What is a woman

[Anathema]

It is very easy to define a woman…

A human being with two X chromosomes who has accepted and embraced the feminine and domestic qualities and values which have existed in Western Society for most of the last millennium.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

It is very easy to define a woman…

A human being with two X chromosomes who has accepted and embraced the feminine and domestic qualities and values which have existed in Western Society for most of the last millennium.

That last bit is where "gender" deviates from "biological sex". Which is kind of part of the topic at hand.

 

[Anathema]

That last bit is where "gender" deviates from "biological sex". Which is kind of part of the topic at hand

I do not believe the two things can be separated. A genetic female who does not accept and embrace femininity and domesticity is an aberration which needs to be scrubbed from our society. Just like males who refuse to accept and embrace their role to lead and be the breadwinner of the family.

 

[Hellokitty]

No. But then one needs a certain amount of body fat to survive. One does not need to be a specific biological sex to survive.

We agree, I don't think the medical community should be lying to trans individuals and telling them they can be the opposite biological sex.

But the deeper question is: do you think there is some "conversion therapy" that will work for the gender dysphoric? We know it doesn't actually work for sexual orientation. Is there a CBT treatment that they can undergo?

I don't think "conversion therapy" works which is why I don't support transition. Therapists need to help individuals struggling with gender dysphoria by finding out the root cause of hate for ones own body. Many girls experience GD from past sexual abuse, and many have inner struggle with being lesbian.

You really need to educate yourself on the subject, because it's not a left/right issue. A large % of disagreement for the "science" on all things trans comes from the LGB and feminist communities.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I do not believe the two things can be separated.

Depends on how one defines them.

A genetic female who does not accept and embrace femininity and domesticity is an aberration

This might be a very important point to hash out:

An "abberation" is, technically speaking, a potentially accurate term. Given that the human experience of gender self-identification is a distribution (like a bell curve) the folks who suffer from gender dysphoria will likely be a VERY small number of the population.

The key is not to make the term "abberation" into a pejorative. These people are not "sick", they are just simply a small subset of the entire human experience. And they have an experience that is dramatically different from yours. But that does not make them any less valid.

So if we use terms like "abberation" we risk classifying them as "the other". Someone who isn't quite human.

But that's not helpful in the least. The goal, then, is to agree that it is a relatively rare experience but it is still a fully valid human experience. And the follow-up goal is to HELP, not put hindrances in front of them.

which needs to be scrubbed from our society.

That sounds evil.

Just like males who refuse to accept and embrace their role to lead and be the breadwinner of the family.

Poe?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

We agree, I don't think the medical community should be lying to trans individuals and telling them they can be the opposite biological sex.

I didn't say that. Please do not misrepresent my point.

You really need to educate yourself on the subject, because it's not a left/right issue.

It is not. It is a HUMAN issue.

A large % of disagreement for the "science" on all things trans comes from the LGB and feminist communities.

You know, at the end of the day I generally take this topic as being one of "How can I HELP?" not "How can I build a case to make these people feel like they are an abomination?"

I honestly don't understand why people get so worked up over things that don't directly affect them personally.

If transgendered people were causing nuclear meltdowns and harming countless thousands of people I'd be with the Right there trying to make them go away. But they aren't. They are individuals (and a relatively small number at that) who are feeling a pain I can't even BEGIN to understand. An experience of the self that isn't even imaginable to me.

Why in the name of all that is decent would I do anything but actually LISTEN TO WHAT THEY ARE TELLING ME?

How can I help?

 

[Anathema]

An "abberation" is, technically speaking, a potentially accurate term. Given that the human experience of gender self-identification is a distribution (like a bell curve) the folks who suffer from gender dysphoria will likely be a VERY small number of the population.

A small percent of the population, but one which we risk seeing grow, like the cancer called “feminism” if it’s not properly contained while it still can be.

The key is not to make the term "abberation" into a pejorative. These people are not "sick", they are just simply a small subset of the entire human experience. And they have an experience that is dramatically different from yours. But that does not make them any less valid.

Considering that I have a major, obvious, physical birth defect I understand the idea of being different better than most. The situs that I had no choice about my difference and no ability to hide it. They do.

So if we use terms like "abberation" we risk classifying them as "the other". Someone who isn't quite human

They’re human. What they aren’t is “women”. I have very little use for humanity as a whole and it’s unusual variations even more so.

But that's not helpful in the least. The goal, then, is to agree that it is a relatively rare experience but it is still a fully valid human experience. And the follow-up goal is to HELP, not put hindrances in front of them.

I don’t believe it is a valid experience. I never have and never will.

That sounds evil

It was intended to. Probably fare more than you want to consider.

 

[PoliticalChic]

We agree, I don't think the medical community should be lying to trans individuals and telling them they can be the opposite biological sex.



I don't think "conversion therapy" works which is why I don't support transition. Therapists need to help individuals struggling with gender dysphoria by finding out the root cause of hate for ones own body. Many girls experience GD from past sexual abuse, and many have inner struggle with being lesbian.

You really need to educate yourself on the subject, because it's not a left/right issue. A large % of disagreement for the "science" on all things trans comes from the LGB and feminist communities.

How much the profession has lost in respect by the public as a result.

 

[Hellokitty]

I didn't say that. Please do not misrepresent my point.




It is not. It is a HUMAN issue.



You know, at the end of the day I generally take this topic as being one of "How can I HELP?" not "How can I build a case to make these people feel like they are an abomination?"

I honestly don't understand why people get so worked up over things that don't directly affect them personally.

If transgendered people were causing nuclear meltdowns and harming countless thousands of people I'd be with the Right there trying to make them go away. But they aren't. They are individuals (and a relatively small number at that) who are feeling a pain I can't even BEGIN to understand. An experience of the self that isn't even imaginable to me.

Why in the name of all that is decent would I do anything but actually LISTEN TO WHAT THEY ARE TELLING ME?

How can I help?

I'm not ignoring the pain experienced by people who identify as trans. I disagree with the way much of the medical community is lying to these individuals for profit or lack of courage to stand up to the mob.
I have made that point clear in every post in this conversation.

 

[Woodznutz]

I disagree over whether it needs to be said. Especially on something as meaningless as this forum.

Too late...it's been said.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Too late...it's been said.

Can't unring the bell.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

A small percent of the population, but one which we risk seeing grow,

Not really. It doesn't work like that. It's not like they are going to breed more of themselves.

like the cancer called “feminism” if it’s not properly contained while it still can be.

Feminism is pretty corrosive. It simply wanted women treated as fully human. And now look at our society.

Considering that I have a major, obvious, physical birth defect I understand the idea of being different better than most. The situs that I had no choice about my difference and no ability to hide it. They do.

They have no choice either. Just as I have no choice over my particular affliction which has negatively impacted my life for the entire thing.

So let's not go comparing who has the worse or better affliction.

You are not an "abberation". You're a human. Fully deserving of human compassion and care.

No one who is gender dysphoric woke up one morning and said "Huh, I want to feel gender dysphoric today".

They’re human. What they aren’t is “women”. I have very little use for humanity as a whole and it’s unusual variations even more so.

That last bit is the most disturbing, but it's your life. Perhaps if you have no "dog in this fight" then you could just remain silent. If you are not part of the solution why be part of the problem?

I don’t believe it is a valid experience. I never have and never will.

Then count yourself lucky. What would you say to someone who doesn't believe your "birth defect" is a valid experience?

It was intended to. Probably fare more than you want to consider.

That's your thing then. I hope you are either happy with your darkness or you find your way to something better.

(I rather suspect you are just blustering here for effect. But it's your life, not mine. Just don't act on those darker impulses)

 

[Anathema]

Feminism is pretty corrosive. It simply wanted women treated as fully human. And now look at our society

It was, is, and always will be corrosive; like most “progressive” ideologies.

No one who is gender dysphoric woke up one morning and said "Huh, I want to feel gender dysphoric today".

Yet they did wake up one morning and decide to ACT on those feelings. THAT is the issue.

Perhaps if you have no "dog in this fight" then you could just remain silent. If you are not part of the solution why be part of the problem?

i have a dog in the fight because, unfortunately, I have to live in this world and this society. These people negatively affect the entire world around me, like all progressives and liberals.

Then count yourself lucky. What would you say to someone who doesn't believe your "birth defect" is a valid experience?

A full facial birthmark is pretty difficult to deny, but the complications are. You know what I do with those people… I remove them from my life, permanently. They no longer exist in my world.

That's your thing then. I hope you are either happy with your darkness or you find your way to something better.

Happiness isn’t the point of life. Living properly is. I learned that lesson the hard way.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Yet they did wake up one morning and decide to ACT on those feelings. THAT is the issue.

So they should hide in agony so as not offend your view?

i have a dog in the fight because, unfortunately, I have to live in this world and this society.

Why don't you just "not act on it"?

A full facial birthmark is pretty difficult to deny,

I don't have one. Should I treat you the way you wish to treat them?

Or maybe the fact that YOUR issue is undeniable to the outside world would give you some degree of compassion for those who suffer internally.

I bet my affliction (which I can hide rather well) has caused me just as much horror as yours has caused you.

Happiness isn’t the point of life. Living properly is. I learned that lesson the hard way.

And you are the arbiter of what is "proper"?

 

[Woodznutz]

Yet they did wake up one morning and decide to ACT on those feelings. THAT is the issue.

Great comment.

I read an article once written by a guy who knew he was gay. He stated that he would never act on his homosexuality because he didn't want to bring the dangers upon himself or the shame upon his family. A far cry from the blatant "We're here, we're queer, and we're IN YOUR FAAAAACE" of so many militant LGBTQ folks.

 

[Anathema]

Why don't you just "not act on it"?

That’s exactly what I do. Otherwise there would be a lot more violence around me. I walk away from many situations I want to react to every single day. It’s part of why I try to stay as isolias I can.

I don't have one. Should I treat you the way you wish to treat them?

Go right ahead. The difference with me is that I don’t give a crap what anyone thinks of me. I built up a very thick social callus years ago.,

And you are the arbiter of what is "proper"?

Not in the least. Those decisions were made by a far greater power when it created humanity eons ago.