What is the goal of capitalism?

[Red Front]

I was mocking your claim that anything they do involves the "goodness of their hearts"

Considering how absurd most of your positions are, hard to tell when you're just being sarcastic.

 

[Red Front]

The unemployables you want the government to hire are certainly not very productive.

A study from the International Labour Organization (ILO) shows that workers in poorer countries tend to work longer hours than those in wealthier countries.

You can work your ass off and still not be very productive. As evidenced by the workers in the poorer countries that you're referencing.

The unemployables you want the government to hire are certainly not very productive.

Capitalists don't decide that. I know that's difficult for you to understand.

You can work your ass off and still not be very productive. As evidenced by the workers in the poorer countries that you're referencing.

At least you recognize the poor can work hard and still remain poor. It's in the interest of American big-money capitalists for the poor abroad to remain poor. That's their source of dirt-cheap labor.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Considering how absurd most of your positions are, hard to tell when you're just being sarcastic.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages”​

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Capitalists don't decide that. I know that's difficult for you to understand.



At least you recognize the poor can work hard and still remain poor. It's in the interest of American big-money capitalists for the poor abroad to remain poor. That's their source of dirt-cheap labor.

Capitalists don't decide that.

Capitalists absolutely decide if you are productive enough to keep you employed.
In the long run, only the government can employ huge numbers of the unproductive.

At least you recognize the poor can work hard and still remain poor.

Well, you are pretty clueless when it comes to economics and the real world.

 

[dblack]

The bulk of the wealth of the 10 pct is based on the productivity of the 90 pct.

Why is the 90% giving the 10% their productivity? If they think it isn't fair, they should stop doing that.

 

[Red Front]

Of course, they do. How else are they going to pay for the equipment, rent, inventory, interest, taxes and other costs needed to build and run their businesses?

...or live in a waterfront mansion with a boat slip. Todd conveniently forgots to mention that.

According to Adam Smith, both the "masters" (capitalists according to Smith) and their "workmen" (and "servants", two terms used by Smith for employees) inherently have opposite interests.

Adam Smith, Against the masters (1776)

That's one of the many contradictions of capitalism. There's no reason for the people who do the actual physical, drudgerous work (the working class), to allow a wealthy class of elite freeloaders and exploiters (manicured leeches), to pay them less than what they're producing to make a profit. You can complain about the cost of doing business with someone else, we don't give a shit.

You don't give a rat's ass about the needs and aspirations of workers, and we don't give a darn about your cynical, personal aspirations to accumulate capital at our expense.

​

Mass production is a social endeavor, not a private one. Those who work the business should own it together. In the 21st century, there's definitely no need for capitalist masters (privileged riff raffs). Advanced technology liberates the working class and eviscerates, cuts to pieces, the power of the wealthy elitist class of privileged, exploitative unelected masters:

​

Private property, unlike personal property, should be prohibited (eliminated) in society unless owned collectively and democratically. All unelected leadership should be rejected, both in politics and in the workplace. We should have ZERO TOLERANCE for unelected leadership. If someone is chosen by elected leadership, that bureaucrat or manager is still subject to the worker councils, which have the authority to recall (impeach), all elected officials and bureaucrats. The process must be easy, for a worker-council to recall an elected delegate and replace them with someone else. Easy peasy.

What's the distinction between private and personal? Private property is that which can be used to exploit human beings for profit (private capital accumulation). It's those properties that are needed for production (productive properties or enterprises). Personal property, are those properties or possessions that are for your personal use. Your home/s, your garden, your vehicle/s, your personal computer, your smart-phone, your collection of VHS, sci-fi movies from the 1980s, your toothbrush..etc. That's all yours. If you're now paying a mortgage to the bank, or rent to a landlord, you won't be paying that mortgage or rent to anyone, under American, 21st century, democratic socialism. All of those properties are legally yours.

While we have markets and money, we should transition all production to worker-owned, democratically-run co-ops, that way when intelligent robots (advanced automation/autonomous machines) replace human labor (or a significant % of it), society will be able to easily adopt a non-profit, democratic, centrally planned, economic system.

What is a Co-operative?

Co-operatives give people control over things that matter to them. There are nearly 7,000 independent co-operatives working across the economy. They contribu...

www.youtube.com

The federal, state, and local governments will collaborate, working in tandem with worker-run cooperatives (factories and other productive enterprises), labor councils, and unions, to produce and deliver all of the goods and services that people consume and use. At the beginning of the process of transitioning from a privately owned, for-profit system of production, to a non-profit marketless, moneyless society, there's a stage called "socialism", that will include capitalism, capitalists, and their beloved markets, at the beginning of this transformation (this process isn't a magical, instant process, it takes time to peacefully, transition/reform).

This transition should be occurring right now, to avoid the inevitable catastrophic failure (tech-apocalypse) of the economy within the next twenty years due to advanced automation and the war that will likely follow.

Elon Musk Warns The Government "Robots Will Take All Our Jobs" (2017)

Elon Musk Merchandise: https://amzn.to/3jFRA3D (Amazon Link)Elon Musk Biography: https://amzn.to/40uiBHX (Amazon Link)SpaceX Merchandise: https://amzn.to/3RA...

www.youtube.com

Elon Musk says Universal Basic Income is âgoing to be necessary.â

Elon Musk at the World Government Summit 2017 in Dubai. (Full conversation) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lre6GxiQUETranscript: https://medium.com/@0rf/el...

www.youtube.com

Richard Branson: Universal basic income 'will come a...

Richard Branson discusses with CNN's Christine Romans the importance of Universal Basic Income and says that cities should experiment with putting it in place.

www.youtube.com

JOBS Will be Replaced by AI Technology - Tony Robbins How to Change & Adapt the future

Tony Robbins gives advice on how to adjust to an uncertain future Change is inevitable, Progress is what you need to create for yourselfAdapt and Pivot#tonyr...

www.youtube.com

Tony Robbins On Universal Basic Income

Expect significant shifts in the working world over the next decade, says business strategist and No. 1 New York Times best-selling author Tony Robbins.» Sub...

www.youtube.com

If we don't start the transition now, there will be social unrest and bloody class warfare, due to the extreme mass unemployment that is going to inevitably ensue from advanced automation. The smart wealthy ruling elites, know this and they're pushing the government to give everyone a so-called "UBI" or "Universal Basic Income", which is essentially the road to serfdom and perpetual scarcity (techno-feudalism).

ELYSIUM - Official Trailer (HD)

Release Date: 9 August 2013 (United States)In the year 2154, two classes of people exist: the very wealthy, who live on a pristine man-made space station cal...

www.youtube.com

What will happen after that war, is anyone's guess. It can be techno-feudalism that will be the order of the day or maybe, if we're fortunate, democratic socialism (if the socialists win the war). Techno-feudalism is a step backward from capitalism, and socialism is a step forward, to a stateless society (or at least to a society with a small state), without socioeconomic classes or the need for money.

Withering away of the state - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes,[1] and ultimately money[6] and the state.[7][8][9]"

Source: Communism - Wikipedia​

Advanced technology forces society by necessity to adopt a democratic form of socialism (non-profit system of production that is collectively owned and run by the public). That's the natural progression of human production.

We all live in Elysium, or no one lives in Elysium. We all own the intelligent robots, artificial intelligence, factories, and land (the means of production) TOGETHER, or no one owns the technology, factories..etc. No one is going to be consigned to serfdom or the compost heap by the current ruling class.

Todd will throw everyone in the trash bin except his fellow wealthy capitalists. Ironically, due to advanced automation technology, the capitalists will form gated, communist communities, like Elysium. They will become, among themselves (their ilk and class), the future communist elites, while everybody else will be gradually, but surely eliminated, through drugs, crime, prison, pandemics, and war. Ironic isn't it? Don't fall victim to them, organize, unite, and resist.

 

[Oddball]

Capitalists don't decide that.

Capitalists absolutely decide if you are productive enough to keep you employed.
In the long run, only the government can employ huge numbers of the unproductive.

At least you recognize the poor can work hard and still remain poor.

Well, you are pretty clueless when it comes to economics and the real world.

 

[Red Front]

Capitalists don't decide that.

Capitalists absolutely decide if you are productive enough to keep you employed.
In the long run, only the government can employ huge numbers of the unproductive.

At least you recognize the poor can work hard and still remain poor.

Well, you are pretty clueless when it comes to economics and the real world.

Todd is suffering from a hubristic delusion, placing himself and the members of his wealthy, elitist class (a small demographic when compared to the working class) in a position to determine who is and isn't worthy to live. That's essentially the power that he thinks he and his fellow rich privileged elites have over other human beings. What he fails or conveniently refuses to understand, is that he is creating the conditions for a violent revolution, that will result in people like him, not being in that position anymore.

He assumes that if a human being is poor, that person deserves to remain in that condition, irrespective of whether that person is hard-working (as he just admitted, hard-working people are only worthy to live if they can offer surplus value or profits to the rich). Their lives (their labor), belong to a privileged class of capitalist exploiters, who in their insatiable pursuit of capital, feel justified in reducing human beings to commodities and tools (the means of production) within a "labor market". Capitalist, for-profit production, dehumanizes people and alienates them from each other and what they produce. Don't fall prey to the mentality or aspirations of people like Todd. Your personal value as a human being in society is not determined by how useful you are to people like him. Don't allow people like Todd to dehumanize you.

 

[Red Front]

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages”​

Exactly, Todd's worldview creates a society of people without empathy or social consciousness. That soulless, dog-eat-dog world that Todd has created is unsustainable, both ideologically and materially, due to advanced 21st-century automation technology. No masters or unelected leadership allowed.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

...or live in a waterfront mansion with a boat slip. Todd conveniently forgots to mention that.

View attachment 810847​

According to Adam Smith, both the "masters" (capitalists according to Smith) and their "workmen" (and "servants", two terms used by Smith for employees) inherently have opposite interests.

Adam Smith, Against the masters (1776)

That's one of the many contradictions of capitalism. There's no reason for the people who do the actual physical, drudgerous work (the working class), to allow a wealthy class of elite freeloaders and exploiters (manicured leeches), to pay them less than what they're producing to make a profit. You can complain about the cost of doing business with someone else, we don't give a shit.

You don't give a rat's ass about the needs and aspirations of workers, and we don't give a darn about your cynical, personal aspirations to accumulate capital at our expense.

​

Mass production is a social endeavor, not a private one. Those who work the business should own it together. In the 21st century, there's definitely no need for capitalist masters (privileged riff raffs). Advanced technology liberates the working class and eviscerates, cuts to pieces, the power of the wealthy elitist class of privileged, exploitative unelected masters:

View attachment 810842

View attachment 810837

View attachment 810835

View attachment 810834

View attachment 810838

View attachment 810836

​

Private property, unlike personal property, should be prohibited (eliminated) in society unless owned collectively and democratically. All unelected leadership should be rejected, both in politics and in the workplace. We should have ZERO TOLERANCE for unelected leadership. If someone is chosen by elected leadership, that bureaucrat or manager is still subject to the worker councils, which have the authority to recall (impeach), all elected officials and bureaucrats. The process must be easy, for a worker-council to recall an elected delegate and replace them with someone else. Easy peasy.

View attachment 810848

View attachment 810851

View attachment 810852

View attachment 810853​

What's the distinction between private and personal? Private property is that which can be used to exploit human beings for profit (private capital accumulation). It's those properties that are needed for production (productive properties or enterprises). Personal property, are those properties or possessions that are for your personal use. Your home/s, your garden, your vehicle/s, your personal computer, your smart-phone, your collection of VHS, sci-fi movies from the 1980s, your toothbrush..etc. That's all yours. If you're now paying a mortgage to the bank, or rent to a landlord, you won't be paying that mortgage or rent to anyone, under American, 21st century, democratic socialism. All of those properties are legally yours.

While we have markets and money, we should transition all production to worker-owned, democratically-run co-ops, that way when intelligent robots (advanced automation/autonomous machines) replace human labor (or a significant % of it), society will be able to easily adopt a non-profit, democratic, centrally planned, economic system.

What is a Co-operative?

Co-operatives give people control over things that matter to them. There are nearly 7,000 independent co-operatives working across the economy. They contribu...

www.youtube.com

The federal, state, and local governments will collaborate, working in tandem with worker-run cooperatives (factories and other productive enterprises), labor councils, and unions, to produce and deliver all of the goods and services that people consume and use. At the beginning of the process of transitioning from a privately owned, for-profit system of production, to a non-profit marketless, moneyless society, there's a stage called "socialism", that will include capitalism, capitalists, and their beloved markets, at the beginning of this transformation (this process isn't a magical, instant process, it takes time to peacefully, transition/reform).

This transition should be occurring right now, to avoid the inevitable catastrophic failure (tech-apocalypse) of the economy within the next twenty years due to advanced automation and the war that will likely follow.

Elon Musk Warns The Government "Robots Will Take All Our Jobs" (2017)

Elon Musk Merchandise: https://amzn.to/3jFRA3D (Amazon Link)Elon Musk Biography: https://amzn.to/40uiBHX (Amazon Link)SpaceX Merchandise: https://amzn.to/3RA...

www.youtube.com

Elon Musk says Universal Basic Income is âgoing to be necessary.â

Elon Musk at the World Government Summit 2017 in Dubai. (Full conversation) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lre6GxiQUETranscript: https://medium.com/@0rf/el...

www.youtube.com

Richard Branson: Universal basic income 'will come a...

Richard Branson discusses with CNN's Christine Romans the importance of Universal Basic Income and says that cities should experiment with putting it in place.

www.youtube.com

JOBS Will be Replaced by AI Technology - Tony Robbins How to Change & Adapt the future

Tony Robbins gives advice on how to adjust to an uncertain future Change is inevitable, Progress is what you need to create for yourselfAdapt and Pivot#tonyr...

www.youtube.com

Tony Robbins On Universal Basic Income

Expect significant shifts in the working world over the next decade, says business strategist and No. 1 New York Times best-selling author Tony Robbins.» Sub...

www.youtube.com

If we don't start the transition now, there will be social unrest and bloody class warfare, due to the extreme mass unemployment that is going to inevitably ensue from advanced automation. The smart wealthy ruling elites, know this and they're pushing the government to give everyone a so-called "UBI" or "Universal Basic Income", which is essentially the road to serfdom and perpetual scarcity (techno-feudalism).

ELYSIUM - Official Trailer (HD)

Release Date: 9 August 2013 (United States)In the year 2154, two classes of people exist: the very wealthy, who live on a pristine man-made space station cal...

www.youtube.com

What will happen after that war, is anyone's guess. It can be techno-feudalism that will be the order of the day or maybe, if we're fortunate, democratic socialism (if the socialists win the war). Techno-feudalism is a step backward from capitalism, and socialism is a step forward, to a stateless society (or at least to a society with a small state), without socioeconomic classes or the need for money.

Withering away of the state - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes,[1] and ultimately money[6] and the state.[7][8][9]"

Source: Communism - Wikipedia​

Advanced technology forces society by necessity to adopt a democratic form of socialism (non-profit system of production that is collectively owned and run by the public). That's the natural progression of human production.

We all live in Elysium, or no one lives in Elysium. We all own the intelligent robots, artificial intelligence, factories, and land (the means of production) TOGETHER, or no one owns the technology, factories..etc. No one is going to be consigned to serfdom or the compost heap by the current ruling class.

Todd will throw everyone in the trash bin except his fellow wealthy capitalists. Ironically, due to advanced automation technology, the capitalists will form gated, communist communities, like Elysium. They will become, among themselves (their ilk and class), the future communist elites, while everybody else will be gradually, but surely eliminated, through drugs, crime, prison, pandemics, and war. Ironic isn't it? Don't fall victim to them, organize, unite, and resist.

That's one of the many contradictions of capitalism. There's no reason for the people who do the actual physical, drudgerous work (the working class), to allow a wealthy class of elite freeloaders and exploiters (manicured leeches), to pay them less than what they're producing to make a profit.

Obviously, you should force your employer to run the business at break-even.
It worked for the grocery stores in Venezuela, right?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd is suffering from a hubristic delusion, placing himself and the members of his wealthy, elitist class (a small demographic when compared to the working class) in a position to determine who is and isn't worthy to live. That's essentially the power that he thinks he and his fellow rich privileged elites have over other human beings. What he fails or conveniently refuses to understand, is that he is creating the conditions for a violent revolution, that will result in people like him, not being in that position anymore.

He assumes that if a human being is poor, that person deserves to remain in that condition, irrespective of whether that person is hard-working (as he just admitted, hard-working people are only worthy to live if they can offer surplus value or profits to the rich). Their lives (their labor), belong to a privileged class of capitalist exploiters, who in their insatiable pursuit of capital, feel justified in reducing human beings to commodities and tools (the means of production) within a "labor market". Capitalist, for-profit production, dehumanizes people and alienates them from each other and what they produce. Don't fall prey to the mentality or aspirations of people like Todd. Your personal value as a human being in society is not determined by how useful you are to people like Todd. Don't allow people like him to dehumanize you.

Todd is suffering from a hubristic delusion, placing himself and the members of his wealthy, elitist class (a small demographic when compared to the working class) in a position to determine who is and isn't worthy to live.

You're worthy to live, even if you're a useless, whiny commie, but I repeat myself.

He assumes that if a human being is poor, that person deserves to remain in that condition,

Link?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Exactly, Todd's worldview creates a society of people without empathy or social consciousness. That soulless, dog-eat-dog world that you've created is unsustainable, both ideologically and materially, due to advanced 21st-century automation technology. No masters or unelected leadership allowed.

 

[dblack]

That's one of the many contradictions of capitalism. There's no reason for the people who do the actual physical, drudgerous work (the working class), to allow a wealthy class of elite freeloaders and exploiters (manicured leeches), to pay them less than what they're producing to make a profit.

Of course there's a reason. And when you discover that reason, you'll understand what capitalists do for all that "free money".

 

[Red Front]

That's one of the many contradictions of capitalism. There's no reason for the people who do the actual physical, drudgerous work (the working class), to allow a wealthy class of elite freeloaders and exploiters (manicured leeches), to pay them less than what they're producing to make a profit.

Obviously, you should force your employer to run the business at break-even.
It worked for the grocery stores in Venezuela, right?

Notice how Tod conveniently ignored practically every point I made on that post.

Venezuela, a country under the heel of American sanctions and threats of war, is irrelevant to our potential to democratize and socialize production. I'm referring to the United States, not the third world. Todd has no issue forcing people who need to eat and live, under the totalitarian rule of his parasital capitalist class, so why should anyone feel sorry for him?

 

[Red Front]

Here is some more tissue...

That's Russia, not the United States. Notice how Todd continually resorts to cheap smoke-screen, evasive arguments, that rely on Western Cold War propaganda. But Stalin is exactly what is necessary when Todd and his cronies take up arms against the working class. It's called class warfare. If Todd and his wealthy privileged manicured leeches, decide to further enslave the American public, under their wealth and power, the American working class will defend itself, just as the Russian socialists did against the murderous Russian ruling elites and their minions (between 1918 and 1926, the red army fought the "white army" comprised of capitalists, their serfs/slaves, and 200K foreign troops, which unfortunately included the US, UK, and France).

 

[Red Front]

Todd is suffering from a hubristic delusion, placing himself and the members of his wealthy, elitist class (a small demographic when compared to the working class) in a position to determine who is and isn't worthy to live.

You're worthy to live, even if you're a useless, whiny commie, but I repeat myself.

He assumes that if a human being is poor, that person deserves to remain in that condition,

Link?

So you're now admitting that poverty is not necessarily due to "under-production" (not being productive)? Have you seen the light now Todd?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Notice how Tod conveniently ignored practically every point I made on that post.

Venezuela, a country under the heel of American sanctions and threats of war, is irrelevant to our potential to democratize and socialize production. I'm referring to the United States, not the third world. Todd has no issue forcing people who need to eat and live, under the totalitarian rule of his parasital capitalist class, so why should anyone feel sorry for him?

View attachment 810871​

Notice how Tod conveniently ignored practically every point I made on that post.

I didn't ignore your silly points, I chuckled at every single one.

Venezuela, a country under the heel of American sanctions and threats of war, is irrelevant to our potential to democratize and socialize production.

But their regulations of grocery stores were a huge success, right?

Todd has no issue forcing people who need to eat and live, under the totalitarian rule of his parasital capitalist class,

Where did I favor forcing anyone? Link?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So you're now admitting that poverty is not necessarily due to "under-production" (not being productive)? Have you seen the light now Todd?

Poverty is much greater among people with very low productivity than among those with very high productivity.

So, no link?

 

[Red Front]

Notice how Tod conveniently ignored practically every point I made on that post.

I didn't ignore your silly points, I chuckled at every single one.

Venezuela, a country under the heel of American sanctions and threats of war, is irrelevant to our potential to democratize and socialize production.

But their regulations of grocery stores were a huge success, right?

Todd has no issue forcing people who need to eat and live, under the totalitarian rule of his parasital capitalist class,

Where did I favor forcing anyone? Link?

Todd conveniently ignores the points I make and deflects with irrelevant, non-applicable arguments, that are completely out of context and disingenuous. All he can do is blow smoke.

He also thinks employment under capitalist totalitarian-run business enterprises is just a "choice", and not forced. He forgets that most people only have their labor power (their lives) to rent out to a capitalist master, not having the capital or resources to be self-employed or start their own little authoritarian-run "plantation". Most people are forced to work for capitalists under the specter of starving or becoming homeless (60% of America lives hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck). How is that a choice? Capitalism forces most people to sell themselves to capitalists and work under their totalitarian-run enterprises.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd conveniently ignores the points I make and deflects with irrelevant, non-applicable arguments, that are completely out of context and disingenuous. All he can do is blow smoke.

He also thinks employment under capitalist totalitarian-run business enterprises is just a "choice", and not forced. He forgets that most people only have their labor power (their lives) to rent out to a capitalist master, not having the capital or resources to be self-employed or start their own little authoritarian-run "plantation". Most people are forced to work for capitalists under the specter of starving or becoming homeless (60% of America lives hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck). How is that a choice? Capitalism forces most people to sell themselves to capitalists and work under their totalitarian-run enterprises.

I didn't ignore your humorous points.

Capitalism forces most people to sell themselves to capitalists and work under their totalitarian-run enterprises.

LOL!

See.