Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[thanatos144]

Supporting Abortion and Planned Parenthood means supporting racism.

 

[catzmeow]

The concept that a human must be sentient in order to have a right to life is just another way the left is edging us towards acceptance of killing off those they consider a "drain" on resources.

Actually, it is an acknowledgement of what we now know about brain function that we didn't know back in the dark ages when people thought of sentience as "a soul."

I don't acknowledge that. Can you support it?

I've already supported it. Read up the thread.

 

[catzmeow]

Our Declaration claims that one of the things that are "self-evident" is that all men are CREATED equal. They are equal from their creation. Equality is not dependent upon intelligence, or wealth, or stage of development.

I see what you did there. The declaration was never intended as a statement on pre-born life. When the statement was made, it referred only to adult males.

Also, this is a red herring. If you wish to make this argument, I'd advise creating a new thread.

 

[bobcollum]

Supporting Abortion and Planned Parenthood means supporting racism.

Link?

 

[koshergrl]

No, support that the belief that people must be sentient to have a right to life. I know what sentience is. My point is that the assumption that someone must be sentient to have a right to the protection of the law is not true. I'm not challenging the definition of sentience. I'm challenging the statement that people must be sentient to be protected.

 

[koshergrl]

Our Declaration claims that one of the things that are "self-evident" is that all men are CREATED equal. They are equal from their creation. Equality is not dependent upon intelligence, or wealth, or stage of development.

I see what you did there. The declaration was never intended as a statement on pre-born life. When the statement was made, it referred only to adult males.

Also, this is a red herring. If you wish to make this argument, I'd advise creating a new thread.

What do you think they meant by "created"?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

And the argument belongs here. It's a rebuttal to your assertion that humans must be sentient to enjoy protection of the law.

 

[thanatos144]

Supporting Abortion and Planned Parenthood means supporting racism.

Link?

You need a link to the beliefs of Margret Sanger? If you dont know what your supporting how can you support it?

The Truth About Margaret Sanger

http://blackquillandink.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/margaret-sanger-quotes.pdf

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, In Her Own Words

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood's Racist Founder - YouTube

 

[bobcollum]

Supporting Abortion and Planned Parenthood means supporting racism.

Link?

You need a link to the beliefs of Margret Sanger? If you dont know what your supporting how can you support it?

The Truth About Margaret Sanger

http://blackquillandink.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/margaret-sanger-quotes.pdf

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, In Her Own Words

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood's Racist Founder - YouTube

This doesn't provide any evidence to your claim.

So is the problem with many opinions.

 

[thanatos144]

Link?

You need a link to the beliefs of Margret Sanger? If you dont know what your supporting how can you support it?

The Truth About Margaret Sanger

http://blackquillandink.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/margaret-sanger-quotes.pdf

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, In Her Own Words

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood's Racist Founder - YouTube

This doesn't provide any evidence to your claim.

So is the problem with many opinions.

Yes all you can do is ignore and deny cause the truth is hard.

 

[bobcollum]

You need a link to the beliefs of Margret Sanger? If you dont know what your supporting how can you support it?

The Truth About Margaret Sanger

http://blackquillandink.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/margaret-sanger-quotes.pdf

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, In Her Own Words

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood's Racist Founder - YouTube

This doesn't provide any evidence to your claim.

So is the problem with many opinions.

Yes all you can do is ignore and deny cause the truth is hard.

You've potentially proven that a woman that died in 1966 was racist.

Your initial claim covered a much broader area.

 

[manifold]

Supporting Abortion and Planned Parenthood means supporting racism.

I don't follow.

 

[manifold]

Supporting Abortion and Planned Parenthood means supporting racism.

Link?

He's drawing a subjective inference, of some kind, which by definition makes it his opinion.

I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt and assume he really does hold the opinions he posts.

Where he loses me is how he connects the two.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

You need a link to the beliefs of Margret Sanger? If you dont know what your supporting how can you support it?

The Truth About Margaret Sanger

http://blackquillandink.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/margaret-sanger-quotes.pdf

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, In Her Own Words

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood's Racist Founder - YouTube

This doesn't provide any evidence to your claim.

So is the problem with many opinions.

Yes all you can do is ignore and deny cause the truth is hard.

Easy there with the generalities, tiger. I'm pro-choice in terms of what I think the Federal govt's stance should be and pro-life in my own personal, moral values.

I don't support using tax payer dollars to fund abortion, and I don't support the use of abortion to forcefully cull the herd for racist or economic (or any) reasons.

Don't tell me what I do and don't support, please

Edit: Quoted the wrong post. Correct post'er, though.

 

[Uncensored2008]

No. Sentience is the ability TO THINK and TO FEEL.

Sentience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

D. Cole: Sense and Sentience

You are still confused.

Being able to feel has no impact on the equation, the key word here is "ability."

Humans, as a species have the ability to think and feel. Regardless of whether certain members of the species lack the ability to think and feel, the SPECIES has this as defining characteristic.

We cannot declare that a sociopath, lacking empathy, is not human. (You might, but doing so is irrational.)

C.S. Lewis said: " 'Life' in the biological sense has nothing to do with good and evil until sentience appears."..."No doubt, living plants react to injuries differently from inorganic matter; but an anaesthetised human body reacts more differently still and such reactions do not prove sentience."

So you would claim that a person anesthetized forfeits all rights and can be killed at will?

Some humans, on an individual basis, cannot think or feel. Their brain does not function,

Yet civilized societies continue to regard them as human.

either because it isn't developed or because of brain injury. When their brain stops functioning (persistent vegetative state), we remove life support because they have lost their humanity (the ability to think or feel).

The ability to feel is lost in many spinal injuries, is your argument that the inability to feel renders the person "non-human" and without legal protection?

You're attempting to imply something else, and you need to provide evidence for that idea.

I don't imply anything, I am openly stating that the philosophical construct of "sentient" is applicable to a species, not on an individual basis. The desire to dehumanize intended victims notwithstanding.

 

[HUGGY]

Where should the line be drawn on abortion?


Coat hangers... definitely no coat hangers...

 

[Uncensored2008]

Actually, it is an acknowledgement of what we now know about brain function that we didn't know back in the dark ages when people thought of sentience as "a soul."

Sentience, as a concept, developed in the 18th century amongst philosophers who were trying to determine what it means to be human. Think Rousseau: "I think, therefore, I am."

When the thinking stops (when brain function stops), we stop thinking of a hunk of meat as human. At that point, it is a cadaver, or will be one shortly.

The extension being, "you don't think, therefor I am justified in killing you." Not exactly what Rousseau postulated, is it?

 

[Uncensored2008]

You need a link to the beliefs of Margret Sanger? If you dont know what your supporting how can you support it?

The Truth About Margaret Sanger

http://blackquillandink.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/margaret-sanger-quotes.pdf

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, In Her Own Words

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood's Racist Founder - YouTube

Classic causation failure;

Syllogism:

Sanger was a racist
Sanger promoted abortion
therefor, abortion is racist.

Do you see the flaw?

In fact, Sanger promoted abortion to FURTHER her racism, as a tool rather than as an outcome. Sanger wanted to abort black babies because she viewed blacks as "mud people." Abortion didn't form her view, Eugenics did, abortion was the REACTION to her views, not the cause.

Thus, causation fails and your syllogism along with it.

 

[koshergrl]

Supporting Abortion and Planned Parenthood means supporting racism.

I don't follow.

The connection is the numbers.

Blacks are targeted by Planned Parenthood, both here and abroad, and are 3x as likely to have abortions. That, along with the fact that Sanger's stated mission was to eliminate undesirables (which she stated were black and brown people) shows a link between racism and Planned Parenthood.

"Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America. 78% of their clinics are in minority communities. Blacks make up 12% of the population, but 35% of the abortions in America."

"Margaret Sanger, was a devout racist who created the Negro Project designed to sterilize unknowing black women and others she deemed as undesirables of society? The founder of Planned Parenthood said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated."

http://www.blackgenocide.org/planned.html

 

[catzmeow]

The extension being, "you don't think, therefor I am justified in killing you." Not exactly what Rousseau postulated, is it?

Are hospitals justified in pulling the plug on life support of a permanently vegetative adult?

The parallels are the same. When brain function ceases, the person is considered medically dead. So, in other words, it is a direct extension of Rousseau: "I do not think, therefore, I am not." I, of course, being the awareness of self and any other thing.

The thinking is what makes us human. It doesn't have to be high level thinking, but that thinking has to occur, otherwise, it's still life, but it isn't really human life. What separates humans from mice or dogs or cows or cockroaches is sentience. You recognize this separation, you just believe that fetuses are somehow mystically more important than an adult human in a vegetative state.

I've provided clear evidence that fetuses are not able to sense ANYTHING until around the 20th week. They don't hear, feel, think, see or perceive. Up until the brain develops to a degree of complexity that these tasks are possible, these higher level thinking functions do not exist. Thus, terminating a pregnancy before the point of sentience is not the same, morally, as killing someone. Because, in order to kill someone, they have to be sentient. Otherwise, it isn't isn't killing. It's dinner.

You have zero problems with dinner, you're just having religious objections to being classified in the same way that you classify other living beings.

 

[koshergrl]

Not really, as a person in a persistent vegetative state is never going to become a walking, talking, thinking person ever again. Persistent vegetative state isn't a development stage that someone will grow out of if left alone. If it was, that would paint a completely different picture.