What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[EdwardBaiamonte]

why does a reasonable person need a machine gun? its not exactly used for hunting or sport shooting now is it?

pretty sure the obvious right wing response will be, cause i want one and it is protected by the 2nd amendment. so why not give everyone guns, grenades, land mines, rocket launchers, tanks and nukes.

actually the obvious answer is that reasonable people would want machine guns so that liberal government is not the only party to have them!!


Alexander Hamilton: "...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
(Federalist Paper #29)



Adolf Hitler: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun
registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead."
(Chancelor's Speech, 1935)


Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

 

[Foxfyre]

still the employee rate is only 6.2%. not 15% like you claim. its a failed argument to say that the employer would give the employee a 6.2% raise just because he does not have to pay the employee portion of ss anymore

the medicare tax, is not part of ss. you need to differentiate your argument. are you talking about ss, medicare, medicaid, or all federal taxes?

if you are talking about ss, all employees would see is either a 4.2% or 6.2% increase in before tax earning. this money would be taxable as income though under income tax rules.

technically it will be a tax hike whenever it goes back to the 6.2% rate. the same way the republicans are saying that when the bus tax cuts expire there is going to be a tax hike on everyone. not sure what your point of the argument is here....

can you try all you want to prove that employees would get a 15% pay increase just because ss is gone, but that doesnt make it true

And that is what makes arguing with liberals soooooo frustrating. Rather than seeing the big picture over a lifetime of work as I presented it, you nitpick a temporary and artificial blip in the social security tax rate. Which makes it all that much more difficult to believe that you earn that six figure income you claim that you earn. Your perceptions are much more like those of a child who has never worked for wages in his/her life, or who does not understand the deductions from the wages shown on his/her pay stub. The rate was much much lower than now when I first started working and has increased incrementally over the years.

But evenso, I was referring to those now in their 20's who are just starting out on their careers. If I had invested the amount of the employee/employer contributions when I first started out, even at those much lower rates, I would have retired a millionaire. And much moreso would those starting out on their working career now. And the money would be ours to further invest or live on or spend to have fun or whatever we wanted to do, and any left over when we died could be passed on to our heirs. But when the government takes that money, regardless of who pays it, it is not available for anybody to invest in anything.

I doubt you will understand or accept that concept. But some reading along here will.

youre the one who cant keep a consistent argument. are you talking about SS or are you talking about Medicare, Medicaid and SS combined?

regardless the SS tax rate is 12.4% in which 6.2% is paid by the employee and 6.2% is paid by the employer.
if you want to add up all the taxes and talk about them, then just be consistent.
you claimed that SS taxes add up to 15%, they currently do not.
SS, Medicare and Medicaid equal 7.65% total for the employee and 7.65% for the employer.
that total is in fact 15.30%. so technically self employed individuals pay 15.3%, but it is suppose to be split into 7.65% for the individual and 7.65% by the company. but i dont expect you to understand any of this.

obviously ss needs to be reformed, but at least have a decent argument that stays consistent in what you are trying to prove.

SS and Medicare taxes are essentially one and the same when the feds are collecting payroll taxes. When self employed, we paid 15.3% of earnings (FICA and Medicare) on everything we earn via our business. When working for wages, we paid half and our employer paid half. Those taxes are currently temporarily reduced. There is no reason to believe they will remain at the discounted rate past this year, however.

Now you can use 2010 rates or current rates or rates when I first started earning wages way back when. Whatever rate you use, IF.....and IF you go back to my original post on this subject I did say IF.....that 15.3% or 10% or 6% or 4% was wisely invested in a private 401K rather than going to the government beginning in the worker's 20's, the person would enjoy a very affluent and comfortable retirement including covering a very nice private insurance policy.

The money that goes to the government to use on your behalf provides a bare subsistance retirement and steadily eroding healthcare benefits.

But, because you are a liberal, you cannot or will not focus on that aspect of it.

But obviously, most of the folks posting on this thread seem smart enough to understand. I will let them explain it to you from this point on.

 

[Syphon]

why does a reasonable person need a machine gun? its not exactly used for hunting or sport shooting now is it?

pretty sure the obvious right wing response will be, cause i want one and it is protected by the 2nd amendment. so why not give everyone guns, grenades, land mines, rocket launchers, tanks and nukes.

actually the obvious answer is that reasonable people would want machine guns so that liberal government is not the only party to have them!!


Alexander Hamilton: "...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
(Federalist Paper #29)



Adolf Hitler: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun
registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead."
(Chancelor's Speech, 1935)


Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

so you think the military is unsafe?

 

[Syphon]

And that is what makes arguing with liberals soooooo frustrating. Rather than seeing the big picture over a lifetime of work as I presented it, you nitpick a temporary and artificial blip in the social security tax rate. Which makes it all that much more difficult to believe that you earn that six figure income you claim that you earn. Your perceptions are much more like those of a child who has never worked for wages in his/her life, or who does not understand the deductions from the wages shown on his/her pay stub. The rate was much much lower than now when I first started working and has increased incrementally over the years.

But evenso, I was referring to those now in their 20's who are just starting out on their careers. If I had invested the amount of the employee/employer contributions when I first started out, even at those much lower rates, I would have retired a millionaire. And much moreso would those starting out on their working career now. And the money would be ours to further invest or live on or spend to have fun or whatever we wanted to do, and any left over when we died could be passed on to our heirs. But when the government takes that money, regardless of who pays it, it is not available for anybody to invest in anything.

I doubt you will understand or accept that concept. But some reading along here will.

youre the one who cant keep a consistent argument. are you talking about SS or are you talking about Medicare, Medicaid and SS combined?

regardless the SS tax rate is 12.4% in which 6.2% is paid by the employee and 6.2% is paid by the employer.
if you want to add up all the taxes and talk about them, then just be consistent.
you claimed that SS taxes add up to 15%, they currently do not.
SS, Medicare and Medicaid equal 7.65% total for the employee and 7.65% for the employer.
that total is in fact 15.30%. so technically self employed individuals pay 15.3%, but it is suppose to be split into 7.65% for the individual and 7.65% by the company. but i dont expect you to understand any of this.

obviously ss needs to be reformed, but at least have a decent argument that stays consistent in what you are trying to prove.

SS and Medicare taxes are essentially one and the same when the feds are collecting payroll taxes. When self employed, we paid 15.3% of earnings (FICA and Medicare) on everything we earn via our business. When working for wages, we paid half and our employer paid half. Those taxes are currently temporarily reduced. There is no reason to believe they will remain at the discounted rate past this year, however.

Now you can use 2010 rates or current rates or rates when I first started earning wages way back when. Whatever rate you use, IF.....and IF you go back to my original post on this subject I did say IF.....that 15.3% or 10% or 6% or 4% was wisely invested in a private 401K rather than going to the government beginning in the worker's 20's, the person would enjoy a very affluent and comfortable retirement including covering a very nice private insurance policy.

The money that goes to the government to use on your behalf provides a bare subsistance retirement and steadily eroding healthcare benefits.

But, because you are a liberal, you cannot or will not focus on that aspect of it.

But obviously, most of the folks posting on this thread seem smart enough to understand. I will let them explain it to you from this point on.

SS and Medicare are not essentially the "same". they are separate taxes for separate programs.
you can try to spin it any way you want, they are still not the "same". what does happen though is that the rates are combined to 1 number so that calculating taxes is easier.

again, for the slow people such as yourself......... for self employed people, the rate has to be the same as for regular employees & businesses. the business pays half and the employee pays half. just because you can not differentiate between the 2, doesnt mean that it doesnt occur.

self employed also enjoy tax breaks that regular employees do not..... so thanks for not taking any of that into account.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

IF.....that 15.3% or 10% or 6% or 4% was wisely invested in a private 401K


.

yes this is so true, the liberals in effect steal 15% of everyone's income which if invested privately would render each of us millionaires at retirement

 

[Syphon]

IF.....that 15.3% or 10% or 6% or 4% was wisely invested in a private 401K


.

yes this is so true, the liberals in effect steal 15% of everyone's income which if invested privately would render each of us millionaires at retirement

youre a retard if you think paying taxes is "stealing"

actually the average person making $45k, putting 15% of their income away for 30 years, assuming 5% rate of return would have $470,000 after 30 years. if that rate averages 7% over 30 years, its only $690,000. not exactly anywhere near $1M

http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm

 

[The T]

IF.....that 15.3% or 10% or 6% or 4% was wisely invested in a private 401K


.

yes this is so true, the liberals in effect steal 15% of everyone's income which if invested privately would render each of us millionaires at retirement

youre a retard if you think paying taxes is "stealing"

At the point of a gun as those taxes paid are given to some brood mare sitting on her ass squirting out babies and being payed for it?

God-Damned right it's legalized theft.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

youre a retard if you think paying taxes is "stealing"

then why do they collect taxes with liberal guns??

 

[Syphon]

youre a retard if you think paying taxes is "stealing"

then why do they collect taxes with liberal guns??

ive never had a person with a gun come to my house to collect taxes....
you must be smoking some really good stuff.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

actually the average person making $45k, putting 15% of their income away for 30 years,

actually, dear, 20 - 67 is 47 years. would that make a difference?????

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

youre a retard if you think paying taxes is "stealing"

then why do they collect taxes with liberal guns??

ive never had a person with a gun come to my house to collect taxes....
you must be smoking some really good stuff.

try not paying and you go to jail!! You earn money in peaceful voluntary relationships under capitalism, then liberals use guns to get theirs

 

[Syphon]

actually the average person making $45k, putting 15% of their income away for 30 years,

actually, dear, 20 - 67 is 47 years. would that make a difference?????

the average 20 year old doesn't make $45k. 30 years is the average working life of most americans.

although many lower paid americans work longer. you are also taking the assumption that the average 20 year old can save 15% of their income, which is a fallacy.

what realistic numbers would you like to use exactly?

 

[Syphon]

then why do they collect taxes with liberal guns??

ive never had a person with a gun come to my house to collect taxes....
you must be smoking some really good stuff.

try not paying and you go to jail!! You earn money in peaceful voluntary relationships under capitalism, then liberals use guns to get theirs

if you break the law you go to jail. is this some sort of new thing for you?

try not obeying driving law, youll go to jail, try stealing something, youll go to jail.

if you dont wanna pay taxes dont. leave the country, go someplace else, no one if forcing you to live here.

oh and btw, conservative vote for and levy taxes as well.......... ahhhhhhh CONSERVATIVE ARE STEALING MY MONEY AT GUN POINT NOW!!!!!!!!

 

[UpAndAbout]

it would be close to 15%, average Americans could retire with $1-2 million estate, and $5-10k per month rather than the dog food money they get now if they live long enough to collect a penny.


Republican capitalism made us rich, then the liberals stole all the money!!

When all is said and done, they could easily recover what is put aside for them by their employer.



Our resident dumbass just needs to hold the party line in spite of the fact that his side lost any credibiltiy a long long time ago.

HOPE we get another CHANGE this November.

Yes, competition would force employers to lower prices or pay higher wages if Social Security were defeated. Probably government would mandate employer contributions, at first anyway, to private accounts during the transition to be sure retirement accounts were funded.

I heard the VP say on TV that SS is not in bad shape! How can that be when the government is $16 trillion in debt, the trust fund was stolen, and 10,000 people retire each day? Only a liberal could say that with a straight face.

Our neighbors are liberal as heck. the wife is 52, she just got on SSI for fibromyalgia!! She just can't work. Yet I see her out mowing the yard, playing with the dog, doing all kinds of stuff. When she came over and cooed that to my husband I had to go into the house to keep from slapping her. Yet people who realy ARE disabled have to jump through hoops to get any help.

 

[Syphon]

When all is said and done, they could easily recover what is put aside for them by their employer.



Our resident dumbass just needs to hold the party line in spite of the fact that his side lost any credibiltiy a long long time ago.

HOPE we get another CHANGE this November.

Yes, competition would force employers to lower prices or pay higher wages if Social Security were defeated. Probably government would mandate employer contributions, at first anyway, to private accounts during the transition to be sure retirement accounts were funded.

I heard the VP say on TV that SS is not in bad shape! How can that be when the government is $16 trillion in debt, the trust fund was stolen, and 10,000 people retire each day? Only a liberal could say that with a straight face.

Our neighbors are liberal as heck. the wife is 52, she just got on SSI for fibromyalgia!! She just can't work. Yet I see her out mowing the yard, playing with the dog, doing all kinds of stuff. When she came over and cooed that to my husband I had to go into the house to keep from slapping her. Yet people who realy ARE disabled have to jump through hoops to get any help.

why havent you reported her? fraud is still fraud. i know plenty of conservatives who are on welfare and food stamps... whats your point?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

the average 20 year old doesn't make $45k.

an neither does the average 67 year old

30 years is the average working life of most americans.

maybe for women with kids but then they have families to support them part of the time

although many lower paid americans work longer. you are also taking the assumption that the average 20 year old can save 15% of their income, which is a fallacy.

its the law now dear!!

what realistic numbers would you like to use exactly?

my numbers are fine. Income would skyrocket with such huge savings instead of liberals taking and wasting 15% of all income on one shot welfare payments. In Econ 101 S=I( Savings =investment) Figure average income of $75k

 

[Mac1958]

.

Indeed, it's annoying to know that some of my tax dollars are wasted on the bloat, sloth and corruption that are rampant in the federal bureaucracy. Knowing that many are soaking the system doesn't help. What I'd like to see is a serious effort to make the federal bureaucracy far, FAR more efficient. Alas, precious little is being done there, or so it seems.

That said, it's a decent bet that MORE of my tax dollars are being spent invading and blowing the living shit out of other sovereign countries; slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians; leaving thousands of innocent American children without their Dad forever; filling hospitals with brave American soldiers who have lost body parts and whole minds; destroying families for nothing more than temporary (if THAT) victories.

This whining about the billions wasted on welfare cheats (and our "terrible" 35% top marginal tax rate, holy crap) rings a little hollow when it's those same whiners who are oh so willing to play armchair general and send our kids off to the horrors of war at a cost in the freakin' TRILLIONS.

What a load of CRAP.

.

 

[UpAndAbout]

Yes, competition would force employers to lower prices or pay higher wages if Social Security were defeated. Probably government would mandate employer contributions, at first anyway, to private accounts during the transition to be sure retirement accounts were funded.

I heard the VP say on TV that SS is not in bad shape! How can that be when the government is $16 trillion in debt, the trust fund was stolen, and 10,000 people retire each day? Only a liberal could say that with a straight face.

Our neighbors are liberal as heck. the wife is 52, she just got on SSI for fibromyalgia!! She just can't work. Yet I see her out mowing the yard, playing with the dog, doing all kinds of stuff. When she came over and cooed that to my husband I had to go into the house to keep from slapping her. Yet people who realy ARE disabled have to jump through hoops to get any help.

why havent you reported her? fraud is still fraud. i know plenty of conservatives who are on welfare and food stamps... whats your point?

That IS my point. It still doesn't make it right. Whatever. There is no talking with you people is there. Talking to a liberal is like talking to somebody high on LSD.

 

[Syphon]

the average 20 year old doesn't make $45k.

an neither does the average 67 year old

30 years is the average working life of most americans.

maybe for women with kids but then they have families to support them part of the time

although many lower paid americans work longer. you are also taking the assumption that the average 20 year old can save 15% of their income, which is a fallacy.

its the law now dear!!

what realistic numbers would you like to use exactly?

my numbers are fine. Income would skyrocket with such huge savings instead of liberals taking and wasting 15% of all income on one shot welfare payments. In Econ 101 S=I( Savings =investment) Figure average income of $75k

the average household income in the US is not $75k, its around $45k. thanks for showing your failure dumbass.

saving 15% of your income with or without SS deductions wont happen for a 20 year old. yet another failed argument dumbass. hence why SS was put in place, it was meant to be a social safety net, not a stand alone retirement programs.

ohhh so now SS is "welfare" well, thanks again for showing just how much of a dumbass you really are.

 

[Vidi]

why does a reasonable person need a machine gun? its not exactly used for hunting or sport shooting now is it?

pretty sure the obvious right wing response will be, cause i want one and it is protected by the 2nd amendment. so why not give everyone guns, grenades, land mines, rocket launchers, tanks and nukes.

actually the obvious answer is that reasonable people would want machine guns so that liberal government is not the only party to have them!!


Alexander Hamilton: "...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
(Federalist Paper #29)



Adolf Hitler: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun
registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead."
(Chancelor's Speech, 1935)


Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

Lets be honest shall we...

You couldnt afford the weapons you would need to hold off the government if they really wanted to take you out.

The 2nd amendment was made obsolete long ago.

Unless you have a defense against the drones which can drop a Hellfire in your lap, then the whole argument is just stupid.