Where does it say in the Bible that the human soul is formed at the time of conception?

[peach174]

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

75% of this Nation says you're wrong.

You are exaggerating wildly.

Liberal churches are also included in your total and they specifically do not exclude gays.

58% of Americans support same sex marriage.

Shift In Gay Marriage Support Mirrors A Changing America NPR

Gays can marry in Florida but I still can't have medical marijuana.

Regards from Rosie

The topic is souls and abortion not Gay Marriage.

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

75% of this Nation says you're wrong.

You are exaggerating wildly.

Liberal churches are also included in your total and they specifically do not exclude gays.

58% of Americans support same sex marriage.

Shift In Gay Marriage Support Mirrors A Changing America NPR

Gays can marry in Florida but I still can't have medical marijuana.

Regards from Rosie

The topic is souls and abortion not Gay Marriage.

I was referring to Psalms and Jeremiah do not apply.

My next post links to a refutation of your unsupported and wildly exaggerated 75%.

That is out and out false.

Fox News makes up statistics.

Regards from Rosie

Yes, FOX lies quite frequently, also posts inverted polling results, false chyrons, you name it. With FOX, in terms of real journalism and quality, it is a race to the bottom of the barrel.

Except it was a Gallup poll and over 75% of this Nation is Christian.

 

[Statistikhengst]

75% of this Nation says you're wrong.

You are exaggerating wildly.

Liberal churches are also included in your total and they specifically do not exclude gays.

58% of Americans support same sex marriage.

Shift In Gay Marriage Support Mirrors A Changing America NPR

Gays can marry in Florida but I still can't have medical marijuana.

Regards from Rosie

The topic is souls and abortion not Gay Marriage.

75% of this Nation says you're wrong.

You are exaggerating wildly.

Liberal churches are also included in your total and they specifically do not exclude gays.

58% of Americans support same sex marriage.

Shift In Gay Marriage Support Mirrors A Changing America NPR

Gays can marry in Florida but I still can't have medical marijuana.

Regards from Rosie

The topic is souls and abortion not Gay Marriage.

I was referring to Psalms and Jeremiah do not apply.

My next post links to a refutation of your unsupported and wildly exaggerated 75%.

That is out and out false.

Fox News makes up statistics.

Regards from Rosie

Yes, FOX lies quite frequently, also posts inverted polling results, false chyrons, you name it. With FOX, in terms of real journalism and quality, it is a race to the bottom of the barrel.

Except it was a Gallup poll and over 75% of this Nation is Christian.

Link?

Date?

Survey group?

I will gladly look at it, in spite of the fact that Gallup has fallen heavily into disrepute and had to settle for many millions out of court for having cooked the books in 2012.

 

[peach174]

Abortion polls 2014 Do most Americans think most abortions should be illegal
The report claims that these numbers show most Americans think abortion should be illegal in all but a few cases:

U.S. Still Split on Abortion 47 Pro-Choice 46 Pro-Life

U.S. Still Split on Abortion: 47% Pro-Choice, 46% Pro-Life

And only the 47% voices should be heard while the 46% should remain silent.

This is not up for a vote. You don't get to vote away constitutional rights, or in this case the right to privacy.

Who said anything about voting?
Half of this nations voices should not be silenced that is unconstitutional

No one has been silenced, and no one will be silenced.

The 47% pro choice attack and try to discredit the 46% pro life.
Evidence is right here in this thread.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I'm sorry it bothers you that Christians dont think you should kill your children. And I'm sorry it doesn't bother you to kill your children.

as for your question, the bible is very clear that the spirit of man is created before conception. The Lord told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was conceived.

on the day of judgment the Lord will hold us accountable for how we treat the most innocent among us. The unborn child doesn't get more innocent. How do you want to be able to answer Him?

Christians are at liberty to believe whatever they wish, it's no bother at all.

In fact, a significant number of Christians – perhaps even a majority – correctly understand the difference between subjective religious dogma and secular Constitutional law, where Christians accept that as a fact of law, an embryo/fetus is not a 'baby,' nor a 'person' in the legal sense, and consequently not entitled to Constitutional protections.

These Christians have the intelligence and sophistication to realize that although their religious beliefs prohibit them from having an abortion, the Constitution also prohibits them from seeking to violate the privacy rights of women who wish only to exercise their protected liberty of choice.

 

[Carla_Danger]

U.S. Still Split on Abortion 47 Pro-Choice 46 Pro-Life

U.S. Still Split on Abortion: 47% Pro-Choice, 46% Pro-Life

And only the 47% voices should be heard while the 46% should remain silent.

This is not up for a vote. You don't get to vote away constitutional rights, or in this case the right to privacy.

Who said anything about voting?
Half of this nations voices should not be silenced that is unconstitutional

No one has been silenced, and no one will be silenced.

The 47% pro choice attack and try to discredit the 46% pro life.
Evidence is right here in this thread.

Correction: It's the anti-choice vs pro-choice. You can't be pro-life if you're for the death penalty.

I don't feel I have ever attacked you. This is a debate forum.

 

[peach174]

The majority of Americans support abortion rights:

Majority Supports Legal Abortion But Details Indicate Ambivalence - ABC News

The debate occurs over limitations beginning at 20 weeks or at 24 weeks.

Regards from Rosie

Abortion polls 2014 Do most Americans think most abortions should be illegal
The report claims that these numbers show most Americans think abortion should be illegal in all but a few cases:

Do you even read your own link?

In YOUR link it says that those numbers are a result of pro-life spin.

The actual number who think abortion should be legal in at least the first trimester is 61%

Go back and reread your own link. It doesn't say what you think it does.

Your number is a Fox News type lie. The news channel that got a Federal Judge's permission to air lies.


Regards from Rosie

Why do keep insisting on using Fox when my links have been Gallup and Saletan.
I copied the words right from the link of Saletan not Fox.

Gallup 77% identify as Christian.
You said The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.
I said that you are wrong because 75% of this country is Christian
In U.S. 77 Identify as Christian
I said nothing about gay marriage you brought that up.
You need to stop twisting and adding things.

 

[peach174]

And only the 47% voices should be heard while the 46% should remain silent.

This is not up for a vote. You don't get to vote away constitutional rights, or in this case the right to privacy.

Who said anything about voting?
Half of this nations voices should not be silenced that is unconstitutional

No one has been silenced, and no one will be silenced.

The 47% pro choice attack and try to discredit the 46% pro life.
Evidence is right here in this thread.

Correction: It's the anti-choice vs pro-choice. You can't be pro-life if you're for the death penalty.

I don't feel I have ever attacked you. This is a debate forum.

It was not a personal statement but a general one.
Why is it wrong to protect innocent life but wrong to kill a murder.
Innocent life has done nothing to deserve a violent death.
At least those who get the death penalty are asleep as they are being put to death.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

And only the 47% voices should be heard while the 46% should remain silent.

This is not up for a vote. You don't get to vote away constitutional rights, or in this case the right to privacy.

Who said anything about voting?
Half of this nations voices should not be silenced that is unconstitutional

No one has been silenced, and no one will be silenced.

The 47% pro choice attack and try to discredit the 46% pro life.
Evidence is right here in this thread.

Correction: It's the anti-choice vs pro-choice. You can't be pro-life if you're for the death penalty.

I don't feel I have ever attacked you. This is a debate forum.

Correct.

In fact everyone is pro-life.

The issue has nothing to do with the merits of abortion – a practice which clearly needs to end; rather, the conflict is how to best end the practice, where most on the right seek to 'ban' abortion, in violation of the Constitution, and to the detriment of individual liberty.

To defend the privacy rights of women is not to 'support' abortion, it's an effort to move the debate toward finding an actual, viable solution to the problem of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This is not up for a vote. You don't get to vote away constitutional rights, or in this case the right to privacy.

Who said anything about voting?
Half of this nations voices should not be silenced that is unconstitutional

No one has been silenced, and no one will be silenced.

The 47% pro choice attack and try to discredit the 46% pro life.
Evidence is right here in this thread.

Correction: It's the anti-choice vs pro-choice. You can't be pro-life if you're for the death penalty.

I don't feel I have ever attacked you. This is a debate forum.

It was not a personal statement but a general one.
Why is it wrong to protect innocent life but wrong to kill a murder.
Innocent life has done nothing to deserve a violent death.
At least those who get the death penalty are asleep as they are being put to death.

The issue is not about protecting 'innocent life,' the issue concerns what constitutes 'protection,' where you may not seek to 'protect' by violating the privacy rights of women.

 

[beagle9]

Palms was written between 1440 BC to 586 BC
Psalm 139:13-16New International Version (NIV)
13 For you created my inmost being you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;your works are wonderful,I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

They knew

They did not know what a blastocyst was. It is unlikely that they knew much about any development up until it started moving under the mother's skin. They were primitive peoples, who did not apply the scientific method.

Proof that it is Gods words and not ancient Man.

You have proof of no such thing.

So Psalms & Jeremiah does not exist?

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

Is that why modern law's are failing, because they rely heavily now upon mans unruly teachings and/or his penniless understanding of things, and this being apart from God's law's and his teachings sought after throughout the world since the beginning ? Without God, man is nothing, and it has been proven time and time again and in so many ways that this is truth. Man has forsaken that which has given him breathe and has given him life yet again in history, and he has sought to become a god of men himself, but this has been proven time and time again to be a failure in the worlds history, so why go against the grain so much ? The bible tells of this very time period, and man's actions within it for which we all live, so why don't people read it and become amazed at how accurate it actually is ? Note that the bible/word that was delivered onto us is not time constrained, so don't try and date it in anyway or you will be fooling yourselves upon doing so.

 

[Agit8r]

They did not know what a blastocyst was. It is unlikely that they knew much about any development up until it started moving under the mother's skin. They were primitive peoples, who did not apply the scientific method.

Proof that it is Gods words and not ancient Man.

You have proof of no such thing.

So Psalms & Jeremiah does not exist?

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

Is that why modern law's are failing, because they rely heavily now upon mans unruly teachings and/or his penniless understanding of things, and this being apart from God's law's and his teachings sought after throughout the world since the beginning ? Without God, man is nothing, and it has been proven time and time again and in so many ways that this is truth. Man has forsaken that which has given him breathe and has given him life yet again in history, and he has sought to become a god of men himself, but this has been proven time and time again to be a failure in the worlds history, so why go against the grain so much ? The bible tells of this very time period, and man's actions within it for which we all live, so why don't people read it and become amazed at how accurate it actually is ? Note that the bible/word that was delivered onto us is not time constrained, so don't try and date it in anyway or you will be fooling yourselves upon doing so.

Separation between civil and ecclesiastical laws is fundamental to Anglo-Saxon legal tradition--and thus to our Common Law. The alternative is not an acceptable one:

"You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for God the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
-- Osama bin Laden; from 'Letter to America'

 

[beagle9]

Proof that it is Gods words and not ancient Man.

You have proof of no such thing.

So Psalms & Jeremiah does not exist?

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

75% of this Nation says you're wrong.

You are exaggerating wildly.

Liberal churches are also included in your total and they specifically do not exclude gays.

58% of Americans support same sex marriage.

Shift In Gay Marriage Support Mirrors A Changing America NPR

Gays can marry in Florida but I still can't have medical marijuana.

Regards from Rosie

When men begin walking around with other men as in being married to one another like a man and a woman is supposed to be, and they begin doing so in front of the children openly, then the children will begin to ask questions about this strange situation. Now when they do, what will society tell the children that is going on? Remember now, that if we teach the little ones to sin or that sin is OK, then it will be that we all should take a talent and place it around our necks, and then to sink ourselves to the bottom of the sea. It will be that bad for us..Off topic of course, but you added this so I added my opinion to it.

 

[beagle9]

Proof that it is Gods words and not ancient Man.

You have proof of no such thing.

So Psalms & Jeremiah does not exist?

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

Is that why modern law's are failing, because they rely heavily now upon mans unruly teachings and/or his penniless understanding of things, and this being apart from God's law's and his teachings sought after throughout the world since the beginning ? Without God, man is nothing, and it has been proven time and time again and in so many ways that this is truth. Man has forsaken that which has given him breathe and has given him life yet again in history, and he has sought to become a god of men himself, but this has been proven time and time again to be a failure in the worlds history, so why go against the grain so much ? The bible tells of this very time period, and man's actions within it for which we all live, so why don't people read it and become amazed at how accurate it actually is ? Note that the bible/word that was delivered onto us is not time constrained, so don't try and date it in anyway or you will be fooling yourselves upon doing so.

Separation between civil and ecclesiastical laws is fundamental to Anglo-Saxon legal tradition--and thus to our Common Law. The alternative is not an acceptable one:

"You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for God the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
-- Osama bin Laden; from 'Letter to America'

So even he saw the balance begin to shift in these things, wherefore the balance is becoming lost as man seeks to take the seat of God in this world, and for which he and another wants to now totally control.

 

[hortysir]

Jeremiah 1:4-5 ESV /

Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 127:3 ESV /

Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.


Exodus 21:22-25English Standard Version (ESV)

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,[a] then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

These bible passages were written by men, devoid of fact and authority, and are consequently legally and Constitutionally irrelevant.

One is at liberty to use such subjective religious dogma to guide his personal life, but he is not at liberty to use such subjective religious dogma as justification to compel conformity in secular law.

He simply answered the OP

 

[RosieS]

The majority of Americans support abortion rights:

Majority Supports Legal Abortion But Details Indicate Ambivalence - ABC News

The debate occurs over limitations beginning at 20 weeks or at 24 weeks.

Regards from Rosie

Abortion polls 2014 Do most Americans think most abortions should be illegal
The report claims that these numbers show most Americans think abortion should be illegal in all but a few cases:

Do you even read your own link?

In YOUR link it says that those numbers are a result of pro-life spin.

The actual number who think abortion should be legal in at least the first trimester is 61%

Go back and reread your own link. It doesn't say what you think it does.

Your number is a Fox News type lie. The news channel that got a Federal Judge's permission to air lies.


Regards from Rosie

Why do keep insisting on using Fox when my links have been Gallup and Saletan.
I copied the words right from the link of Saletan not Fox.

Gallup 77% identify as Christian.
You said The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.
I said that you are wrong because 75% of this country is Christian
In U.S. 77 Identify as Christian
I said nothing about gay marriage you brought that up.
You need to stop twisting and adding things.

I am telling you that you are wildly exaggerating.

America is not a Christian nation and was not founded to be one.

Today's laws are not written to be in accord with or follow the Bible.

A good percentage of Americans who call themselves Christian belong to liberal Christian sects and support abortion rights.

You cannot just throw a number out and then avoid learning what these numbers actually mean

It would help if you would actually read your OWN link first. I should not have to teach you what your own link says.

Regards from Rosie

 

[beagle9]

I'm sorry it bothers you that Christians dont think you should kill your children. And I'm sorry it doesn't bother you to kill your children.

as for your question, the bible is very clear that the spirit of man is created before conception. The Lord told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was conceived.

on the day of judgment the Lord will hold us accountable for how we treat the most innocent among us. The unborn child doesn't get more innocent. How do you want to be able to answer Him?

Christians are at liberty to believe whatever they wish, it's no bother at all.

In fact, a significant number of Christians – perhaps even a majority – correctly understand the difference between subjective religious dogma and secular Constitutional law, where Christians accept that as a fact of law, an embryo/fetus is not a 'baby,' nor a 'person' in the legal sense, and consequently not entitled to Constitutional protections.

These Christians have the intelligence and sophistication to realize that although their religious beliefs prohibit them from having an abortion, the Constitution also prohibits them from seeking to violate the privacy rights of women who wish only to exercise their protected liberty of choice.

So in the specific case of abortion in America, a woman has the protected liberty by law to kill a human being that is forming in her womb ?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

They did not know what a blastocyst was. It is unlikely that they knew much about any development up until it started moving under the mother's skin. They were primitive peoples, who did not apply the scientific method.

Proof that it is Gods words and not ancient Man.

You have proof of no such thing.

So Psalms & Jeremiah does not exist?

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

Is that why modern law's are failing, because they rely heavily now upon mans unruly teachings and/or his penniless understanding of things, and this being apart from God's law's and his teachings sought after throughout the world since the beginning ? Without God, man is nothing, and it has been proven time and time again and in so many ways that this is truth. Man has forsaken that which has given him breathe and has given him life yet again in history, and he has sought to become a god of men himself, but this has been proven time and time again to be a failure in the worlds history, so why go against the grain so much ? The bible tells of this very time period, and man's actions within it for which we all live, so why don't people read it and become amazed at how accurate it actually is ? Note that the bible/word that was delivered onto us is not time constrained, so don't try and date it in anyway or you will be fooling yourselves upon doing so.

You've got that backwards.

The conjoining of church and state, the divine right of kings, and theocracies in general have all failed and been responsible for great suffering, tyranny, and oppression.

Hence the Framers' mandate that church and state remain separate, to prohibit codifying subjective religious dogma into secular law used to discriminate, used to disadvantage, and used to benefit one class of persons to the detriment of other classes of persons.

 

[beagle9]

The majority of Americans support abortion rights:

Majority Supports Legal Abortion But Details Indicate Ambivalence - ABC News

The debate occurs over limitations beginning at 20 weeks or at 24 weeks.

Regards from Rosie

Abortion polls 2014 Do most Americans think most abortions should be illegal
The report claims that these numbers show most Americans think abortion should be illegal in all but a few cases:

Do you even read your own link?

In YOUR link it says that those numbers are a result of pro-life spin.

The actual number who think abortion should be legal in at least the first trimester is 61%

Go back and reread your own link. It doesn't say what you think it does.

Your number is a Fox News type lie. The news channel that got a Federal Judge's permission to air lies.


Regards from Rosie

Why do keep insisting on using Fox when my links have been Gallup and Saletan.
I copied the words right from the link of Saletan not Fox.

Gallup 77% identify as Christian.
You said The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.
I said that you are wrong because 75% of this country is Christian
In U.S. 77 Identify as Christian
I said nothing about gay marriage you brought that up.
You need to stop twisting and adding things.

I am telling you that you are wildly exaggerating.

America is not a Christian nation and was not founded to be one.

Today's laws are not written to be in accord with or follow the Bible.

A good percentage of Americans who call themselves Christian belong to liberal Christian sects and support abortion rights.

You cannot just throw a number out and then avoid learning what these numbers actually mean

It would help if you would actually read your OWN link first. I should not have to teach you what your own link says.

Regards from Rosie

It is true that a shift has occurred over time here, but it is also true that the nation could soon regret the shift or any shift in which it has experienced through out it's history, but no one knows how long it takes before the nation might find it was wrong on something now does it ? Sometimes it takes years and a few or more generations to see the folly found in the mistakes that are made from years ago. Sadly there are grown people who don't care what their choices made today, will do to their children of tomorrow, or what their children might become due to the choices that are made today. We are experiencing this right now in America, and the whole world could be watching and experiencing it also.

 

[beagle9]

Proof that it is Gods words and not ancient Man.

You have proof of no such thing.

So Psalms & Jeremiah does not exist?

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

Is that why modern law's are failing, because they rely heavily now upon mans unruly teachings and/or his penniless understanding of things, and this being apart from God's law's and his teachings sought after throughout the world since the beginning ? Without God, man is nothing, and it has been proven time and time again and in so many ways that this is truth. Man has forsaken that which has given him breathe and has given him life yet again in history, and he has sought to become a god of men himself, but this has been proven time and time again to be a failure in the worlds history, so why go against the grain so much ? The bible tells of this very time period, and man's actions within it for which we all live, so why don't people read it and become amazed at how accurate it actually is ? Note that the bible/word that was delivered onto us is not time constrained, so don't try and date it in anyway or you will be fooling yourselves upon doing so.

You've got that backwards.

The conjoining of church and state, the divine right of kings, and theocracies in general have all failed and been responsible for great suffering, tyranny, and oppression.

Hence the Framers' mandate that church and state remain separate, to prohibit codifying subjective religious dogma into secular law used to discriminate, used to disadvantage, and used to benefit one class of persons to the detriment of other classes of persons.

What classes of person's are you referring to, and are we seeing a whole new class of person's being developed right before our very eyes now ? Is every class or cult that forms now, somehow acceptable by the norms of society, and therefore they should be protected even if they are something that has formed in which most of society see's as dangerous and not normal to society ? What will guide society any longer then, and what will protect the children from the big bad wolf or wolves that are forming into powerful groups because of the confusion being turned into weakness in order to prey upon the children these days ? Might best read all the Woe's in the bible, because it speaks of man's folly in these Woe's.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You have proof of no such thing.

So Psalms & Jeremiah does not exist?

They no longer apply.

Religion no longer rules Medicine and the Law.

The 20th Century almost completely removed religion from secular society.

Modern laws no longer enforce church laws.

Regards from Rosie

Is that why modern law's are failing, because they rely heavily now upon mans unruly teachings and/or his penniless understanding of things, and this being apart from God's law's and his teachings sought after throughout the world since the beginning ? Without God, man is nothing, and it has been proven time and time again and in so many ways that this is truth. Man has forsaken that which has given him breathe and has given him life yet again in history, and he has sought to become a god of men himself, but this has been proven time and time again to be a failure in the worlds history, so why go against the grain so much ? The bible tells of this very time period, and man's actions within it for which we all live, so why don't people read it and become amazed at how accurate it actually is ? Note that the bible/word that was delivered onto us is not time constrained, so don't try and date it in anyway or you will be fooling yourselves upon doing so.

Separation between civil and ecclesiastical laws is fundamental to Anglo-Saxon legal tradition--and thus to our Common Law. The alternative is not an acceptable one:

"You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for God the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
-- Osama bin Laden; from 'Letter to America'

So even he saw the balance begin to shift in these things, wherefore the balance is becoming lost as man seeks to take the seat of God in this world, and for which he and another wants to now totally control.

Religion and 'god' are creations of man, devoid of objectivity, merit, and authority, having no place in determining public policy and governance; this is why the Framers wisely sought to prohibit the bane of religious dogma from poisoning the American Nation.