What Is Wrong With America ?

[dblack]

I said I would ORGANIZE, not control. Buy a dictionary.

Well, the policies you've been arguing for in the thread have mostly involved government mandates, so I was going with that. If you're simply referring to voluntary organization efforts, you have my apologies, and I wish you well. It's coercive state programs I'm opposed to.

What did I say that could be conceived of as "coercive" ? (noting that all come from the wishes of the American people)

Actually, offhand, I can only think of a few policies that are coercive and unsupported by the public, and I've disliked all of them >> PIP insurance, ACA (the coerciveness of it), and the military draft.

The very nature of government is coercive. That's what makes it different from all other institutions. Everything government does is backed by the force of law, and if you get in the way you go to jail. Or shot. There's no way around that fact, other than willful delusion.

 

[protectionist]

Excuse me again, Mr Dingle Berry, Sir:

The congresscritters know that a tax on the rich will simply be passed on to the lower classes. Or their wealth will be sent to New Zealand or any country which is not controlled by criminals.

I guess 3000 could probably be the approximate number of times I've shot both of those notions down. Sending wealth to other countries isn't done 1, 2, 3. Maybe you'd like to elaborate further, and then we could talk about how it 1) isn't economical to do and 2) legislation can be enacted to mitigate it.

As for "passed on to the lower classes". Yeah ? Elaborate please.

Eduardo Saverin, the billionaire co- founder of Facebook Inc. (FB), renounced his U.S. citizenship before an initial public offering that values the social network at as much as $96 billion, a move that may reduce his tax bill.

Over half of wealthy people who move to other countries to escape taxation, wind up moving back within 5 years. There's no place like home. Get away from it for a while and then you realize how much you value it.

Well, for all those who wish to emigrate to escape taxation, there's some countries out there with very low tax rates, where you can go, no doubt. Allow me to mention a few >> Syria, Saudi Arabia, Bolivia, Guatemala, Kazakstan. Bon voyage.

 

[dcraelin]

I guess 3000 could probably be the approximate number of times I've shot both of those notions down. Sending wealth to other countries isn't done 1, 2, 3. Maybe you'd like to elaborate further, and then we could talk about how it 1) isn't economical to do and 2) legislation can be enacted to mitigate it.

As for "passed on to the lower classes". Yeah ? Elaborate please.

Eduardo Saverin, the billionaire co- founder of Facebook Inc. (FB), renounced his U.S. citizenship before an initial public offering that values the social network at as much as $96 billion, a move that may reduce his tax bill.

Over half of wealthy people who move to other countries to escape taxation, wind up moving back within 5 years. There's no place like home. Get away from it for a while and then you realize how much you value it.

Well, for all those who wish to emigrate to escape taxation, there's some countries out there with very low tax rates, where you can go, no doubt. Allow me to mention a few >> Syria, Saudi Arabia, Bolivia, Guatemala, Kazakstan. Bon voyage.

HA, you got it exactly right............If they value this country so little ....get the hell out....we'd be better of without them

 

[protectionist]

Well, the policies you've been arguing for in the thread have mostly involved government mandates, so I was going with that. If you're simply referring to voluntary organization efforts, you have my apologies, and I wish you well. It's coercive state programs I'm opposed to.

What did I say that could be conceived of as "coercive" ? (noting that all come from the wishes of the American people)

Actually, offhand, I can only think of a few policies that are coercive and unsupported by the public, and I've disliked all of them >> PIP insurance, ACA (the coerciveness of it), and the military draft.

The very nature of government is coercive. That's what makes it different from all other institutions. Everything government does is backed by the force of law, and if you get in the way you go to jail. Or shot. There's no way around that fact, other than willful delusion.

FALSE! There are plenty of things government does that are not coercive. There once was a military draft. No longer. All military service is voluntary. The postal service is there for your usage IF you so choose. The police do not demand to come to your door. They arrive IF/whenever you call them, Same with the fire dept. Medicare is not mandatory. Your CHOICE to have it or not. Cities and counties provide many recreational facilities - ball fields, fishing piers, parks, etc. These are for your use IF you CHOOSE to use them. This is just a small sample. Like most things in life, government has its goods and its bads.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Please be brief. I will briefly state that there probably are 100 things (or more) wrong with America, but I will state just one for now >>

America is too much run by rich people. Members of Congress, the President and Vice-President, and members of the Supreme Court are generally all rich people. What do they know about middle class, lower middle class, and poor people's lives ? How can they make decisions about things they have no experience with, or have long forgotten from years past ? When have these people ever been unemployed, and out looking for a job, with a wide variety of things being used against them ? (credit reports, smear talk from former employers often untrue, etc). The last time I applied for a job I was told I would never get hired because employers require RECENT employment in that job occupation (within last 2 years). There's probably a long list of ways people can be denied a job, that shouldn't exist, and don't make sense.

you sound more like a disenchanted misanthrope than a serious political poster.

just sayin'

 

[dblack]

What did I say that could be conceived of as "coercive" ? (noting that all come from the wishes of the American people)

Actually, offhand, I can only think of a few policies that are coercive and unsupported by the public, and I've disliked all of them >> PIP insurance, ACA (the coerciveness of it), and the military draft.

The very nature of government is coercive. That's what makes it different from all other institutions. Everything government does is backed by the force of law, and if you get in the way you go to jail. Or shot. There's no way around that fact, other than willful delusion.

FALSE! There are plenty of things government does that are not coercive. There once was a military draft. No longer. All military service is voluntary. The postal service is there for your usage IF you so choose. The police do not demand to come to your door. They arrive IF/whenever you call them, Same with the fire dept. Medicare is not mandatory. Your CHOICE to have it or not. Cities and counties provide many recreational facilities - ball fields, fishing piers, parks, etc. These are for your use IF you CHOOSE to use them. This is just a small sample. Like most things in life, government has its goods and its bads.

All of these things are funded by taxation. The day taxes become voluntary, your points might make sense. But not until then.

 

[protectionist]

Please be brief. I will briefly state that there probably are 100 things (or more) wrong with America, but I will state just one for now >>

America is too much run by rich people. Members of Congress, the President and Vice-President, and members of the Supreme Court are generally all rich people. What do they know about middle class, lower middle class, and poor people's lives ? How can they make decisions about things they have no experience with, or have long forgotten from years past ? When have these people ever been unemployed, and out looking for a job, with a wide variety of things being used against them ? (credit reports, smear talk from former employers often untrue, etc). The last time I applied for a job I was told I would never get hired because employers require RECENT employment in that job occupation (within last 2 years). There's probably a long list of ways people can be denied a job, that shouldn't exist, and don't make sense.

you sound more like a disenchanted misanthrope than a serious political poster.

just sayin'

Rather than commenting on what I may "sound like", how about some feedback on what is not serious about my posts ? Why not ?

 

[protectionist]

The very nature of government is coercive. That's what makes it different from all other institutions. Everything government does is backed by the force of law, and if you get in the way you go to jail. Or shot. There's no way around that fact, other than willful delusion.

FALSE! There are plenty of things government does that are not coercive. There once was a military draft. No longer. All military service is voluntary. The postal service is there for your usage IF you so choose. The police do not demand to come to your door. They arrive IF/whenever you call them, Same with the fire dept. Medicare is not mandatory. Your CHOICE to have it or not. Cities and counties provide many recreational facilities - ball fields, fishing piers, parks, etc. These are for your use IF you CHOOSE to use them. This is just a small sample. Like most things in life, government has its goods and its bads.

All of these things are funded by taxation. The day taxes become voluntary, your points might make sense. But not until then.

What points are you saying don't make sense ?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Please be brief. I will briefly state that there probably are 100 things (or more) wrong with America, but I will state just one for now >>

America is too much run by rich people. Members of Congress, the President and Vice-President, and members of the Supreme Court are generally all rich people. What do they know about middle class, lower middle class, and poor people's lives ? How can they make decisions about things they have no experience with, or have long forgotten from years past ? When have these people ever been unemployed, and out looking for a job, with a wide variety of things being used against them ? (credit reports, smear talk from former employers often untrue, etc). The last time I applied for a job I was told I would never get hired because employers require RECENT employment in that job occupation (within last 2 years). There's probably a long list of ways people can be denied a job, that shouldn't exist, and don't make sense.

you sound more like a disenchanted misanthrope than a serious political poster.

just sayin'

Rather than commenting on what I may "sound like", how about some feedback on what is not serious about my posts ? Why not ?

Too bad folks like you don't attempt to change the system from within.

We vote them into office.

 

[dblack]

FALSE! There are plenty of things government does that are not coercive. There once was a military draft. No longer. All military service is voluntary. The postal service is there for your usage IF you so choose. The police do not demand to come to your door. They arrive IF/whenever you call them, Same with the fire dept. Medicare is not mandatory. Your CHOICE to have it or not. Cities and counties provide many recreational facilities - ball fields, fishing piers, parks, etc. These are for your use IF you CHOOSE to use them. This is just a small sample. Like most things in life, government has its goods and its bads.

All of these things are funded by taxation. The day taxes become voluntary, your points might make sense. But not until then.

What points are you saying don't make sense ?

Nevermind. You seem to be interpreting 'coercive' as 'bad' or something. My point is that all government activities are backed by involuntary, coercive, taxation. If you don't recognize that as fact, I'm not sure we have enough rational agreement to have a productive discussion.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I knew they shouldn't have legalized pot. And don't forget to call that designated driver. Pheeeeeww!!

How does increasing taxes (on the rich) become "taboo" when 3/4 of the American people support it ? You can answer tomorrow, when you're feeling better.

How could lynching a negro be wrong when 3/4 of the Klansmen in attendance support it?

Pretty fucking easily, actually....

Right and wrong are not determined by popular vote.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You wouldn't be stealing it any more than they stole it,

Jack opens a lemonaide stand. He sells 40 cups of lemonaide for $1 dollar each. You stick a gun in his face and take the $40.

According to Communist logic, you didn't steal it - because somehow he stole it by proving a product that people want....

to have it in the first place (in many cases, the taxation would be less of a steal) As for what they'll have the next year, when Clinton raised taxes on the rich, there was lots of money there to be taxed, after that (year after year) Is simple history eluding you ?

The problem with you Communists is that you actually are quite insane. I mean, don't get me wrong, you're evil - you seek to take by force the fruits of anothers' labor; but you're also insane, with the justifications you try to offer for your evil.

 

[Uncensored2008]

All of these things are funded by taxation. The day taxes become voluntary, your points might make sense. But not until then.

They are all coercive in addition to taxation.

The postal service is coercive by design. If you want to mail a first class letter, what are your choices? What, you have none?

Well, what if you decide you can provide far better service than the USPS for a fraction of the price? Sorry, you'll be thrown in prison if you try.

It is very coercive.

 

[RKMBrown]

Because you have to obey what it says in the bible, a book, or in the case of mormons... 2 books.

Nonsense.

Well, you don't have to, but then you wouldn't be a Christian if you didn't.

Even more nonsense.

 

[OKTexas]

No need to revise anything. I'm cool with my original. If you're not, that YOUR problem. Touched a raw nerve, eh ? Apparently you're part of that wealthiest 20% of US households. Well, you can just be glad you've got all that money, and take a good look at how you got it (because someday the man upstairs will be looking at it too)

PS - I don't live in govt housing, and I wouldn't pay property tax or own my own home again if you paid me. As a renter, I don't lower myself to fixing my own residence. I let the help do it, while I swim in one of my 2 pools, relax in my jacuzzi, play a couple of sets on my tennis court, go for a walk or bike through my nature trail, use my exercise room, or just have a drink in my extra large clubhouse, when I don't feel like shooting some baskets on my basketball court.

I haven't seen so many things claimed by a person that didn't own shit in I don't know how long. You pay porperty taxes, maintenance and insurance through your rent so don't play so damned ignorant. Hell from the way you've represented yourself in this thread I'm surprised they even let you outside any more, I damn sure hope you don't drive.

The one part you got right is where you said you "haven't seen". So you've never seen an apartment complex that has all these things, where people pay rent ? Lots of them around town. And no I don't pay property tax "through" anything. I just pay my rent at the going rate.
I do pay for renter's insurance, but seperately, not through my rent. Of the 3, that one you almost got right.

And the way I've represented myself in this thread, is the same way that 76% of the American people represented themselves in the recent Gallup poll, where they said they want tax raises on the rich. Eventually, politics gives way to the wishes of the people. As a conservative, I'd hate to see the Democrats gain power over both houses of Congress + the White House, because I despise their positions on Islamization, immigration, affiramative action, death penalty, et al, but it would get the tax system restored to a normal condition.

You're delusional if you think your rent doesn't cover your landlords overhead which includes property taxes, insurance, maintenance, payroll, payroll taxes and many more. And the amenities you have access to are no more yours than the $5.00 hooker you engage from time to time, just because you rent it doesn't mean it's yours.

I see you gave up on doing math, I think that is a good thing for you, you was looking very silly.

 

[HenryBHough]

It is true at most renters have no idea that a substantial part of their payment each month is paid out by the landlord in property taxes. But that's excusable since they likely have never owned a home; made a mortage payment (with tax escrow charges, the meaning of which they have no idea). These are the people who turn out to vote for more freebies from their cities and towns and feel no pain when property taxes go up. Lots of pain, though, when their rent does and/or when the landlord cuts back on maintenance due to the losses.

 

[dcraelin]

here is a great article outlining all the tax breaks and subsidies corporations get

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/14/top-ten-examples-of-welfare-for-the-rich/

also a link on yet another idiotic trade deal Washington crooks are trying to impose on America

The TPP and the Chamber of Secrets » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[Uncensored2008]

here is a great article outlining all the tax breaks and subsidies corporations get

Top Ten Examples of Welfare for the Rich » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

also a link on yet another idiotic trade deal Washington crooks are trying to impose on America

The TPP and the Chamber of Secrets » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Whackjob Communist is fucking moron..

ONE example;

{Six. Mortgage Deduction. The home mortgage deduction, which costs taxpayers $70 billion per year, is a huge subsidy to the real estate, }

So Comrade stupidfuck, NOT taxing homeowners costs who? Do you fuckwad commies contend that all wealth belongs to you? That NOT taking it from hardworking families "costs taxpayers?"

Fucking commies - evil piles of shit - every one.

 

[brfrad]

"NO, a "fair share" does NOT mean everyone pays the same % of taxes. That is exactly the way to be UNfair, and I suspect YOU KNOW IT. And it's not just the left who believe the rich should pay higher taxes. Many conservatives do too. A recent Gallup poll shows 76% of Americans support raising taxes on the rich. You think 76% of Americans are "left" ?"

So, what is a "fair share?" Everyone pays the same amount in taxes? Everyone pays the same percentage in taxes? I'm confused? Fair means everyone gets the EXACT same treatment. It doesn't mean that if you make more money you pay a higher percentage in taxes.

Who decides that you're suddenly "rich?" Is it $200,000; $500,000; $1,000,000? Why not just have everyone make $200,000, and then tax them at 100% over anything after. That would really help our deficit. Why do they need more money? They should be happy with everything they have.

We need to stop spending, and the main areas are welfare and entitlement programs. Welfare alone cost $421 BILLION last year. Medicare, $530 BILLION, and Social Security, $826 BILLION. Now, add all that up, that is $1.777 TRILLION in those payments alone. Wait until the ACA kicks into full affect, and we start bailing out these insurance companies.

Somebody posted government workers, and how much they went up under republican and democratic presidents. So, republicans are guilty of this, too. However, under Clinton, government jobs were reduced, and it was the only time we have actually had a surplus. Coincidence? Also, the country did not go into utter chaos during the shutdown, despite Obama's best efforts when 300,000 workers went on a vacation. You know, it might be time to send those on a permanent vacation. If we cut actual spending, not proposed spending by 10%, it would take us only 3 years to have a surplus. That would mean taking away only $177 billion from the entitlement programs, so we only spend $1.6 trillion. No one wants to do that because they don't want their own programs cut. Republicans wouldn't want to cut $90 billion in defense, and democrats don't want to cut $177 billion in their entitlement programs.

1. Never occured to you that raising taxes on the rich could provide this money ? Seems like a viable route, especially since it's supported by 76% of the population (according to a recent Gallup poll. About the same oppose cuts in Social Security, Medicare ,and Veteran benefits.

2. If you're going to steal MY posts (the 1st paragraph of "your" post), you could at least give credit, for the source (Post # 434 on page 29).

Since I'm new to the site, it wouldn't let me post a URL, sorry about that.

As for the raising taxes. Of course 76% of people agree. It's NOT their money. And, it depends on how the question was raised in opposing cuts. Did they form it would you oppose cuts to SS, Medicare, and Veteran Benefits? Because I would oppose cuts to Veteran benefits, but SS and medicare are going to be cut someday, through no choice of ours. We won't have any money to pay out these benefits. Why do we need to spend $421 billion in welfare? That's ridiculous. We have perfectly good charities, food banks, salvation armies, soup kitchens etc. that can help people who need help. Why not allow charities to start doing what they were intended to do? Help the needy. We have plenty of good people in this country willing to give their money and time to these charities.

 

[Avatar4321]

What did I say that could be conceived of as "coercive" ? (noting that all come from the wishes of the American people)

Actually, offhand, I can only think of a few policies that are coercive and unsupported by the public, and I've disliked all of them >> PIP insurance, ACA (the coerciveness of it), and the military draft.

The very nature of government is coercive. That's what makes it different from all other institutions. Everything government does is backed by the force of law, and if you get in the way you go to jail. Or shot. There's no way around that fact, other than willful delusion.

FALSE! There are plenty of things government does that are not coercive. There once was a military draft. No longer. All military service is voluntary. The postal service is there for your usage IF you so choose. The police do not demand to come to your door. They arrive IF/whenever you call them, Same with the fire dept. Medicare is not mandatory. Your CHOICE to have it or not. Cities and counties provide many recreational facilities - ball fields, fishing piers, parks, etc. These are for your use IF you CHOOSE to use them. This is just a small sample. Like most things in life, government has its goods and its bads.

Are you seriously arguing that the military is not coercive? The military is by definition an institution that uses force to accomplish it's goals.