"What To The Slave Is The 4th Of July?"

[bgrouse]

Nobody fought for "your" freedom since you were never a slave in the US to begin with. Though there are plenty of African shitholes that still have lots of slavery.

Shut the fuck up. That line doesn't work here. We were slaves and that is that.

How many hundreds of years old are you?

No, you couldn't have been a slave, except maybe if you lived a part of your life in an African shithole. Then it's certainly possible. It's the blacks that are doing the slave trading and slave owning these days. Why don't you want to discuss current events instead of dwelling on nonexistent problems that haven't even been experienced by anyone who hasn't died of old age?

Human trafficking is considered a form of slavery and today it is present at the highest rate in parts of Europe.

Infographic: A Global Look at Human Trafficking

What "parts of Europe?" "Developed economies" is listed as having the smallest number per capita. I also see Europe and "Commonwealth of Independent States," whatever that means.

European Union Report Details Growth Of Human Trafficking

So can you quote the part that says slavery is more common in Europe than in Africa?

 

[katsteve2012]

Shut the fuck up. That line doesn't work here. We were slaves and that is that.

How many hundreds of years old are you?

No, you couldn't have been a slave, except maybe if you lived a part of your life in an African shithole. Then it's certainly possible. It's the blacks that are doing the slave trading and slave owning these days. Why don't you want to discuss current events instead of dwelling on nonexistent problems that haven't even been experienced by anyone who hasn't died of old age?

Human trafficking is considered a form of slavery and today it is present at the highest rate in parts of Europe.

Infographic: A Global Look at Human Trafficking

What "parts of Europe?" "Developed economies" is listed as having the smallest number per capita. I also see Europe and "Commonwealth of Independent States," whatever that means.

European Union Report Details Growth Of Human Trafficking

So can you quote the part that says slavery is more common in Europe than in Africa?

Why do I need to quote anything? The stats were on the map of an earlier post. Its there for you to access and read

It is you who claimed that "it is blacks who are enslaving people". All that I did was to post information that Europeans do as well.

No one group of people are soley guilty.

 

[bgrouse]

How many hundreds of years old are you?

No, you couldn't have been a slave, except maybe if you lived a part of your life in an African shithole. Then it's certainly possible. It's the blacks that are doing the slave trading and slave owning these days. Why don't you want to discuss current events instead of dwelling on nonexistent problems that haven't even been experienced by anyone who hasn't died of old age?

Human trafficking is considered a form of slavery and today it is present at the highest rate in parts of Europe.

Infographic: A Global Look at Human Trafficking

What "parts of Europe?" "Developed economies" is listed as having the smallest number per capita. I also see Europe and "Commonwealth of Independent States," whatever that means.

European Union Report Details Growth Of Human Trafficking

So can you quote the part that says slavery is more common in Europe than in Africa?

Why do I need to quote anything? The stats were on the map of an earlier post. Its there for you to access and read

The map didn't show that slavery is more common in Europe than in Africa.

It is you who claimed that "it is blacks who are enslaving people". All that I did was to post information that Europeans do as well.

No one group of people are soley guilty.

I was making a statement regarding statistics. Is it theoretically possible he was a slave in the USA? Yeah maybe, like those girls who were kidnapped and raped by Castro for a few years, but I was trying to be reasonable and I was under the impression that the discussion dealt with pre-civil war era style slavery.

 

[bgrouse]

And none of you were here on July 4th, 1776, none of you fought the British for your freedom either. And since most of you are from ancestors who came here after this happened, your ancestors did not fight to win your freedom from Britain either.

So without further ado, one of the greatest speeches in American history.

What To The Slave Is The 4th Of July?"
FREDERICK DOUGLASS SPEECH, 1852

Fellow citizens, pardon me, allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here today? What have I, or those I represent, to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? and am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar, and to confess the benefits and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?

For the rest of the speech:

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/douglass.htm

When people bring up not knowing any actual American slaves, it's generally an argument against someone implying they deserve reparations, are not responsible for their actions, or are justified in blaming someone for actions that took place well over 100 years ago. When do the people who celebrate the fourth of July do that? Do they ask for reparations from Britain? Do they blame Britain for their individual, current actions? How often does that happen?

 

[bgrouse]

If we were not there so we can't be held responsible or blame those in the past for things is what you believe relative to certain issues then it applies to all issues. If you cannot hold people responsible for the wrongs you cannot credit them for the right.

You can hold 100+year old dead slave owners responsible all you want. I just wasn't aware any white Americans held modern white Brits to be personally responsible for 200-300 year old events.

 

[Correll]

For the people who have searched their ancestry and know that they were descended from slaves, it would be interesting to hear some of the stories of the trials and tribulations that you're ancestors faced. You should think about doing a thread about that.

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would

1. Your pretense that I find your disagreement to be insulting is dismissed as dishonesty idiocy. It is your uncalled for insults that I find insulting, and you are an ass.


2. Lincoln's 1860 platform plank on stopping the expansion of slavery into new states was not about new northern states but about ALL new territories including southern ones. THis was a violation of the previous compromise and, if enacted a death knell to slavery.

And thus directly led to the danger to the Union.

There is no "pretense" going on here at all with you. I dont regard your lies as being worthy of anything but disdain and ridicule. So if your feelings are hurt by my brutal frankness, tough shit.

Your intentional distortions of historical facts, and your insistence that black people today owe some sort of debt of gratitude to Lincoln are ridiculous to the extreme.

You can misquote, misrepresent and deny history to your hearts content, but the truth will continue to invalidate your misinformed ignorance.

1. Your continued pretense that I find your disagreement insulting, and not your uncalled for insults is noted and dismissed again. Why do you insist on being a dishonest asshole?


2. YOu are the one who can't bring yourself to show respect or gratitude to Lincoln for his pivotal role in ending slavery in thie nation. THat is on you. Your position is absurd.

You being a pompous asshole and trying to dictate to me who I should feel gratitude towards is noted and dismissed.

You are a complete stranger. You do not have a say so in what I feel gratitude for. You troll these boards as if you are some kind of authority and judge as well as jury. Labeling people that you dont even know as "lefty", telling everyone who disagrees with you "my point stands".

You are a smug jerk and I treat ypu sccordingly.

Fuck you.

1. Did I try to dictate to you how to feel? I thought I was attacking your justifications for you position, not trying to tell you what your feelings should be.

2. I have a policy of treating people with as much civility as they show me. My default is civility and respect. You have earned "pompous asshole" with your uncalled for insults. Fuck you.

3.All people judge those around them. This is a discussion forum. I am here to discuss politics with other people. If this is not what you are here for, you might be confused.

4. If your response to a point of mine is stupid and weak and/or dishonest, I will not let you create the illusion of making a point by repetition, (a standard dishonest lefty tactic) and I will point out that my point still stands.

Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

 

[katsteve2012]

For the people who have searched their ancestry and know that they were descended from slaves, it would be interesting to hear some of the stories of the trials and tribulations that you're ancestors faced. You should think about doing a thread about that.

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would

There is no "pretense" going on here at all with you. I dont regard your lies as being worthy of anything but disdain and ridicule. So if your feelings are hurt by my brutal frankness, tough shit.

Your intentional distortions of historical facts, and your insistence that black people today owe some sort of debt of gratitude to Lincoln are ridiculous to the extreme.

You can misquote, misrepresent and deny history to your hearts content, but the truth will continue to invalidate your misinformed ignorance.

1. Your continued pretense that I find your disagreement insulting, and not your uncalled for insults is noted and dismissed again. Why do you insist on being a dishonest asshole?


2. YOu are the one who can't bring yourself to show respect or gratitude to Lincoln for his pivotal role in ending slavery in thie nation. THat is on you. Your position is absurd.

You being a pompous asshole and trying to dictate to me who I should feel gratitude towards is noted and dismissed.

You are a complete stranger. You do not have a say so in what I feel gratitude for. You troll these boards as if you are some kind of authority and judge as well as jury. Labeling people that you dont even know as "lefty", telling everyone who disagrees with you "my point stands".

You are a smug jerk and I treat ypu sccordingly.

Fuck you.

1. Did I try to dictate to you how to feel? I thought I was attacking your justifications for you position, not trying to tell you what your feelings should be.

2. I have a policy of treating people with as much civility as they show me. My default is civility and respect. You have earned "pompous asshole" with your uncalled for insults. Fuck you.

3.All people judge those around them. This is a discussion forum. I am here to discuss politics with other people. If this is not what you are here for, you might be confused.

4. If your response to a point of mine is stupid and weak and/or dishonest, I will not let you create the illusion of making a point by repetition, (a standard dishonest lefty tactic) and I will point out that my point still stands.

Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

 

[katsteve2012]

For the people who have searched their ancestry and know that they were descended from slaves, it would be interesting to hear some of the stories of the trials and tribulations that you're ancestors faced. You should think about doing a thread about that.

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would

There is no "pretense" going on here at all with you. I dont regard your lies as being worthy of anything but disdain and ridicule. So if your feelings are hurt by my brutal frankness, tough shit.

Your intentional distortions of historical facts, and your insistence that black people today owe some sort of debt of gratitude to Lincoln are ridiculous to the extreme.

You can misquote, misrepresent and deny history to your hearts content, but the truth will continue to invalidate your misinformed ignorance.

1. Your continued pretense that I find your disagreement insulting, and not your uncalled for insults is noted and dismissed again. Why do you insist on being a dishonest asshole?


2. YOu are the one who can't bring yourself to show respect or gratitude to Lincoln for his pivotal role in ending slavery in thie nation. THat is on you. Your position is absurd.

You being a pompous asshole and trying to dictate to me who I should feel gratitude towards is noted and dismissed.

You are a complete stranger. You do not have a say so in what I feel gratitude for. You troll these boards as if you are some kind of authority and judge as well as jury. Labeling people that you dont even know as "lefty", telling everyone who disagrees with you "my point stands".

You are a smug jerk and I treat ypu sccordingly.

Fuck you.

1. Did I try to dictate to you how to feel? I thought I was attacking your justifications for you position, not trying to tell you what your feelings should be.

2. I have a policy of treating people with as much civility as they show me. My default is civility and respect. You have earned "pompous asshole" with your uncalled for insults. Fuck you.

3.All people judge those around them. This is a discussion forum. I am here to discuss politics with other people. If this is not what you are here for, you might be confused.

4. If your response to a point of mine is stupid and weak and/or dishonest, I will not let you create the illusion of making a point by repetition, (a standard dishonest lefty tactic) and I will point out that my point still stands.

Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

 

[Correll]

For the people who have searched their ancestry and know that they were descended from slaves, it would be interesting to hear some of the stories of the trials and tribulations that you're ancestors faced. You should think about doing a thread about that.

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would

1. Your continued pretense that I find your disagreement insulting, and not your uncalled for insults is noted and dismissed again. Why do you insist on being a dishonest asshole?


2. YOu are the one who can't bring yourself to show respect or gratitude to Lincoln for his pivotal role in ending slavery in thie nation. THat is on you. Your position is absurd.

You being a pompous asshole and trying to dictate to me who I should feel gratitude towards is noted and dismissed.

You are a complete stranger. You do not have a say so in what I feel gratitude for. You troll these boards as if you are some kind of authority and judge as well as jury. Labeling people that you dont even know as "lefty", telling everyone who disagrees with you "my point stands".

You are a smug jerk and I treat ypu sccordingly.

Fuck you.

1. Did I try to dictate to you how to feel? I thought I was attacking your justifications for you position, not trying to tell you what your feelings should be.

2. I have a policy of treating people with as much civility as they show me. My default is civility and respect. You have earned "pompous asshole" with your uncalled for insults. Fuck you.

3.All people judge those around them. This is a discussion forum. I am here to discuss politics with other people. If this is not what you are here for, you might be confused.

4. If your response to a point of mine is stupid and weak and/or dishonest, I will not let you create the illusion of making a point by repetition, (a standard dishonest lefty tactic) and I will point out that my point still stands.

Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

 

[katsteve2012]

For the people who have searched their ancestry and know that they were descended from slaves, it would be interesting to hear some of the stories of the trials and tribulations that you're ancestors faced. You should think about doing a thread about that.

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would

You being a pompous asshole and trying to dictate to me who I should feel gratitude towards is noted and dismissed.

You are a complete stranger. You do not have a say so in what I feel gratitude for. You troll these boards as if you are some kind of authority and judge as well as jury. Labeling people that you dont even know as "lefty", telling everyone who disagrees with you "my point stands".

You are a smug jerk and I treat ypu sccordingly.

Fuck you.

1. Did I try to dictate to you how to feel? I thought I was attacking your justifications for you position, not trying to tell you what your feelings should be.

2. I have a policy of treating people with as much civility as they show me. My default is civility and respect. You have earned "pompous asshole" with your uncalled for insults. Fuck you.

3.All people judge those around them. This is a discussion forum. I am here to discuss politics with other people. If this is not what you are here for, you might be confused.

4. If your response to a point of mine is stupid and weak and/or dishonest, I will not let you create the illusion of making a point by repetition, (a standard dishonest lefty tactic) and I will point out that my point still stands.

Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

 

[Correll]

For the people who have searched their ancestry and know that they were descended from slaves, it would be interesting to hear some of the stories of the trials and tribulations that you're ancestors faced. You should think about doing a thread about that.

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would

1. Did I try to dictate to you how to feel? I thought I was attacking your justifications for you position, not trying to tell you what your feelings should be.

2. I have a policy of treating people with as much civility as they show me. My default is civility and respect. You have earned "pompous asshole" with your uncalled for insults. Fuck you.

3.All people judge those around them. This is a discussion forum. I am here to discuss politics with other people. If this is not what you are here for, you might be confused.

4. If your response to a point of mine is stupid and weak and/or dishonest, I will not let you create the illusion of making a point by repetition, (a standard dishonest lefty tactic) and I will point out that my point still stands.

Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

 

[IM2]

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would
Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

No it's not a credible argument it is a laughable one at best. Lincolns stated words was that his goal was to save the union. That's was it. You can't put other words in his mouth just because you can't deal with the truth.

 

[Correll]

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

No it's not a credible argument it is a laughable one at best. Lincolns stated words was that his goal was to save the union. That's was it. You can't put other words in his mouth just because you can't deal with the truth.

You are cherry picking his qoutes, ignoring context AND ignoring his actual actions and results.

 

[IM2]

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

No it's not a credible argument it is a laughable one at best. Lincolns stated words was that his goal was to save the union. That's was it. You can't put other words in his mouth just because you can't deal with the truth.

You are cherry picking his qoutes, ignoring context AND ignoring his actual actions and results.

No we aren't cherry picking shit. We aren't ignoring shit either. But you are making shit up.

 

[Marion Morrison]

This is a load of bullshit Correll. It's just that simple. The nation didn't choose shit. At best half the nations white men voted and white men did not constitute the entire nation. And don't give those white men credit for what they did not do.

Elections are the nation making a choice. A limited franchise does not change that.

I'm not giving them credit for what they didn't do.

I'm giving them credit for what they did do.


THey choose the strongest anti-slavery guy on the ticket, even though it led to a bloody war.

THey reaffirmed that choice when they re-elected him, in the middle of the bloodiest war in American History.

That's was their choice. To fight and to keep fighting.

Yes you're trying to give credit where It's not deserved.

You need to understand one simple reality correll. Whites made slavery legal. That was a mistake, they fucked up, it was stupid, dumb, a flawed decision. So for you to act like it was some fucking great noble deed for whites to correct their own fuck up is just as stupid. Nobody owes any debt of gratitude to white people for deciding to do what os right. Why should we be grateful? What the fuck s going through your mid? That we backs should be happy because we could still be saves or something? Because that's all you're trying to say here.

The truth s that Lincoln was not elected either time because of his claimed anti slavery stance. The war was fought to preserve the union. The only reason Lincoln was elected a second time was that the north pulled out a couple of victories in the war because the North wanted tp stop fighting. Now you can lie to yourself all you want. You can post extra large pictures all you want, but I know that Lincoln did not fight t end slavery, that he saw blacks as inferior and he was a racist.

1. "Whites" made slavery legal? Someone tell that to the Ottomans. For ONE example.

2. If any voters in 1860 thought there was a bigger issue than slavery, they were fools.

So many times you chumps tell me how you were not around at certain times and since you were not around then, you don't know what the real issues were.

Wow. A supposed academic arguing AGAINST the possibility of understanding something though study....

Incredible.

Anyway, it is absurd to think that slavery was not the primary issue of the elections in 1860 or 1865.

Secondly we are talking about America not the Ottoman empire . So you can stop playing that dumb ass game you white people play when you are presented with the fact that your white asses made slavery legal in these united states.

I was responding to what you said. It is fairly common of you lefties to act as though white people invented slavery or it only happened here.

Just giving you a reality check.

Slavery was not invented here. It was pretty much global and normal when white people first started coming to these shores. It was not some new idea that white people came up with here in the Americas.

Whites made slavery legal and for whites to have corrected your fuck up is nothing to be happy about nor is it something that should be cherished or bragged about. Whites fucked up and after some 200 years whites finally decided to do something about their fuck up.

Now for you to try bragging about how a war was fought over slavery shows just how stupid whites were in this regard. They fucked up, knew they fucked up from the beginning, but yet refused to fix the fuck up until half a million of you died.

You talk of those that instituted slavery in the hemisphere, and those that fought to end it in this hemisphere as though they were the same people.


Which has to be dishonest of you, as no one can be that stupid.


Right?


Lincoln, and those that followed him, so often to their deaths, deserve credit for their fight against slavery.

That you can't give it to them, because they are white, is your racism speaking.

You're wrong. The only reason Lincoln wanted to free slaves was in the hopes that they'd rise up against their masters in the South.

He wanted to end the war.

He ended up sending Sherman down south, now I've talked to a couple of old people 'round GA and they hate Sherman.


I have to side with IM2 and katsteve on that one, because they're right.

 

[katsteve2012]

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

No it's not a credible argument it is a laughable one at best. Lincolns stated words was that his goal was to save the union. That's was it. You can't put other words in his mouth just because you can't deal with the truth.

Correct. Any credible historian knows that Lincoln's priority was to save the Union.

There is no historical information anywhere that validates him placing ending slavery on "moral grounds" above saving the Union.

That's some made up B.S. that Correll pulled out of his anal cavity.

Lincoln, the Presidency, and Prudence: Restoring the Union and Ending Slavery

 

[bgrouse]

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

No it's not a credible argument it is a laughable one at best. Lincolns stated words was that his goal was to save the union. That's was it. You can't put other words in his mouth just because you can't deal with the truth.

You are cherry picking his qoutes, ignoring context AND ignoring his actual actions and results.

Lincoln let some states keep their slaves in exchange for joining the union.

 

[katsteve2012]

Been there done that. In this forum that would be a waste of time...fodder for wingnuts who would
Your "points" are usually not founded on amything but speculation....as far as the rest of your drivel....word vomit.

Sure your "points" stand. For absolutely nothing of value.

I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.


You are lying.

Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between "your opinion" and a "documented fact".

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

The Republican Party platform of 1860 never touched on slavery as a moral issue. The hometead act and preventing expansion of slavery into new territories for the purpose of PRESERVING THE EXISTING LABOR FORCE were their reasons.

Slavery as a moral issue? No. Thats your alternative, made up history at work. You need to attend an 8th grade remedial history class.

Abraham Lincoln said war was over taxes, not slavery

 

[Correll]

THat is not only not true, but does not challenge or even address my point in the post your were supposedly responding to.


reposted here.


I have repeatedly backed up my points with documented historical quotes and ACTIONS by the people involved.

No you have not. You have only posted your opinion, and that does not qualify as a credible argument.

I've cited the Republican Party Platform of 1860, I've cited Lincoln's stated personal beliefs. I cited his actual historical ACTIONS and policies that fully demonstrate his stated personal beliefs.


NOne of that is my personal opinion.

My personal opinion is based on that, and thus supported by it, and THAT is a very credible argument.


ie That Lincoln was anti-slavery on moral grounds and fought the war to end slavery AND save the Union.

No it's not a credible argument it is a laughable one at best. Lincolns stated words was that his goal was to save the union. That's was it. You can't put other words in his mouth just because you can't deal with the truth.

You are cherry picking his qoutes, ignoring context AND ignoring his actual actions and results.

No we aren't cherry picking shit. We aren't ignoring shit either. But you are making shit up.

Yes, you are. You are cherry picking his qoutes, ignoring context AND ignoring his actual actions and results.

 

[Correll]

Elections are the nation making a choice. A limited franchise does not change that.

I'm not giving them credit for what they didn't do.

I'm giving them credit for what they did do.


THey choose the strongest anti-slavery guy on the ticket, even though it led to a bloody war.

THey reaffirmed that choice when they re-elected him, in the middle of the bloodiest war in American History.

That's was their choice. To fight and to keep fighting.

Yes you're trying to give credit where It's not deserved.

You need to understand one simple reality correll. Whites made slavery legal. That was a mistake, they fucked up, it was stupid, dumb, a flawed decision. So for you to act like it was some fucking great noble deed for whites to correct their own fuck up is just as stupid. Nobody owes any debt of gratitude to white people for deciding to do what os right. Why should we be grateful? What the fuck s going through your mid? That we backs should be happy because we could still be saves or something? Because that's all you're trying to say here.

The truth s that Lincoln was not elected either time because of his claimed anti slavery stance. The war was fought to preserve the union. The only reason Lincoln was elected a second time was that the north pulled out a couple of victories in the war because the North wanted tp stop fighting. Now you can lie to yourself all you want. You can post extra large pictures all you want, but I know that Lincoln did not fight t end slavery, that he saw blacks as inferior and he was a racist.

1. "Whites" made slavery legal? Someone tell that to the Ottomans. For ONE example.

2. If any voters in 1860 thought there was a bigger issue than slavery, they were fools.

So many times you chumps tell me how you were not around at certain times and since you were not around then, you don't know what the real issues were.

Wow. A supposed academic arguing AGAINST the possibility of understanding something though study....

Incredible.

Anyway, it is absurd to think that slavery was not the primary issue of the elections in 1860 or 1865.

Secondly we are talking about America not the Ottoman empire . So you can stop playing that dumb ass game you white people play when you are presented with the fact that your white asses made slavery legal in these united states.

I was responding to what you said. It is fairly common of you lefties to act as though white people invented slavery or it only happened here.

Just giving you a reality check.

Slavery was not invented here. It was pretty much global and normal when white people first started coming to these shores. It was not some new idea that white people came up with here in the Americas.

Whites made slavery legal and for whites to have corrected your fuck up is nothing to be happy about nor is it something that should be cherished or bragged about. Whites fucked up and after some 200 years whites finally decided to do something about their fuck up.

Now for you to try bragging about how a war was fought over slavery shows just how stupid whites were in this regard. They fucked up, knew they fucked up from the beginning, but yet refused to fix the fuck up until half a million of you died.

You talk of those that instituted slavery in the hemisphere, and those that fought to end it in this hemisphere as though they were the same people.


Which has to be dishonest of you, as no one can be that stupid.


Right?


Lincoln, and those that followed him, so often to their deaths, deserve credit for their fight against slavery.

That you can't give it to them, because they are white, is your racism speaking.

You're wrong. The only reason Lincoln wanted to free slaves was in the hopes that they'd rise up against their masters in the South.

He wanted to end the war.

He ended up sending Sherman down south, now I've talked to a couple of old people 'round GA and they hate Sherman.


I have to side with IM2 and katsteve on that one, because they're right.

THe war wouldn't have even happened if his campaign platform was not radically anti-slavery.


Or if he was not known to be radically anti-slavery.


SUre, in the context of the moment, I'm sure he hoped that freeing the slaves might cause unrest in the South.


But ending slavery was always a long term goal of Lincoln's,