stealing jobs because they make the goods we buy cheaper. Well, darn-it make your own and create a made in America attitude again. The more we murmur the less we get. Let's take the Bull by his horns and lead on to victory. It takes a Village to raise everything, not just a child.

I think the generations following WWII, specifically the baby boomers, attempted to make their own offspring so free of any constraints that they themselves might have experienced, that a completely new mindset evolved where today, those offspring and their offspring think they can have it all, at no cost and with no sacrifice to them personally. Most were shocked when it turned out they couldn't, and neither could their government!

But reeducating, especially personal attitudes, isn't something that can ever be legislated. I still don't think that a lot of folks get it that changes come from the bottom (the people) up (to the government). But the tax-someone-else-and-leave-me-alone interpretation of individual "freedom" is what got us (all of us) in debt up to our eyeballs. It isn't just political fluff or a liberal slogan when the words "We're all in this together" are used. We are. And the sooner everyone realizes that, the quicker we'll be back on the road to sustainability.

 

[Moonglow]

There is one thing that Americans can do that will have a tremendous effect.
In fact, it would not only increase employment but increase wages as well.
There is absolutely NOTHING that you can do that would even scratch the surface of what this will do.

Don't buy cheap foreign items from Wal-Mart, Cosco, KMart, Target etc. etc. etc.
Buy American when you can.
You will feel better about your purchase, it will likely be of better quality and last longer - and you can walk around with the knowledge that you help your fellow Americans rather than hurt them.

You can't/won't do this?
Then you have no right to complain about the economy.

Not contradicting you but the USD vs. Yuan ratio is quickly making this position obsolete. Now that China has gotten to a labor shortage (it began in the fall of last year) due to the one child policy it is losing competitive advantage. Africa is getting its act together and India has not yet reached China's point but the era of cheap labor pools overseas is coming to a close.

it is not the one child policy that is hurting china

Many migrant workers say not wanting to leave their children, who were left behind in their hometowns, is the major reason they decided not to go back to the cities, Guangzhou Daily reported on Feb 15, 2011.

Labor shortage hits China

 

[MaggieMae]

...hatred for employers has become so widespread over the past couple years, and my take is that it's a major reason for the lack of hiring...

Have respect for your employees just as you respect your management team, and they will return respect with unquestioned loyalty and productivity...

If that works with your employees then fine. My crew and I like each other and enjoy common goals. Buying people's labor is like buying stuff at the store. We don't do business when we run into snarling hatred because they see us as a bunch of "fat-cats".

Small companies are different, of course. It's kinda difficult to be chummy with 300 people, although one place I worked for about 3 years (a small paper/office equipment company) held a Christmas party for all and a huge company picnic where we all interacted. All company paid of course. It's hardly "buying labor," it's building confidence and developing a family amid your business, apparently a concept lost on most "business" leadership of today. Larger companies usually have got that way by growing exponentially and eventually decentralized into divisions, which have their own employee functions and "perks."

Read Henry Ford's bio who's famous line "I don't want to build a car that my own employees can't afford," (paraphrased), and you'll maybe learn what it's all about.

 

[Brutus]

Don't buy cheap foreign items from Wal-Mart, Cosco, KMart, Target etc. etc. etc.

great, spending $billions more and so getting poorer is what Americas need during a huge recession!!! Notice how a liberal will always everything 100% backwards

If getting poorer made sense we'd simply ban trade with 10-20 or so countries, but our policy is to get richer , not poorer. That apparently is a concept too complex for a liberal to grasp. Go figure.

 

[MaggieMae]

I feel your gripe about the lack of jobs, but we as a United country need to go back to basic facts of life and stop murmuring like the people that were stuck in the desert for 40 years and were only miles away from the promised land. We complain to much because we had it easy. Let's get up off our rears and create the jobs that the generation before managed. We need to stop crying the blues and dig down deep. Let's create new ways to do old things. Let's find a way to avoid this economic failure again. Let's force the companies that we spend money with, but will not hire us because they fear another crisis coming on, to feel our pain,slow down your spending. Back in the late 1800's to the 1900's people sold their goods in the streets. We complain about China and Mexico stealing jobs because they make the goods we buy cheaper. Well, darn-it make your own and create a made in America attitude again. The more we murmur the less we get. Let's take the Bull by his horns and lead on to victory. It takes a Village to raise everything, not just a child.

See -- the deal here Mr. L2U is that FIXING the problem isn't as important to these folks as getting to blame the guilty.. So any solutions, or suggestions or facts are just not part of the discussion..

Pray for this country...

I agree with the blame part, but i want more.

The criminal "pinko-commie" banksters and progressives and media are all criminal traitors to These United States of America. I have heard it said that their heads should be on a pike.

They have convinced the community of labor and guilt-ridden wealthy kids of privilege to become "Progressives" and to become the champions of victimology. This traitor bunch have lead them and led themselves into the plantation slavery gig, again ... undoing what my grandfathers did when they were in blue Union Soldier uniforms and never came home from Gettysburg and Antietam. These traitors have shammed the honor of my grandfathers. They have betrayed These United States of America.

Things need to be put to rights ... not too fast, ... not too slow, ... just proper! {as would be said by the old Northern New Hampshire, Live Free or Die Yankees who taught me to milk a herd of cows by hand and log all winter and sugar {get maple sap for maple syrup} in the spring.

I wish I knew what the hell you were talking about, because I come from dairy farm stock myself and saw both farms in my family go under because of corporate agrifarming. Who are those guys except the very free marketeer giants who will attempt (and usually succeed) in driving all competition from small business (farmers in this case) under water? Ironically, that's progression!! Oh, that evil EVIL word!! Now everyone gets to drink cheap milk while the independent farmer struggles to survive by paying his "slaves" minimum wage just in order to keep the small farm operating and seeing very little profit therefrom. If it weren't for the dairy coops and government subsidies to those local farmers experiencing extreme price reductions due to mass production and marketing, the Vermont (and New Hampshire) landscapes might look vastly different--more Llamas than cows!)

 

[MaggieMae]

This ain't rocket science, kids.

FREE TRADE happened to the jobs, that's what's happened to them.

you mean the ability to import, without tariff, goods from countries that treat their citizens and employees in ways that are illegal in the united states

You also mean high union wages

you also mean having some of the highest corporate taxes and regulations in the world

you also mean a really bad economic team surrounding the president.

I honestly don't know what "the president" (any president for that matter) could have done about the dramatic loss of jobs that would have worked best. Those same union wages, those same corporate taxes and regulations, those same cheap imports were all in place prior to the financial meltdown and the resulting layoffs beginning in 2008. Now there's nothing more "the president" can do, and I reiterate, it's up to the private sector. Period. They still have the low income taxes and they'll just have to deal with the so-called "high" taxes (although that's highly debatable) and alleged restrictive regulations that were already in place before they decided to go to the mattresses and hide from the rest of the crumbling world and blame everyone else.

 

[Brutus]

Now everyone gets to drink cheap milk while the independent farmer struggles to survive by paying his "slaves" minimum wage just in order to keep the small farm operating and seeing very little profit therefrom. If it weren't for the dairy coops and government subsidies

Americans would be living in the stone ago if government put all inefficient and obsolete businesses on welfare.

 

[MaggieMae]

What an ass. Your statement is pure bluster and totally dependent on who 'YOU' is.

you mean some people are better off if they cant trade and have to make everything themselves?????????? Of course thats impossible.

notice how as a silly liberal you needed to change the subject and could not address the basic Econ 101 argument which is: the more wityh whom you trade the richer you get and the less you trade the poorer you get.

If this is not true then why be so afriad to explain why exactly????

I don't even think this particular debate is about that simplistic analysis. It's who and what is traded and, frankly, what the tradeoff is on a national basis, not what an independent entrepreneur decides to "make" or "trade."

 

[Brutus]

frankly, what the tradeoff is on a national basis, not what an independent entrepreneur decides to "make" or "trade."

the trade off on a national basis is 100% crystal clear: the more with whom a nation or individual trades the richer the individual or nation becomes.

 

[MaggieMae]

We live in the 21st century folks and the problems we face are not going to be solved by attempting to apply the political economic theories of the 18th century.

We agree again.. Need to be doing what the economists of the 90's told us to do...

That is making cheap labor irrelevent. Pushing nanotechnology, bio-engineering, artificial intelligience, robotics and the like... MAINTAINING US technical leadership will bring back jobs.

Hoping for the "old jobs" to come back -- ain't in the cards... The government ain't gonna create jobs.. Technology leadership will...

But since we haven't kept up with the technology of other emerging nations like China, we need extensive training and retraining, and Congress bristles at putting up any money to do that. As individuals, most these days are too busy working and trying to hold on to that job and don't have the money to finance alternative or higher education. Education is something we CANNOT continue to keep ignoring, from the disastrous dropout rate to the quality of graduates who get the shock of their lives when they actually enter the work force and realize how little they've actually learned.

 

[MaggieMae]

frankly, what the tradeoff is on a national basis, not what an independent entrepreneur decides to "make" or "trade."

the trade off on a national basis is 100% crystal clear: the more with whom a nation or individual trades the richer the individual or nation becomes.

That's what's desired, but it's often not the case, as you must know. It's why tariffs exist.

 

[Brutus]

frankly, what the tradeoff is on a national basis, not what an independent entrepreneur decides to "make" or "trade."

the trade off on a national basis is 100% crystal clear: the more with whom a nation or individual trades the richer the individual or nation becomes.

That's what's desired, but it's often not the case, as you must know. It's why tariffs exist.

Smoot Hawley Tariff caused the Great Depression, since then virtually 100% of economists have moved the entire world toward tariff free trade becuase free trade makes us richer not poorer.

Imagine if there was no or little trade and you had to make everything yourself?? You get poorer and poorer with less and less tade and richer and richer with more and more trade.

 

[Bfgrn]

What an ass. Your statement is pure bluster and totally dependent on who 'YOU' is.

you mean some people are better off if they cant trade and have to make everything themselves?????????? Of course thats impossible.

notice how as a silly liberal you needed to change the subject and could not address the basic Econ 101 argument which is: the more wityh whom you trade the richer you get and the less you trade the poorer you get.

If this is not true then why be so afriad to explain why exactly

Your right wing mind is infested with polarized thinking. People can't make EVERYTHING themselves, but that doesn't mean that can't make MORE things themselves.

sure they can make more things themselves, but the rule is, the more you trade with the richer you get. California could, for example, decide not to trade with China India Europe and NYS. THen they would have to make more things themselves, but they would also become the poorest state in the union.

Remember the rule: the more with whom you trade the richer you get.

Especially if they can gain quality, reliability, know how and lower their cost.

of course if they can gain those things then they would be gaining advantage against international competitional and want to trade more than ever!! See how a liberal will not be abale to pass Econ 101?? Sad but thats the state of America.

And the subject of who YOU is is still valid. If you are trading animal hides and build a plant next to my property, and your plant's toxic waste runs off into my water supply, you are getting rich, and making me poor. You are harming my family and lowering my property value.

these are called neighboorhood effects. Even Milton Friedman(arch conservative free trader) was for making pollution illegal back in the 1950s

I am not a protectionist, but I am also concerned about jobs for Americans. We need to innovate, spend money as a nation to create new jobs. I refuse to buy into what many conservatives are calling for; removing all regulations and let corporations turn America into another Soviet Union; a environmental and human health time bomb.

China is spending BIG time on green technology over the next decade while we are still arguing over climate change.

 

[Brutus]

I am not a protectionist,

so far you've been 100% protectionist liberal

but I am also concerned about jobs for Americans.

who isn't????????/

We need to innovate, spend money as a nation to create new jobs.

thats dumb and liberal. when the nation spends money its wasted by liberal bureaucrats guessing with other peoples money. When individuals spend their own hard earned money it is not. Thats the general rule to remember!!

I refuse to buy into what many conservatives are calling for; removing all regulations and let corporations turn America into another Soviet Union; a environmental and human health time bomb.

if any significant number are calling for that I'll pay you 10,000. Bet??

China is spending BIG time on green technology over the next decade while we are still arguing over climate change.

wrong wrong wrong!! they are mostly selling idiotic wind mills and solar panels to western liberals. It loses money everywhere except China because they know how to play western liberals.

China puts on a new coal plant every week that produces more new pollution each week than England produces from all old and new sources in a year

 

[Bfgrn]

I am not a protectionist,

so far you've been 100% protectionist liberal

but I am also concerned about jobs for Americans.

who isn't????????/



thats dumb and liberal. when the nation spends money its wasted by liberal bureaucrats guessing with other peoples money. When individuals spend their own hard earned money it is not. Thats the general rule to remember!!

I refuse to buy into what many conservatives are calling for; removing all regulations and let corporations turn America into another Soviet Union; a environmental and human health time bomb.

if any significant number are calling for that I'll pay you 10,000. Bet??

China is spending BIG time on green technology over the next decade while we are still arguing over climate change.

wrong wrong wrong!! they are mostly selling idiotic wind mills and solar panels to western liberals. It loses money everywhere except China because they know how to play western liberals.

China puts on a new coal plant every week that produces more new pollution each week than England produces from all old and new sources in a year

Listen, I am trying to talk in a civil tone. But if you push me, I won't. I will try one more time...also, please just hit the "Quote" button and compose your replies in paragraphs. I can remember what I said. It creates a disjointed conversation.

We have had a decade of the Bush tax cuts that were supposed to create jobs...the results are in: ZERO job growth, a lost decade. Trickle down is a myth.

Aughts were a lost decade for U.S. economy, workers

The only way we move in a new direction is through government investing to create or stimulate new technologies. You may not like to hear that, but it is the truth. We would have never created the aerospace industry without President Kennedy's vision and government spending.

No conservatives are calling for turning America into an environmental and human health time bomb. It just that the many conservatives who ARE calling for removing all regulations on corporations will unwittingly create another Soviet Union...LOL

China IS making a huge commitment to green technology

China pledges 'green' push over next five years

Green China? You'd better believe it

A recent report by the Pew Charitable Trusts shows that China was the world’s number one investor in green energy in 2010.

With a total investment of $54.4 billion, China was well ahead of second-ranked Germany ($41.2 billion) and the US in third place with $34 billion invested, not to mention Australia with $3.3 billion and ranked 12th.

In terms of installed capacity, China’s wind power sector alone doubled every year between 2005 and 2009. According to the latest statistics from the Global Wind Energy Council (GWEC), China added 18.9 GW of new wind power capacity in 2010, thus overtaking the US with the most installed wind power capacity in the world.

China’s parliament, the National People’s Congress (NPC), recently considered a 'New Energy Industry Development Strategy’ which is to be adopted as a major policy document by the State Council (some changes are expected due to the Fukushima nuclear plant disaster).

According to this proposed development strategy, during 2011-2020, China will invest about $800 billion in seven green energy areas, namely, wind, solar, nuclear, bio-energy, hydro, coal cleaning and smart power grid.

 

[Moonglow]

Obama has pushed for more R & D. Good plan, but what straps the US is wars, an overstretched military, and high debt. The world is willing to work for less money, now, but that will not be the case later. We need to susidize our industries just as other countries do. Play the destroy the others currency and drive these people into debt.

 

[Wiseacre]

Thought I'd add this to this thread instead of a new one, the WSJ has an op-ed about teen joblessness. This summer only 24% of teens 16-19 have jobs, the worst number since they started collecting data on this in 1948. That can't be a good thing, fewer young people entering the market.

Some say this condition was exaserbated by the hike in the minimum from $5.15 in 2007 to $725 in 2009, by the Dems. Higher labor costs translates to fewer jobs. Some are even calling for higher wages, up to $8.25. Some 7 million teens had jobs prior to the mw hikes, now it's down to 5 million. No doubt a lot of that is due to the recession, but I'd rather have my kid working somewhere for less money than not.

 

[DavidBL4]

This is definitely the most important topic. It’s time to make important decisions to reverse this trend. We are still loosing jobs! Some “guru” said the jobs are already coming back. Where is it? I did not see it yet.

Make the economy healthy and bring jobs back.

Bringing US debt down and reducing the budget deficit is the most important part of it. It’s like fixing your credit card balance.

Someone started a petition at MyStudentLoker.net to bring the deficit and the debt lower by 1% (from our GDP) every single year. It is the right thing to do. Only, if our politicians are capable doing this.