What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[Coyote]

Would the Arabs on the West Bank like singing Hatikvah (the most beautiful national anthem in the world, both in terms of lyrics and melody)? Would they salute the Israeli flag, with its Star of David? Would they take pride in seeing a Menorah in front of the Knesset, Israel's Parliament? Would they accept the fact that only Hebrew is their national language, now that Arabic has been demoted from that position? Even Mohammed Zoabi, an Arab Israeli Zionist, opposed the Nation-State Law. The answer to all these questions is No. Therefore, even though it's tough for Jews to to give up Judea (their ancestral, historical and Biblical heartland) to those savage Arabs, I see no other way than 2 states.

Valid questions. I'm certain many would.

The hard question is what to do with those who don't. And especially those who use violence and incitement to violence to support their won't.

Give them the choice of full citizenship and full rights or moving.

THEIR choice, not the annexing government.

 

[Coyote]

This thread is NOT about Nazi's, take it elsewhere please.

 

[Coyote]

flacaltenn would love it if you would pitch in. Should Israel just annex? Could it be done in a workable way for all?

 

[Coyote]

Why would it be a 2 track system? Citizenship would be citizenship. At least that way they can vote for their leadership, exist under the same legal protections, and get much needed development funding. And if it is unequal, theycanbetterchallenge it.

Remember?

Interesting and disturbing. I guess this doesn’t bode well for the Arab Israeli citizens down the road. I wonder if they will allowed into the Jewish settlements being promoted?

According to the Haaretz, "The [nation-state] law also includes clauses stating that a 'united Jerusalem' is the capital of Israel and that Hebrew is the country's official language. Another says that 'the state sees the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.'"

The law further rescinds Arabic as an official language, downgrading it to a "special status."

Reuters notes, "Early drafts of the legislation went further in what critics at home and abroad saw as discrimination toward Israel's Arabs, who have long said they are treated as second-class citizens."

The news agency says, "Clauses that were dropped in last-minute political wrangling - and after objections by Israel's president and attorney-general - would have enshrined in law the establishment of Jewish-only communities, and instructed courts to rule according to Jewish ritual law when there were no relevant legal precedents."​

The thing is - it doesn't HAVE to be. If Palestinians were full citizens, they would have at least some political say through the political process.

Israel isn't a fragile nation any more. It's identity is strongly established now, as is it's nature as a Jewish state, with a democratic form of government.

At SOME point, it's going to have to decide how to solve the Palestinian issue in a way that reflects the values it enshrines.

The status quo is unsustainable.

A two state solution is increasingly unlikely.

 

[Coyote]

I keep looking and finding more information....here's another interesting article. Really interesting but also disturbing.

Netanyahu's annexation pledge aside, the two-state solution is already in deep trouble. Here's why. - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

In the absence of “courageous, fair-minded, creative diplomacy,” as Thomas Friedman put it in a recent New York Times op-ed, Israeli and Palestinian leaders have inadvertently allowed free rein to disruptive actors on both the left and the right. Israel’s religious nationalist right has put the country on track for formal annexation of the West Bank, now evident from Netanyahu’s recent electioneering from the mainstage. Beyond the Green Line, rockets from Hamas in Gaza have replaced diplomatic Palestinian foreign policy toward Israel.

While the implementation of Netanyahu’s precise vision relies on his careful maneuvering of future coalition politics, there are several ways the “status quo” is steadily deteriorating right in front of our eyes and annexation is becoming increasingly likely.

The Palestinian Authority and Israel are moving further apart.

It is no secret that Netanyahu and P.A. President Mahmoud Abbas do not like or trust each other. As Israel and the Palestinian Authority move further away from each other’s positions on security and territorial issues, the closer they get to bringing about a binational state — that would spell disaster for both peoples.

Weeks before Netanyahu’s annexation announcement, Abbas vowed that he would no longer adhere to the divisions of the West Bank set in place by the Oslo Accords.

At best, a binational state would likely result in a perpetual political battle for equality between Arabs and Jews — and at worst, apartheid or civil war.

Israeli and Palestinian public opinion is shifting further away from each other and the two-state solution.

It is not just the leadership class that is moving away from a two-state solution. While pluralities still exist in support for two states, polling shows support has declined in recent years to the lowest point in over a decade for both Israelis, to 49 percent, and Palestinians, to 43 percent.

The Israeli public, especially younger Israelis, has undeniably shifted to the right in recent years, and public discourse has steadily tilted away from any language espousing peace. The sentiment that intensified on the eve of Election Day in 2015, with Netanyahu stating that “Arab voters are coming out in droves to the ballot box,” has only increased. In both 2019 elections, Netanyahu’s key challenger, the moderate Blue and White party, has largely ignored the Palestinian issue and any talk of two states.

Palestinians face far more urgent issues than diplomacy.

Living under strict oversight from both Israel and Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, Palestinians enjoy a significantly lower quality of life compared to their Israeli neighbors, making the status quo much less sustainable.

But the drastic lack of trust that the Palestinian public has in the capabilities of its own leadership and institutions to govern is a far more urgent issue than a two-state solution. At the end of last year, more than three-quarters of Palestinians perceived the Palestinian Authority to be corrupt, and nearly two-thirds were demanding Abbas’ resignation (55 percent in the West Bank and 77 percent in the Gaza Strip), according to polling conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. Less than one-third was optimistic about the unity between the two governing regimes.

When compounded with hard-line Israeli rhetoric and tactics, it becomes nearly impossible to even mention two states to Palestinians without coming off as unrealistic and naive.

 

[Shusha]

No. I'm suggesting their control of the WB doesn't have full legitimacy.

Why not?

I think the map says a lot about Israel's long term intentions.

Which map? From which time period? Too much is made of the "swiss cheese" map. Do you know what Israel looks like if you made a map based on the same criteria with Arab citizens of Israel? Oh yeah, "swiss cheese". The map does not prohibit self-determination or sovereignty or one more state in the region.

Here's another way of looking at the map. Its been a hundred years. Israel is absolutely capable of taking every inch of territory it wants. The fact that all that territory was de facto abandoned by Israel and that Arab Palestine still exists as not only an idea but an actual fact on the ground is testament to Israel's restraint.

Now, I will agree with you that the winds have changed in recent years. Just how long should a territory (and a people) be kept in a vacuum in the hopes that one day, maybe, SOMETHING will come in and fill that void? Ten years? A hundred?

You seem to want to say that "time is up" and that Israel should step up and fill that void, while also subtly dissing Israel for her "long term intentions".

But there are actions from Israel that pretty clearly state they have no intention of giving up any of that territory, and there are strong political forces behind it that feel that that territory is, always was, and always should be a part of Israel (particularly from the strongly religious).

Relatively recent developments.

 

[Shusha]

Would the Arabs on the West Bank like singing Hatikvah (the most beautiful national anthem in the world, both in terms of lyrics and melody)? Would they salute the Israeli flag, with its Star of David? Would they take pride in seeing a Menorah in front of the Knesset, Israel's Parliament? Would they accept the fact that only Hebrew is their national language, now that Arabic has been demoted from that position? Even Mohammed Zoabi, an Arab Israeli Zionist, opposed the Nation-State Law. The answer to all these questions is No. Therefore, even though it's tough for Jews to to give up Judea (their ancestral, historical and Biblical heartland) to those savage Arabs, I see no other way than 2 states.

Valid questions. I'm certain many would.

The hard question is what to do with those who don't. And especially those who use violence and incitement to violence to support their won't.

Give them the choice of full citizenship and full rights or moving.

THEIR choice, not the annexing government.

To be clear, you would support the expulsion of those who use violence and incitement to violence? Their choice.

 

[Shusha]

At SOME point, it's going to have to decide how to solve the Palestinian issue in a way that reflects the values it enshrines.

Israel is not responsible for solving the "Palestinian issue".

 

[Coyote]

No. I'm suggesting their control of the WB doesn't have full legitimacy.

Why not?

If it did, there would be no questions about it being occupied or disputed - both terms that are used today.

I think the map says a lot about Israel's long term intentions.

Which map? From which time period? Too much is made of the "swiss cheese" map. Do you know what Israel looks like if you made a map based on the same criteria with Arab citizens of Israel? Oh yeah, "swiss cheese". The map does not prohibit self-determination or sovereignty or one more state in the region.

The most current map. And no...too much isn't made of it. It very clearly illustrates Israel's overall plan of demographic change for that area to solidify control. And yes realistically it does greatly impede a two state solution. In an ideal world it wouldn't. But this is nowhere near an ideal world.

Here's another way of looking at the map. Its been a hundred years. Israel is absolutely capable of taking every inch of territory it wants. The fact that all that territory was de facto abandoned by Israel and that Arab Palestine still exists as not only an idea but an actual fact on the ground is testament to Israel's restraint.

Nope. I don't see it that way at all. Israel is technically capable of taking it but it hasn't, imo, due less to "restraintl" then to the divisive internal politics surrounding it, and the fact that taking it creates serious security and control challenges to hold it, unless there is enough of a demographic change. I think this is what the dominant political faction has been working towards for a long time.

Now, I will agree with you that the winds have changed in recent years. Just how long should a territory (and a people) be kept in a vacuum in the hopes that one day, maybe, SOMETHING will come in and fill that void? Ten years? A hundred?

Good question. Do you mean the Palestinian people or the Israeli people or both?

You seem to want to say that "time is up" and that Israel should step up and fill that void, while also subtly dissing Israel for her "long term intentions".

It's not any sort of subtle "dissing" - it's an expression of fact (as I see it). I think that while some in Israel did and do support a two state solution, I think there is a significant political faction that never intended that to come about just as there was a significant political faction among the Palestinians. The only difference is Israel has the power. I think it's time to acknowledge that Israel isn't exactly an angel in this either.

But there are actions from Israel that pretty clearly state they have no intention of giving up any of that territory, and there are strong political forces behind it that feel that that territory is, always was, and always should be a part of Israel (particularly from the strongly religious).

Relatively recent developments.

I don't think so. The growth and spread and legalization of so many settlements and outposts has been on going for some time. Not "relatively recent". It isn't an argument about whether Jews have a right to live there or not - it's about the the effects of demographic change on a 2-state plan.

You and I both, I think, agree that an ideal solution, two states would accept each others people's as citizens in the new state, without expelling people. But realistically - I doubt it. I doubt many Palestinians would be willing to allow Jewish settlers to remain and I doubt many Jewish settlers would be willing to be citizens of Palestine. That's where reality meets idealization and politicians are nothing if not pragmatic. Create a demographic situation that makes eventual annexation all but inevitable. So why not just do it?

 

[Coyote]

At SOME point, it's going to have to decide how to solve the Palestinian issue in a way that reflects the values it enshrines.

Israel is not responsible for solving the "Palestinian issue".

Yes. They are. Along with the Palestinians. Because it's not a "Palestinian issue". It's a Palestinian/Israeli issue.

 

[Coyote]

Would the Arabs on the West Bank like singing Hatikvah (the most beautiful national anthem in the world, both in terms of lyrics and melody)? Would they salute the Israeli flag, with its Star of David? Would they take pride in seeing a Menorah in front of the Knesset, Israel's Parliament? Would they accept the fact that only Hebrew is their national language, now that Arabic has been demoted from that position? Even Mohammed Zoabi, an Arab Israeli Zionist, opposed the Nation-State Law. The answer to all these questions is No. Therefore, even though it's tough for Jews to to give up Judea (their ancestral, historical and Biblical heartland) to those savage Arabs, I see no other way than 2 states.

Valid questions. I'm certain many would.

The hard question is what to do with those who don't. And especially those who use violence and incitement to violence to support their won't.

Give them the choice of full citizenship and full rights or moving.

THEIR choice, not the annexing government.

To be clear, you would support the expulsion of those who use violence and incitement to violence? Their choice.

Sure. As long as it applies to both.

 

[Coyote]

Could annexation and one state work? (Just talking about Area C, not the rest of the WB or Gaza)

 

[flacaltenn]

Why not?

A two state solution, as originally envisioned, is in a zombie state of perpetual propping up by diplomats. It's support has drastically waned among both Palestinians and Israelis.

With a one state solution (Israel + West Bank) - assuming a scenario where ALL residents are offered the opportunity of citizenship up front, the plus side for Palestinians would be the potential of better representation, political stability, assumption of rights guaranteed by citizenship and funding for infrastructure, education, etc. that is in perpetual shortage with their Palestinian leadership.


Here's what happens if Israel annexes the West Bank and lets Palestinians vote

I actually believe that the standard of living for Israeli Palestinians is good enough that MOST would choose to stay.. After all -- their identity is in those Pali City Centers...

BUT --- the Ha'Aretz article makes some whopping bad assumptions.. They use the voting preferences of CITIZEN ARABS of Israel to predict the make-up of a new Knesset.. That's not what's gonna happen.. The AMBITIONS of Palestinians politically are far more divided than those of current Arab citizens and the ISSUE would be "radical fringe" candidates making it to the Knesset and disrupting the operation and the high LIKELIHOOD that certain Pali cities would choose less democratically oriented governorship than others..

There's already a HUGE disparity in freedom and tolerance between the City Centers.. You can have western women's ware shops in one and not another... The PLURALISTIC tolerant character of how Israel governs would be tested...

I'm all for MAXIMUM choice for folks.. And I think that's best when everyone understand that TOLERANCE is what makes "liberal choice" work... So --- I don't think FULL political assimilation would work at all...

BUT -- I think that "city grants" could be issued to consolidate 80 or 90% of the current Pali populattion in the occupied area.. This allows expansion of the 6 or 7 big city centers to include the Pali villages surrounding the existing city centers.. This is a simple REZONING process. THESE to be run by LOCAL control (as in City States or Emirates) within the West Bank where the remainder of the territory IS annexed as you proposed and governed jointly....

The city states COULD have fixed representation in the Knesset that is JOINTLY APPOINTED by the leaders of the city states... And a "Joint Development Board" established for the West Bank that allows security, tariff, taxes and OTHER issues to be handled...

 

[Shusha]

Would the Arabs on the West Bank like singing Hatikvah (the most beautiful national anthem in the world, both in terms of lyrics and melody)? Would they salute the Israeli flag, with its Star of David? Would they take pride in seeing a Menorah in front of the Knesset, Israel's Parliament? Would they accept the fact that only Hebrew is their national language, now that Arabic has been demoted from that position? Even Mohammed Zoabi, an Arab Israeli Zionist, opposed the Nation-State Law. The answer to all these questions is No. Therefore, even though it's tough for Jews to to give up Judea (their ancestral, historical and Biblical heartland) to those savage Arabs, I see no other way than 2 states.

Valid questions. I'm certain many would.

The hard question is what to do with those who don't. And especially those who use violence and incitement to violence to support their won't.

Give them the choice of full citizenship and full rights or moving.

THEIR choice, not the annexing government.

To be clear, you would support the expulsion of those who use violence and incitement to violence? Their choice.

Sure. As long as it applies to both.

Well, that IS interesting. I always thought you were against that. Certainly seemed to be when suggested by some on Team Israel.

 

[flacaltenn]

flacaltenn would love it if you would pitch in. Should Israel just annex? Could it be done in a workable way for all?

Be careful what you ask for... I don't want to crush your dreams and hopes....

 

[Shusha]

At SOME point, it's going to have to decide how to solve the Palestinian issue in a way that reflects the values it enshrines.

Israel is not responsible for solving the "Palestinian issue".

Yes. They are. Along with the Palestinians. Because it's not a "Palestinian issue". It's a Palestinian/Israeli issue.

Hmmmmmm. I disagree. (Where's the fun in agreeing, right?)

Israel absolutely can not solve any issue which is the responsibility of Palestine. There are two key things which Israel can not do:

1. Compel Arab Palestinian self-determination.
2. End Arab Palestinian Muslim extremism.

All Israel can do is protect its people best it can and wait those things out. Which leaves us with the status quo, right?

 

[flacaltenn]

At SOME point, it's going to have to decide how to solve the Palestinian issue in a way that reflects the values it enshrines.

Israel is not responsible for solving the "Palestinian issue".

Yes. They are. Along with the Palestinians. Because it's not a "Palestinian issue". It's a Palestinian/Israeli issue.

You can't expect ISRAEL to dictate a solution.. For the 109th time, there needs to be a responsible RECOGNIZED leadership that speaks for the Palestinians in occupation in the West Bank....

Probably will never happen..., So the next best thing is to LOCALIZE Pali leadership and governance the way it has ALWAYS BEEN before Europeans redrew the Mid East maps..

Then a coalition of those city leaders would be the de facto NEGOTIATORS for settlement. Works just fine. It's just not been properly proposed and analyzed quite yet... Maybe soon it will be...

 

[Shusha]

So why not just do it?

I think Israel will annex, eventually. Not yet.

• The political will in Israel isn't quite there yet. (Soon).
  
• Normalization with other Arab States is not solidified enough yet. (Making progress).
  
• Arab Palestinians not suffering enough from their own internal problems to rise up against THAT sort of oppression. (That sounds harsh, its not that I want them to suffer, just that they need to drive it from within.)
  
• Need to see who replaces Abbas.
• Iran

 

[P F Tinmore]

Could annexation and one state work? (Just talking about Area C, not the rest of the WB or Gaza)

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

 

[Hollie]

Could annexation and one state work? (Just talking about Area C, not the rest of the WB or Gaza)

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

What sovereign Arab-Moslem territory is occupied?