What is your background/interest in the Middle East?

[Hossfly]

Lipush, P F Tinmore, et al,

You know, not a week goes by that Israelis is not in the news, complaining that someone is going to wipe them off the map.

I think someone has been pulling your leg.

I could say the same thing to you

(COMMENT)

For more than half a century, Israeli Foreign Policy has not help change the attitudes in the Middle East in its favor; with (very) minor exceptions. It should fire the entire crybaby staff in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and gag the leadership, and buy a Madison Avenue Public Relations firm to build a new image.

As far as Israeli Security goes, it has nothing to fear from any Middle East/Persian Gulf nation. Israel is, in its own right - a nuclear power operating outside the NPT and protected by a US umbrella. AIRPAC has bought and paid for Congress, and it routinely conducts espionage operations against America - so it knows the internal policies pertaining to its defense. Israel has the US Mediterranean Fleet on one side, and the Persian Gulf Fleet on the other. It has nearly an unlimited line of credit through the US, and AIRPAC as garnered it a sympathetic ear in nearly every corner in America. It is well protected, even if it has been incapable of resolving the aggravation of the Occupied Territories in more than four decades.

If Israel is not going to make a good faith effort to resolve its problems in the neighborhood, then it needs to sit back, take a breath, and keep its mouth shut.

Right or Wrong --- It is protected...

Most Respectfully,
R

Remember the USS Liberty!

Sour grapes go good with whine.

 

[Saigon]

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.

I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either.

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde said "exercised sovereign control", not "owned."

Hoss -

Please read the thread before commenting. Roudy said "owned" - it is that word which I think is so funny, because it is so obviously ridiculous.

Where are you coming from, twit? I read everything back to where you and Artevelde began jousting and I didn't see any quotes by Roudy. Do you expect people to read your simple mind?

No, I expect them to read the thread.

 

[Roudy]

History of Israel and "Palestine"

 

[Saigon]

Who, according to you, exercises sovereign control over the West Bank? The Martians?

The Palestinian Authority, though that sovereignty is to some extent limited by the lack of full statehood.

 

[Artevelde]

Who, according to you, exercises sovereign control over the West Bank? The Martians?

The Palestinian Authority, though that sovereignty is to some extent limited by the lack of full statehood.

You realize that this is complete fiction. Israel exercises sovereign control over the West Bank. The PA is in no way a sovereign state and doesn't exercise the functions of a sovereign state.

 

[Roudy]

There is no dispute over the ownership of Antarctica. Guantanamo Bay is leased from Cuba by the US. The Spitsbergen Treaty designates sovereignty.

What about Israel?

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. The Arabs for years have tried to twist the facts, hide evidence of Jewish history on the land. But that is destined to fail.

I have no question about the Jewish history in the land.

However, the Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

The Jews mixed with the Caananites that were the people there before they were. And they maintained a presence throughout the years, evidenced by Jewish majority in Jerusalem in the 1900's. The Arabs are who call themselves Palestinians as of 1964 are recent INVADORS from neighboring Arab states.

 

[Lipush]

There is no dispute over the ownership of Antarctica. Guantanamo Bay is leased from Cuba by the US. The Spitsbergen Treaty designates sovereignty.

What about Israel?

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. The Arabs for years have tried to twist the facts, hide evidence of Jewish history on the land. But that is destined to fail.

I have no question about the Jewish history in the land.

However, the Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

Yet the Jews where in the land before the Arabs. And the Jews developed this land much more then the Arabs. AND, no other nation put any especial claim on the land BESIDES the Jews or the Arabs.

 

[Roudy]

Lipush, P F Tinmore, et al,

You know, not a week goes by that Israelis is not in the news, complaining that someone is going to wipe them off the map.

I think someone has been pulling your leg.

I could say the same thing to you

(COMMENT)

For more than half a century, Israeli Foreign Policy has not help change the attitudes in the Middle East in its favor; with (very) minor exceptions. It should fire the entire crybaby staff in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and gag the leadership, and buy a Madison Avenue Public Relations firm to build a new image.

As far as Israeli Security goes, it has nothing to fear from any Middle East/Persian Gulf nation. Israel is, in its own right - a nuclear power operating outside the NPT and protected by a US umbrella. AIRPAC has bought and paid for Congress, and it routinely conducts espionage operations against America - so it knows the internal policies pertaining to its defense. Israel has the US Mediterranean Fleet on one side, and the Persian Gulf Fleet on the other. It has nearly an unlimited line of credit through the US, and AIRPAC as garnered it a sympathetic ear in nearly every corner in America. It is well protected, even if it has been incapable of resolving the aggravation of the Occupied Territories in more than four decades.

If Israel is not going to make a good faith effort to resolve its problems in the neighborhood, then it needs to sit back, take a breath, and keep its mouth shut.

Right or Wrong --- It is protected...

Most Respectfully,
R

Remember the USS Liberty!

Yeah, remember the Liberty but not 9-11, the marine barracks, the Cole bombing, Pan Am flight 103. Another obsessed Jew hater.

 

[Artevelde]

Actually, the history of what people inhabited which parts of the Holy Land is much more complex than it is made out to be here. Everybody seems to forget that before the age of modern nationalism (barely a hundred years old in the Middle East) most people were identified according to their religion, not according to their ethnic background.

 

[Roudy]

Even their flag is an invention and a fraud:

Jordanian flag

Palestinian flag

 

[Saigon]

Yet the Jews where in the land before the Arabs. And the Jews developed this land much more then the Arabs. AND, no other nation put any especial claim on the land BESIDES the Jews or the Arabs.

True, but the towns important to Arabs are not those important to Jews, and visa versa.

Hence, settlement is possible and should work.

Ramallah, Nablus, Gaza and Jericho are clearly Arab towns (although Jews have lived in Jericho for 2,700 years).

Tel Aviv, Haifa, Natanya and Tiberias are clearly Jewish towns.

The only real problem is Akko, and there I think right of return might see most Palestinians content to live there and not in what is now the West Bank.

 

[Artevelde]

Yet the Jews where in the land before the Arabs. And the Jews developed this land much more then the Arabs. AND, no other nation put any especial claim on the land BESIDES the Jews or the Arabs.

True, but the towns important to Arabs are not those important to Jews, and visa versa.

Hence, settlement is possible and should work.

Ramallah, Nablus, Gaza and Jericho are clearly Arab towns (although Jews have lived in Jericho for 2,700 years).

Tel Aviv, Haifa, Natanya and Tiberias are clearly Jewish towns.

The only real problem is Akko, and there I think right of return might see most Palestinians content to live there and not in what is now the West Bank.

So Jerusalem really isn't a problem according to you?

 

[Saigon]

Actually, the history of what people inhabited which parts of the Holy Land is much more complex than it is made out to be here. Everybody seems to forget that before the age of modern nationalism (barely a hundred years old in the Middle East) most people were identified according to their religion, not according to their ethnic background.

Yes, exactly! I totally agree.

I find all of this obsession with Canaanites, Phoenicians and Philistines entirely irrelevent, and almost never discussed by people who are actually involved in this debate.

It's largely a red herring, and what happened 3,000 years ago nowhere near as crucial to any final settlement as what has happened in the 20th century.

I think, quite innocently, a lot of posters have got totally sidetracked by what happened in 0 Ad, and are totally cluesless as to the absolotely crucial events which took place 1899 - 1901 and 1926 - 1934.

 

[Saigon]

Ramallah, Nablus, Gaza and Jericho are clearly Arab towns (although Jews have lived in Jericho for 2,700 years).

Tel Aviv, Haifa, Natanya and Tiberias are clearly Jewish towns.

The only real problem is Akko, and there I think right of return might see most Palestinians content to live there and not in what is now the West Bank.

So Jerusalem really isn't a problem according to you?

Unfortunately it is a problem!!

West Jersualem is clearly Jewish and East Jersualem clearly Palestinian, but the Old City I would prefer to see in the hands of the UN, and thus shared.

It's the only fair solution, though of course it is one both sides would dispute.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. The Arabs for years have tried to twist the facts, hide evidence of Jewish history on the land. But that is destined to fail.

I have no question about the Jewish history in the land.

However, the Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there. There is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

Yet the Jews where in the land before the Arabs. And the Jews developed this land much more then the Arabs. AND, no other nation put any especial claim on the land BESIDES the Jews or the Arabs.

One of the interesting things about the so called Arabs. They range from blond with blue eyes to very dark skin and kinky hair. How can they all be part of a single race?

 

[Saigon]

One of the interesting things about the so called Arabs. They range from blond with blue eyes to very dark skin and kinky hair. How can the all be part of a single race?

Bravo, Tinmore, you have really nailed a very, very key point!

I think some of our mor fascist-minded posters really struggle to tell the difference between race and nationality.

I notice many Stormfronters refer to Africa as if it were one country - and not 51 countries, each with their own languages, cultures and histories.

Likewise we see posters here referring to Islam and Arabs as a single mass - never realising there are a good 15 countries involved, each with their own languages, cultures and histories.

 

[Artevelde]

Ramallah, Nablus, Gaza and Jericho are clearly Arab towns (although Jews have lived in Jericho for 2,700 years).

Tel Aviv, Haifa, Natanya and Tiberias are clearly Jewish towns.

The only real problem is Akko, and there I think right of return might see most Palestinians content to live there and not in what is now the West Bank.

So Jerusalem really isn't a problem according to you?

Unfortunately it is a problem!!

West Jersualem is clearly Jewish and East Jersualem clearly Palestinian, but the Old City I would prefer to see in the hands of the UN, and thus shared.

It's the only fair solution, though of course it is one both sides would dispute.

Clearly that would not be a solution. The track record of the UN in this regard is uniformly abysmal.

 

[Artevelde]

One of the interesting things about the so called Arabs. They range from blond with blue eyes to very dark skin and kinky hair. How can the all be part of a single race?

Bravo, Tinmore, you have really nailed a very, very key point!

I think some of our mor fascist-minded posters really struggle to tell the difference between race and nationality.

I notice many Stormfronters refer to Africa as if it were one country - and not 51 countries, each with their own languages, cultures and histories.

Likewise we see posters here referring to Islam and Arabs as a single mass - never realising there are a good 15 countries involved, each with their own languages, cultures and histories.

It's really a sign of great stupidity and/or of a profoundly anti-historical mentality to throw around the word fascist as a simple insult.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Actually, the history of what people inhabited which parts of the Holy Land is much more complex than it is made out to be here. Everybody seems to forget that before the age of modern nationalism (barely a hundred years old in the Middle East) most people were identified according to their religion, not according to their ethnic background.

Yes, exactly! I totally agree.

I find all of this obsession with Canaanites, Phoenicians and Philistines entirely irrelevent, and almost never discussed by people who are actually involved in this debate.

It's largely a red herring, and what happened 3,000 years ago nowhere near as crucial to any final settlement as what has happened in the 20th century.

I think, quite innocently, a lot of posters have got totally sidetracked by what happened in 0 Ad, and are totally cluesless as to the absolotely crucial events which took place 1899 - 1901 and 1926 - 1934.

Sure, a lot of people have come and gone over time, However, there is a core population who had stayed and put down roots. They are the ones who built the cities, towns, and villages. They developed the agricultural land. They built the factories and shops.

These are the people who were the normal inhabitants within the borders that were defined in 1922. They are the ones who have the universally recognized right to self determination without foreign intervention.

That is the basis of my beliefs. How can anyone disagree with that?