What's your best guess? (origin of all existence)

[G.T.]

This is one of my favorite topics, right beside time travel and the prospect of discovering Alien life.

A distinction: if you're cross-examining peoples' guesses, please be sure to remember they're calling them a guess and not a knowledge claim.

If I HAD to guess, and a gun was to my head - I would guess that existence is eternal, it was never "created" or "came" to be, but always was.

We talk a lot about time. Without time, the term "beginning" serves no purpose. What if time is simply a byproduct of Space - and something in "existence" created space, but existence itself isnt aged, as age is a function of time. I'm not even sure the human brain is capable of conceptualizing existence without the 4th dimension.

All crazy interesting stuff.....and it makes politics lame as fuck, to me.

Chance. Pure chance. If you give something enough tries anything and everything no matter how unlikely will occur, this includes existence.

What does giving existence tries entail? Can you flesh that out...

Well look at it as abiogenesis which at the moment is the best way to explain our existence. At some point we didn't exist until after a LOT of time non living matter came together to form a self replicating molecule. After that natural selection took over. Now imagine this happening on an infinite timescale and on the scale of a universe.

Abiogenesis was an interaction -


prior to existence itself, there was nothing interacting. So...Im not sure that explains existence occurring as a matter of chance....>?

 

[forkup]

This is one of my favorite topics, right beside time travel and the prospect of discovering Alien life.

A distinction: if you're cross-examining peoples' guesses, please be sure to remember they're calling them a guess and not a knowledge claim.

If I HAD to guess, and a gun was to my head - I would guess that existence is eternal, it was never "created" or "came" to be, but always was.

We talk a lot about time. Without time, the term "beginning" serves no purpose. What if time is simply a byproduct of Space - and something in "existence" created space, but existence itself isnt aged, as age is a function of time. I'm not even sure the human brain is capable of conceptualizing existence without the 4th dimension.

All crazy interesting stuff.....and it makes politics lame as fuck, to me.

Chance. Pure chance. If you give something enough tries anything and everything no matter how unlikely will occur, this includes existence.

What does giving existence tries entail? Can you flesh that out...

Well look at it as abiogenesis which at the moment is the best way to explain our existence. At some point we didn't exist until after a LOT of time non living matter came together to form a self replicating molecule. After that natural selection took over. Now imagine this happening on an infinite timescale and on the scale of a universe.

Abiogenesis was an interaction -


prior to existence itself, there was nothing interacting. So...Im not sure that explains existence occurring as a matter of chance....>?

Maybe not, that's why I'd be a crappy philosopher. Wrapping my head around questions like that give me headaches.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

This would relate to the argument of can "nothing" exist.
Wrapping your brain around the existence of nothing is indeed mind boggling.
How can nothing exist, nothing would have no particles of any matter of any kind, it would have no gravity, therefore no time, no light...no area. Indeed "nothing" cannot exist, if it did - it would be nothing and not exist.
This relates, because empty space is not nothing. What once scientist believe was "empty" space they now know contains "dark matter" - it has gravity, affects time...but we cannot see it, but see it's effects. And we believe that 80% of space is dark matter.
But it has to exist. Because space cannot be empty...or "nothing"...because there is time in space. And time theoretically cannot exist without matter.

What dose this have to do with the OP?
That the origin of everything was always here. Because something can never come from nothing.

 

[G.T.]

Current physics holds that the universe came into existence out of nothing. Most people think this means there was just empty space. No there was not even empty space, you have to take the absolute meaning of nothing as in at the edge of the universe now there is nothing on the other side, there is no other side. It is an expanding bubble that creates space itself. Mathmatics support a universe appearing out of nothing.

Time only measures change. Imagine the universe as empty. No matter, no stars, no planets. And you were immortal and could sit for billions of years from any viewpoint and watch. Nothing at all would happen and you wouldn't know time had passed. Nothing changed. 'Travel' to the future or the past (an imaginary time travel), you'd see exactly the same thing either way.

The one thing that is to be noted is, if space is expanding that means new space is continually created. The universe gets larger so the empty space itself is increading in size. I think this likely has a connection to the dark energy and dark matter that physicists are now exploring. Space itself is a medium. Like water to a fish.

I dont think Ive heard about current physics holding that the universe came from nothing; in fact, we have a plethora of physacists positing multiple universes ~ and the singularity of this universe is said to be the origin of the big bang...not..."nothing."

Even Lawrence Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing" explains that nothing doesnt mean nothing, in the literal sense.

 

[TNHarley]

A supreme being and it always existing is my main two. Obviously, i doubt man made "Creators" but not the idea itself. My reasons why are another thread.
Could we be an alien experiment? I think its just as possible as any other guess. Then again, we could be the first intelligent life in the universe. I dont think too many people even consider that..

I agree with all of this...except the part of us being the 1st intelligent life........seems improbable just because of the age and size.



1 thing I've seperated in my thoughts - is existence itself versus the existence of THIS universe....

So, if Aliens made us ~ or, if we're in some Computer model......the answer of where ultimate "existence" came from is left unanswered.


As to a super being, thats one of the many possibilities and it faces the same limitations as any other......like how "itself" came to be.

I agree it is less likely but considering our lack of actual fact in all this, it is still worthy of discussion IMO.
Can we know how old the universe actually is, though? We dont even know how old our own species is. Sure, some say 14 billion but is that correct?

 

[G.T.]

This would relate to the argument of can "nothing" exist.
Wrapping your brain around the existence of nothing is indeed mind boggling.
How can nothing exist, nothing would have no particles of any matter of any kind, it would have no gravity, therefore no time, no light...no area. Indeed "nothing" cannot exist, if it did - it would be nothing and not exist.
This relates, because empty space is not nothing. What once scientist believe was "empty" space they now know contains "dark matter" - it has gravity, affects time...but we cannot see it, but see it's effects. And we believe that 80% of space is dark matter.
But it has to exist. Because space cannot be empty...or "nothing"...because there is time in space. And time theoretically cannot exist without matter.

What dose this have to do with the OP?
That the origin of everything was always here. Because something can never come from nothing.

The origin of everything being "eternal" is what I was leaning toward. No "beginning"

 

[TNHarley]

A supreme being and it always existing is my main two. Obviously, i doubt man made "Creators" but not the idea itself. My reasons why are another thread.
Could we be an alien experiment? I think its just as possible as any other guess. Then again, we could be the first intelligent life in the universe. I dont think too many people even consider that..

if what was described in the bible as encounters with angelic beings happened today people would report having made contact with aliens.

If intelligent Aliens didnt exist in LARGE numbers all throughout the Universe, I'd be seriously surprised. I think if I was forced to, I would bet my life on it.

I am with you on this. But us being the first is something that is always in the back of my mind. Probably because nobody ever talks about it. I like the underdog lol..

 

[deltex1]

Time is a human concern. No concern of God.

How would you guess God came to exist...

Always was...is now...will be foevah....yo

 

[IsaacNewton]

Current physics holds that the universe came into existence out of nothing. Most people think this means there was just empty space. No there was not even empty space, you have to take the absolute meaning of nothing as in at the edge of the universe now there is nothing on the other side, there is no other side. It is an expanding bubble that creates space itself. Mathmatics support a universe appearing out of nothing.

Time only measures change. Imagine the universe as empty. No matter, no stars, no planets. And you were immortal and could sit for billions of years from any viewpoint and watch. Nothing at all would happen and you wouldn't know time had passed. Nothing changed. 'Travel' to the future or the past (an imaginary time travel), you'd see exactly the same thing either way.

The one thing that is to be noted is, if space is expanding that means new space is continually created. The universe gets larger so the empty space itself is increading in size. I think this likely has a connection to the dark energy and dark matter that physicists are now exploring. Space itself is a medium. Like water to a fish.

I dont think Ive heard about current physics holding that the universe came from nothing; in fact, we have a plethora of physacists positing multiple universes ~ and the singularity of this universe is said to be the origin of the big bang...not..."nothing."

Even Lawrence Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing" explains that nothing doesnt mean nothing, in the literal sense.

The name of the book is A Universe From Nothing for a reason. That is generally the theory held currently. Obviously with variations as nobody knows.

That is a very good book, some of it gets quite exotic. Particles that exist and don't exist at the same time (paraphrasing). They are already finding that things are far stranger than anyone thought. I'm still waiting for a unifying thoery to emerge from the 'exotic' they are researching. It is there somewhere.

 

[G.T.]

A supreme being and it always existing is my main two. Obviously, i doubt man made "Creators" but not the idea itself. My reasons why are another thread.
Could we be an alien experiment? I think its just as possible as any other guess. Then again, we could be the first intelligent life in the universe. I dont think too many people even consider that..

I agree with all of this...except the part of us being the 1st intelligent life........seems improbable just because of the age and size.



1 thing I've seperated in my thoughts - is existence itself versus the existence of THIS universe....

So, if Aliens made us ~ or, if we're in some Computer model......the answer of where ultimate "existence" came from is left unanswered.


As to a super being, thats one of the many possibilities and it faces the same limitations as any other......like how "itself" came to be.

I agree it is less likely but considering our lack of actual fact in all this, it is still worthy of discussion IMO.
Can we know how old the universe actually is, though? We dont even know how old our own species is. Sure, some say 14 billion but is that correct?

I dont know that it's correct...I guess they're confident based on light, expansion, gravitational waves and by aging literal objects.

I doubt its a certainty.

 

[G.T.]

Time is a human concern. No concern of God.

How would you guess God came to exist...

Always was...is now...will be foevah....yo

I wonder how something being eternal even happens, as a process. Or, I guess it would render the term "nothing" a figment of our imagination afterall. Its hard to grasp.

 

[G.T.]

Current physics holds that the universe came into existence out of nothing. Most people think this means there was just empty space. No there was not even empty space, you have to take the absolute meaning of nothing as in at the edge of the universe now there is nothing on the other side, there is no other side. It is an expanding bubble that creates space itself. Mathmatics support a universe appearing out of nothing.

Time only measures change. Imagine the universe as empty. No matter, no stars, no planets. And you were immortal and could sit for billions of years from any viewpoint and watch. Nothing at all would happen and you wouldn't know time had passed. Nothing changed. 'Travel' to the future or the past (an imaginary time travel), you'd see exactly the same thing either way.

The one thing that is to be noted is, if space is expanding that means new space is continually created. The universe gets larger so the empty space itself is increading in size. I think this likely has a connection to the dark energy and dark matter that physicists are now exploring. Space itself is a medium. Like water to a fish.

I dont think Ive heard about current physics holding that the universe came from nothing; in fact, we have a plethora of physacists positing multiple universes ~ and the singularity of this universe is said to be the origin of the big bang...not..."nothing."

Even Lawrence Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing" explains that nothing doesnt mean nothing, in the literal sense.

The name of the book is A Universe From Nothing for a reason. That is generally the theory held currently. Obviously with variations as nobody knows.

That is a very good book, some of it gets quite exotic. Particles that exist and don't exist at the same time (paraphrasing). They are already finding that things are far stranger than anyone thought. I'm still waiting for a unifying thoery to emerge from the 'exotic' they are researching. It is there somewhere.

Theyre close, but so far away.

ba dum...tshhhhh

 

[iamwhatiseem]

This would relate to the argument of can "nothing" exist.
Wrapping your brain around the existence of nothing is indeed mind boggling.
How can nothing exist, nothing would have no particles of any matter of any kind, it would have no gravity, therefore no time, no light...no area. Indeed "nothing" cannot exist, if it did - it would be nothing and not exist.
This relates, because empty space is not nothing. What once scientist believe was "empty" space they now know contains "dark matter" - it has gravity, affects time...but we cannot see it, but see it's effects. And we believe that 80% of space is dark matter.
But it has to exist. Because space cannot be empty...or "nothing"...because there is time in space. And time theoretically cannot exist without matter.

What dose this have to do with the OP?
That the origin of everything was always here. Because something can never come from nothing.

The origin of everything being "eternal" is what I was leaning toward. No "beginning"

Everything was, is, and will always be...just in different forms.
You die, but all of the matter you are will compose to become something else. 100% of it will still be, and was before. It's the small stuff.

 

[G.T.]

This would relate to the argument of can "nothing" exist.
Wrapping your brain around the existence of nothing is indeed mind boggling.
How can nothing exist, nothing would have no particles of any matter of any kind, it would have no gravity, therefore no time, no light...no area. Indeed "nothing" cannot exist, if it did - it would be nothing and not exist.
This relates, because empty space is not nothing. What once scientist believe was "empty" space they now know contains "dark matter" - it has gravity, affects time...but we cannot see it, but see it's effects. And we believe that 80% of space is dark matter.
But it has to exist. Because space cannot be empty...or "nothing"...because there is time in space. And time theoretically cannot exist without matter.

What dose this have to do with the OP?
That the origin of everything was always here. Because something can never come from nothing.

The origin of everything being "eternal" is what I was leaning toward. No "beginning"

Everything was, is, and will always be...just in different forms.
You die, but all of the matter you are will compose to become something else. 100% of it will still be, and was before. It's the small stuff.

As your guess, or by divine revelation you just know what not even cutting edge physicists know...for certain?

 

[Darkwind]

I'm partial to the 'first mover' theory of creation.

The question really is not one about eternal. After all, something that is going to last 100 trillion years would appear eternal to those of us who live a mere 100 years at best.

 

[TNHarley]

Our knowledge is so fucking limited when you think about it.. Sucks so bad, at least for me, as i long to understand the most basic concepts of us and the universe.
Wish i was born in 2200 LOL

 

[G.T.]

I'm partial to the 'first mover' theory of creation.

The question really is not one about eternal. After all, something that is going to last 100 trillion years would appear eternal to those of us who live a mere 100 years at best.

Whats the first mover theory, if you dont mind....

 

[G.T.]

Our knowledge is so fucking limited when you think about it.. Sucks so bad, at least for me, as i long to understand the most basic concepts of us and the universe.
Wish i was born in 2200 LOL

Its so gross what even current science is figuring out how to do.

They will have nano bots in your blood stream alerting you to anything within your systems that's not optimal by 2050. Thats not that far away.

 

[Hossfly]

Our knowledge is so fucking limited when you think about it.. Sucks so bad, at least for me, as i long to understand the most basic concepts of us and the universe.
Wish i was born in 2200 LOL

Hey, TN! Wanna get smart and stay smart? Learn the secrets of the Universe by registering as a Democrat.

 

[TNHarley]

Our knowledge is so fucking limited when you think about it.. Sucks so bad, at least for me, as i long to understand the most basic concepts of us and the universe.
Wish i was born in 2200 LOL

Its so gross what even current science is figuring out how to do.

They will have nano bots in your blood stream alerting you to anything within your systems that's not optimal by 2050. Thats not that far away.

Thats something i need to look into! Thanks man