What the Bible says on when life as a person begins

[emilynghiem]

Hi [MENTION=48060]guno[/MENTION]
may i strongly suggest not taking parts of the bible out of context
and interpreting them in different contexts; even the bible itself warns people not to do that.

1. Exodus 21:22–25 states that a fetus isn't a person.

2. Numbers 5:12-28 commands women guilty of adultery to abort their pregnancies

The Bible says that a person becomes a living soul when he BREATHES the BREATH of life into his nostril (fetuses don't breathe):
3. Genesis 2:7

1. The Misuse of Exodus 21:22-25 by Pro-Choice Advocates | Desiring God
Misuse of Exodus. This website clarifies that references to "if the baby goes forth"
are interpreted differently so this changes the references to harm being done.

2. The Bible Endorses Abortion
this website explains that bitter water is misinterpreted to mean an abortifacient herbal
drink; when the ink in the water was some kind of ritual to determine adultery

3. as for God breathing life into man, this is a full grown man so it is symbolic of
humanity, and God breathing life into us in the beginning stages when mankind first became aware and had a relationship with knowledge of life that grew from there.

this is not literal.

decide if you want spiritual/figurative meaning in the Bible and use it for that

if you want literal you are looking in the wrong place

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear [MENTION=46449]Delta4Embassy[/MENTION]
this OT history depicts what happens when mankind has a relationship with God
by Retributive Justice. the point is to AVOID this not to repeat it.

the NT is about maturing to Restorative Justice where there is new life and peace
the point is to move TOWARD life and AWAY from ways that lead to death.

In order to teach the Difference, we have both the OT and the NT.
We don't teach about WW and the Holocaust to glorify and Repeat those horrors;
we learn and teach from history to avoid going down those same paths.

Please do not use human history to go teach and spread more ill will that foments war.

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

[Beginning of this one mentions 'perishing' while still in the womb. You can't perish if you're not already alive ergo, in the womb there are babies.]

[But overall, God doesn't care if you're a child. If you parents are guilty of something that God decides to kill them, he'll kill their children too in or out of the womb.]

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

 

[emilynghiem]

Exodus 21:22–25 states that a fetus isn't a person.

Numbers 5:12-28 commands women guilty of adultery to abort their pregnancies

The Bible says that a person becomes a living soul when he BREATHES the BREATH of life into his nostril (fetuses don't breathe): Genesis 2:7

Tell that to the militant anti choicers.

No [MENTION=38085]Noomi[/MENTION]
what works with prolife advocates is defending religious freedom by the first amendment.
however, if the liberals are as "antichoice" about health care mandates,
it's kind of hard to make that argument now, about "freedom of choice," when it's being contradicted by health care policies forced onto people and businesses by govt.

how can you argue against anti choicers when the left supports
"penalizing and restricting" free choice in ALL health care options?

who are the anti choicers now?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Exodus 21:22–25 states that a fetus isn't a person.

Numbers 5:12-28 commands women guilty of adultery to abort their pregnancies

The Bible says that a person becomes a living soul when he BREATHES the BREATH of life into his nostril (fetuses don't breathe): Genesis 2:7

Tell that to the militant anti choicers.

No [MENTION=38085]Noomi[/MENTION]
what works with prolife advocates is defending religious freedom by the first amendment.
however, if the liberals are as "antichoice" about health care mandates,
it's kind of hard to make that argument now, about "freedom of choice," when it's being contradicted by health care policies forced onto people and businesses by govt.

how can you argue against anti choicers when the left supports
"penalizing and restricting" free choice in ALL health care options?

who are the anti choicers now?

The right to privacy in the context of substantive due process compels the state to respect the fundamental right of the individual with regard to personal matters:

“If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the*individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.” (Eisenstadt v. Baird (1972)).

Those seeking to deny a woman her right to privacy by compelling her to give birth to a child she does not wish to have violates this basic individual right, as the state lacks the authority to indeed compel her to do so.

The ACA, on the other hand, doesn't compel anyone to do anything. Citizens are at liberty to not by health insurance if they so desire, and they are at liberty to not pay fees, penalties, or taxes absent punitive measures by the state. Indeed, the ACA is devoid of any provisions sanctioning criminal prosecution, unlike state laws outlawing abortion.

And unlike measures that seek to deny a woman her right to privacy by making abortion illegal, the ACA has been held as Constitutional by the Supreme Court:

Congress’s use of the Taxing Clause to encourage buying something is, by contrast, not new. Tax incentives already promote, for example, purchasing homes and professional educations. See 26 U.*S.*C. §§163(h), 25A. Sustaining the mandate as a tax depends only on whether Congress has properly exercised its taxing power to encourage purchasing health insurance, not whether it can. Upholding the individual mandate under the Taxing Clause thus does not recognize any new federal power. It determines that Congress has used an existing one.

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF INDEPENDENT BUSINESS v. SEBELIUS, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, | LII / Legal Information Institute

Consequently, liberals are consistent in their advocating for the privacy rights of women, where individuals should be free from government intrusion into personal matters, and the ACA which in no way authorizes government intrusion into personal matters.

 

[S.J.]

Tell that to the militant anti choicers.

No [MENTION=38085]Noomi[/MENTION]
what works with prolife advocates is defending religious freedom by the first amendment.
however, if the liberals are as "antichoice" about health care mandates,
it's kind of hard to make that argument now, about "freedom of choice," when it's being contradicted by health care policies forced onto people and businesses by govt.

how can you argue against anti choicers when the left supports
"penalizing and restricting" free choice in ALL health care options?

who are the anti choicers now?

The right to privacy in the context of substantive due process compels the state to respect the fundamental right of the individual with regard to personal matters:

“If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the*individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.” (Eisenstadt v. Baird (1972)).

Those seeking to deny a woman her right to privacy by compelling her to give birth to a child she does not wish to have violates this basic individual right, as the state lacks the authority to indeed compel her to do so.

The ACA, on the other hand, doesn't compel anyone to do anything. Citizens are at liberty to not by health insurance if they so desire, and they are at liberty to not pay fees, penalties, or taxes absent punitive measures by the state. Indeed, the ACA is devoid of any provisions sanctioning criminal prosecution, unlike state laws outlawing abortion.

And unlike measures that seek to deny a woman her right to privacy by making abortion illegal, the ACA has been held as Constitutional by the Supreme Court:

Congress’s use of the Taxing Clause to encourage buying something is, by contrast, not new. Tax incentives already promote, for example, purchasing homes and professional educations. See 26 U.*S.*C. §§163(h), 25A. Sustaining the mandate as a tax depends only on whether Congress has properly exercised its taxing power to encourage purchasing health insurance, not whether it can. Upholding the individual mandate under the Taxing Clause thus does not recognize any new federal power. It determines that Congress has used an existing one.

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF INDEPENDENT BUSINESS v. SEBELIUS, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, | LII / Legal Information Institute

Consequently, liberals are consistent in their advocating for the privacy rights of women, where individuals should be free from government intrusion into personal matters, and the ACA which in no way authorizes government intrusion into personal matters.

What planet are YOU living on???

 

[Stephanie]

Having given birth to two children

I don't think I need some person that calls themselves, guano quoting the bible to tell me when life begins

some nerve

 

[jillian]

Exodus 21:22–25 states that a fetus isn't a person.


Numbers 5:12-28 commands women guilty of adultery to abort their pregnancies



The Bible says that a person becomes a living soul when he BREATHES the BREATH of life into his nostril (fetuses don't breathe): Genesis 2:7

^^^^^

that

my problem isn't that the religious right has a different idea. my problem is they think they should legislate their beliefs.

like the theocrats do with every thought that passes through their minds.

 

[jillian]

Having given birth to two children

I don't think I need some person that calls themselves, guano quoting the bible to tell me when life begins

some nerve

he doesn't call himself "guano".

i've had one child. he was very wanted.

i just think we don't make such intimate decisions for others.

i know that simple concept is difficult for the radical right

 

[PostmodernProph]

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Single cell organisms are in fact alive.

As are the unborn, from the moment of conception. Abortion means to kill.

The Bible does not agree.

really?.....is there some part of it you could quote to support that idiotic statement?.......(don't get a hernia trying, we already know there isn't).....

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The US does not allow sharia law - eg - laws based on religious beliefs. That fact makes this discussion moot.

However, the First Amendment gives you the freedom to believe whatever you wish. So if your religion forbids abortion, don't have one.

Finally, the law says abortion is legal so, MYOB.

 

[koshergrl]

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Single cell organisms are in fact alive.

As are the unborn, from the moment of conception. Abortion means to kill.

The Bible does not agree.

The bible says single cell organisms aren't alive?

How odd that I managed to miss that. Where does it say that?

 

[koshergrl]

The US does not allow sharia law - eg - laws based on religious beliefs. That fact makes this discussion moot.

However, the First Amendment gives you the freedom to believe whatever you wish. So if your religion forbids abortion, don't have one.

Finally, the law says abortion is legal so, MYOB.

Er..Sharia Law is NOT "laws based upon religious beliefs".
"
The custom-based body of law based on the Koran and the religion of Islam [see, also, the Muslim Law Dictionary].
The sacred law of Islam; Islamic law and also referred to as Muslim law.
Because, by definition, Muslim states are theocracies, religious texts are law, the latter distinguished by Islam and Muslims in their application, as Sharia or Sharia law.
So thorough is the integration of the justice system and Church under Sharia law that Sharia courts are essentially religious courts; judges are usually local church (Mosque) officials."

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/ShariaLaw.aspx

"Full Definition of SHARIA
: Islamic law based on the Koran "
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sharia

For the record...luds is an illiterate idiot.

But I know everybody here already knows that.

Also, check out my siggy, if you doubt his motives.

 

[guno]

Single cell organisms are in fact alive.

As are the unborn, from the moment of conception. Abortion means to kill.

The Bible does not agree.

The bible says single cell organisms aren't alive?

How odd that I managed to miss that. Where does it say that?

Bottom Line the Torah /the Herbew Bible was given to the Jews NOT the goyim so any reference to the book by the Goyim is a waste of time, like feeding Filet mignon to a dog

The very words of the ten commandments clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

God never brought goyim ancestors out of Egypt! Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."


The Lord has not given the goyim the promised land of Canaan! Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you"

Since the Sabbath is a sign between God and fleshly Israel, there is nothing requiring goyim to keep it! (Ex. 31:13,17; Ezek. 20:12, 20)


If it was intended for all mankind, then why specifically say "strangers within your gates". Obviously the Goyim (strangers) were never required at any point in earth history to keep the Sabbath.

 

[koshergrl]

Shut up, weirdo. Nothing you say makes any sense, quit boring us with your spew.

 

[S.J.]

Having given birth to two children

I don't think I need some person that calls themselves, guano quoting the bible to tell me when life begins

some nerve

he doesn't call himself "guano".

i've had one child. he was very wanted.

i just think we don't make such intimate decisions for others.

i know that simple concept is difficult for the radical right

It's not about the "decision", it's about the act, the act of murder. You're not allowed to murder your mother and your mother should not be allowed to murder you.

 

[Indeependent]

Shut up, weirdo. Nothing you say makes any sense, quit boring us with your spew.

On this point, Guno is quote correct.
Everyone should appreciate the Torah as non-Jews don't go to some Dante's Hell at the end.

 

[PostmodernProph]

The US does not allow sharia law - eg - laws based on religious beliefs. That fact makes this discussion moot.

However, the First Amendment gives you the freedom to believe whatever you wish. So if your religion forbids abortion, don't have one.

Finally, the law says abortion is legal so, MYOB.

do you think only people with religion feel its wrong to kill unborn children?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

The Lord has not given the goyim the promised land of Canaan!

I don't think anyone here asked for Canaan.....

 

[Indeependent]

The Lord has not given the goyim the promised land of Canaan!

I don't think anyone here asked for Canaan.....

You obviously don't spend any time on the Israel Palestine forum.

 

[PostmodernProph]

The Lord has not given the goyim the promised land of Canaan!

I don't think anyone here asked for Canaan.....

You obviously don't spend any time on the Israel Palestine forum.

no, I'm on the religion forum, which is why I pointed out that there isn't anyone here asking for Canaan......if you have an argument to raise on a different forum, perhaps you should raise it on a different forum.....