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Answer me this, Joe...
Was the working man better off BEFORE Capitalism or after?
People thought Communism sounded great before they saw it in practice! (It's kind of like a Barack Obama Presidency.)
Depends which working man you were talking about.
Capitalism certainly made life for the slaves in the South a hell of a lot worse. It went from something that was slowly being phased out to something that was quite brutal. People who worked in coal mines, children who were working around industrial machines, their lives were made a lot worse so the Carnegies and other Robber Barons could live large.
Sorry, man, Capitalism is a shit sandwich for most people. The reason why it's less of one is because of Democracy and unionization and technical advancement. Left to their own devices, Capitalists will pretty much kill off hte planet for another Dressage Horsie.
Or as Herbert Hoover once opined "The Problem with Capitalism is Capitalists. They're too damned Greedy."
We got a big old reminder of that in 2008.
Also, to Oldstyle, Capitalism in the United States was fueled by "King Cotton", an industry that relied on Slavery for its expansion.
You're bound and determined I'm some southern redneck racist, aren't you, Joe? Sorry to disappoint but my great grandfather was an officer with the 54th Massachusetts Infantry. He lost an arm in the battle for Fort Wagner in South Carolina.
As for Capitalism in the US being fueled by cotton? Without question cotton played a major role in the US economy and did indeed fuel Capitalism but then again Capitalism in the US was also fueled by the textile and whaling industries in New England as well as an abundance of some of the best farming land in the world. More than anything else, Capitalism was fueled by the dawn of the Industrial age. Cotton was a holdover from Agrarian times. It was the creation of things like power looms and cotton gins that fueled Capitalism as much if not more than the use of slavery to pick cotton.
Guy, you don't get credit for what ancestors did.
Cotton was not a holdover from agrarian times. Cotton was the fuel of the capitalist industrial machine, which is why the North was happy to tolerate slavery for as long as it did and they pitched such a bitch when the South decided to secede and maybe sell that Cotton to the British. And when the Rednecks put Jim Crow into place, everyone was just peachy with it.
Sorry, man, Capitalism has been a force for evil. The only reason why it is less evil is because we have laws keeping them from behaving badly. Unless we are stupid enough to put Republicans in office, and those laws don't get enforced.
Once again, see "Crash of 2008". Oh, no, wait. That was poor people buying houses.
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It was a perfect combination of stupid and offensive, Joe! You keep trotting it out there, even if each time you do, you come across as "crazy Uncle Joe"...you know the guy that has too much to drink at holiday dinners and says things he shouldn't until Aunt Sally has had enough and hauls his drunk ass home?
No, it's offensive to you because you are an apologist for Greed. It's not offensive to the guy who got let go because after six years of loyal service and hard work, he was cut because he had the bad luck to bust up his knee.
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Joe...you are SO clueless about economic history it's amusing to watch you spout off with this nonsense!
The truth is that with the advent of capitalism, working people's lot in life improved so drastically it's not even funny and that was LONG before the advent of unions and had little to do with governments. I don't think you have any concept of how miserable an existence it was for laborers back in feudal times. Capitalism changed EVERYTHING...but you can't see that because of your rabid hatred of your ex-bosses who you think screwed you over!
Again, guy, I got a degree in history. Yes, it was probably pretty miserable to work on a medieval farm. It was equally miserable to work in early factories. Children in Coal mines, people who lost fingers in industrial accidents. And the Capitalists were too busy counting their money to make things any better.
Yes, Capitalism changed everything. Just not for the better. We will be very lucky if it doesn't cause the extinction of the whole planet.
Come on Joe...if you're going to pretend to have a degree in history at least TRY and know something about the subject! Working in early factories was infinitely better than working on medieval farms...which is why a mass migration of workers took place from the country into cities to work in factories. That didn't take place because early factory jobs were as bad as farm jobs...it took place because people got paid more for those factory jobs and had a better quality of life.
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Capitalism brought more people out of abject, grinding, degrading poverty then anything else that's ever happened on this planet! You wouldn't have HAD unionization and technical advancements without it. The United States certainly wouldn't have become the great nation it used to be without it. Your "take" on history is laughable, Joe!
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It's offensive because it's a disgusting analogy that I can only guess you thought would be "shocking". Rape and strap-ons, Joe? Really?
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I don't get "credit" for what my ancestors did...but you're only to happy to blame Southerners for what THEIR ancestors did? Your history professors must have gotten such a chuckle out of you, Joe...I know I do!
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It's offensive because it's a disgusting analogy that I can only guess you thought would be "shocking". Rape and strap-ons, Joe? Really?
Naw, man, I think it shows the kind of "blame the victim" mentality that permeates "conservative" thought.
She got raped? Well,t hat's what she gets for wearing a short dress.
Your job got moved to China? That's what you get for demanding decent wages.
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I don't get "credit" for what my ancestors did...but you're only to happy to blame Southerners for what THEIR ancestors did? Your history professors must have gotten such a chuckle out of you, Joe...I know I do!
No, I blame Southerners for not looking back at that bit of history with profound shame. All the bubbas out there with their Confederate flags like that's something to be proud of.
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I don't get "credit" for what my ancestors did...but you're only to happy to blame Southerners for what THEIR ancestors did? Your history professors must have gotten such a chuckle out of you, Joe...I know I do!
No, I blame Southerners for not looking back at that bit of history with profound shame. All the bubbas out there with their Confederate flags like that's something to be proud of.
You should try reading a book once in awhile Joe, many Northerners who fought for the Union OWNED slaves until AFTER the Civil War.
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I don't get "credit" for what my ancestors did...but you're only to happy to blame Southerners for what THEIR ancestors did? Your history professors must have gotten such a chuckle out of you, Joe...I know I do!
No, I blame Southerners for not looking back at that bit of history with profound shame. All the bubbas out there with their Confederate flags like that's something to be proud of.
You should try reading a book once in awhile Joe, many Northerners who fought for the Union OWNED slaves until AFTER the Civil War.
Yeah, so?
Southerners were the ones who were willing to break up the country to keep their slaves, and then spent the next 150 years pretending that was something they should be proud of.
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Northerners were all too willing to allow slavery to keep the country together. And now pretends that that part of history never happened.
Face it, neither side cares about the negro, the south is just more honest about it.
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Northerners were all too willing to allow slavery to keep the country together. And now pretends that that part of history never happened.
Face it, neither side cares about the negro, the south is just more honest about it.
If you went back to my previous posts, I was quite clear that CAPITALISTS in the North were just peachy fine with slavery in the south, despite OldStyle's belief about the sanctifying power of unbridled greed.
But you know, there really was a point where you look back at slavery and call it a horrible wrong and if you had someone in your family tree who fought to maintain it, you cross their name out of the family bible.
You know, not like.. uh, this...
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Well, I actually would argue that blacks were better off as slaves , and certainly there is no argument that society was better off when they were slaves...
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Well, I actually would argue that blacks were better off as slaves , and certainly there is no argument that society was better off when they were slaves...
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I think we should have a rule that when someone says that, we should actually have them forced to live like a 1850 slave did for a month, including rapes and whippings.
I'm sorry, man, I was really, really trying to take you seriously, but I can't after this.
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Dude, VERY few slaves were actually whipped. I mean you know that. Does a farmer go around abusing his horse?
And I'm white, so I wouldn't be a slave by 1850 standards
And once again, you understand that I'm not advocating returning to slavery don't you? I'm simply saying blacks are worse off now than they were then. Do you argue that point?
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Dude, VERY few slaves were actually whipped. I mean you know that. Does a farmer go around abusing his horse?
And I'm white, so I wouldn't be a slave by 1850 standards
And once again, you understand that I'm not advocating returning to slavery don't you? I'm simply saying blacks are worse off now than they were then. Do you argue that point?
Uh, no, whippings were common. And often done for no other reason to satisfy bloodlust.
And, yes, I would argue the hell out of the stupid, mindless racist assertation that blacks are worse off today.
Seriously, guy, why don't you check in at Stormfront.
Hey, Oldstyle, I'm waiting for you to refute this guy. Prove me wrong.
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No they weren't "common" numerous historical texts tell us that. Doesn't make the ones that did happen any less bad though.
Blacks actually fared worse under Reconstruction than the did under slavery.
I'm not a racist sir, I simply argue from a historical stand point here.
How many blacks are in prison, dead, or on welfare right now? Far more than were ever enslaved.
See, they've enslaved themselves. Far worse than any institution of slavery ever did.
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No they weren't "common" numerous historical texts tell us that. Doesn't make the ones that did happen any less bad though.
Blacks actually fared worse under Reconstruction than the did under slavery.
I'm not a racist sir, I simply argue from a historical stand point here.
How many blacks are in prison, dead, or on welfare right now? Far more than were ever enslaved.
See, they've enslaved themselves. Far worse than any institution of slavery ever did.
Your argument was not that Reconstruction was worse than slavery. (which it probably wasn't.)
Your argument (back in Post #213- ahhh, memories) was that they are worse off NOW (you know, in 2014 when a black man is president) and society would be better off if they WERE still slaves.
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Your argument (back in Post #213- ahhh, memories) was that they are worse off NOW (you know, in 2014 when a black man is president) and society would be better off if they WERE still slaves.
I maintain that BOTH are true.
