Who Are The Palestinains?

[Kondor3]

"Self determination"?

That is exactly what the Jews of Old Palestine exercised for themselves in 1948...

They took it upon themselves to determine their own future...

By carving off a slice of Old Palestine and declaring a Nation-State of their own...

Had the Palestinians had the brains to do the same thing, the same day, in connection with those areas of Old Palestine NOT claimed-by or NOT controlled-by the Jews, and held their fire, and convinced their Muslim-Arab neighbors not to interfere, the Muslim-Arabs of Rump Palestine have long-since had a viable State of their own, and would not be reduced to the sorry state of affairs in which we see them now...

These same dullard Palestinians had several other opportunities, beyond 1948-1949, to make good on aspirations for a Nation-State of their own, which would have at least given them most of the West Bank and Gaza, but, characteristically, they pissed-away those opportunities as well, until the Israelis reached a state where they saw no further point in attempting to negotiate in-earnest with these idiots.

Idiots who continue to piss and moan over the division of Old Palestine 66 years ago, out of sheer impotency, given that they have repeatedly missed chances to establish a Nation-State of their own, and given that their own behaviors over the decades have eroded their position and prospects to the point where former opportunities to establish a viable Nation-State of their own have now evaporated.

Idiots with nothing left to do but (1) continue the violence with zero prospect of affecting the outcome, and continuing to die, pointlessly, in large numbers, or (2) pack up and move to a better place and start a new life, or (3) continue piss and moan and whine like old women.

"Palestine" is a failed nation-state wannabe, representing a rag-tag and diverse slapped-together collective of old tribal types and much more recently-arrived immigrant worker-bees and indigents, with a modern and artificially-contrived common identity as phony as a three-dollar bill, and a leadership and militant following more obnoxious, barbaric, bloodthirsty, savage and Neanderthal -like in their outward manifestations than we can readily identify and see elsewhere. Nature has de-selected them, through their own idiocy and intransigence.

The sooner this faux polity is smashed and its denizens uprooted and scattered to the four winds of neighboring countries, the better.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Just cutious. While Israel has made peace with both Egypt & Jordan, who have the Palestinians ever made peace with?

The Palestinians aren't at war with anyone.

One day, you say "The war isn't over yet".

Another day, you say "The Palestinians aren't at war with anyone."

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Yer makin' everybody dizzy.

Palestinian civilians are attacked by Israel's military.

Can you call that a war?

 

[Kondor3]

The Palestinians aren't at war with anyone.

One day, you say "The war isn't over yet".

Another day, you say "The Palestinians aren't at war with anyone."

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Yer makin' everybody dizzy.

Palestinian civilians are attacked by Israel's military.

Can you call that a war?

This is not a question of the definition of War.

This is a question of your own inconsistency.

One day you say the war isn't over yet.

One day you say that the Palestinians are not at war.

Which is it?

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Be consistent.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Under the Ottomans they were Syrians, or Egyptian migrants. They considered themselves Syrians, which is what they still are, the few of those that have roots going back a couple of centuries, and those are largely form the hill country, not the plains; it was easier to dodge the Ottoman tax collectors and military drafts in the hills than elsewhere.

Of course none of that means anything. The law is simple and clear.

All Turkish citizens who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine are Palestinian citizens.

How long they had lived there doesn't matter. Their religion doesn't matter. Where they came from Doesn't matter. What they called themselves doesn't matter.

This whole discussion is pointless.

What law are you talking about? Don't you mean treaty?


What were they before they were Turkish citizens?

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.
--------------------
Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

---------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

 

[P F Tinmore]

What law are you talking about? Don't you mean treaty?


What were they before they were Turkish citizens?

People.

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine, and they MUST BY INTERNATIONAL LAW be given the chance of self determination. The law does not say under the yoke of Islamic oppression or as muslim slaves.

Yet you constantly deny the Jews these rights while trying to enforce them for arab muslim illegal immigrants who arrived in Palestine after 1921 when that treaty was signed

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine,

Did they normally reside in Palestine at the time it was detached from turkey?

All Turkish citizens who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine are Palestinian citizens.

 

[P F Tinmore]

One day, you say "The war isn't over yet".

Another day, you say "The Palestinians aren't at war with anyone."

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Yer makin' everybody dizzy.

Palestinian civilians are attacked by Israel's military.

Can you call that a war?

This is not a question of the definition of War.

This is a question of your own inconsistency.

One day you say the war isn't over yet.

One day you say that the Palestinians are not at war.

Which is it?

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Be consistent.

A peace treaty cannot be signed with Israel until after the war and occupation ends.

There must be a surrender or armistice before a treaty can be valid. Treaties signed by people under occupation are not considered valid.

 

[Kondor3]

Palestinian civilians are attacked by Israel's military.

Can you call that a war?

This is not a question of the definition of War.

This is a question of your own inconsistency.

One day you say the war isn't over yet.

One day you say that the Palestinians are not at war.

Which is it?

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Be consistent.

A peace treaty cannot be signed with Israel until after the war and occupation ends.

There must be a surrender or armistice before a treaty can be valid. Treaties signed by people under occupation are not considered valid.

That's not the question.

The question is your inconsistency.

 

[P F Tinmore]

This is not a question of the definition of War.

This is a question of your own inconsistency.

One day you say the war isn't over yet.

One day you say that the Palestinians are not at war.

Which is it?

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Be consistent.

A peace treaty cannot be signed with Israel until after the war and occupation ends.

There must be a surrender or armistice before a treaty can be valid. Treaties signed by people under occupation are not considered valid.

That's not the question.

The question is your inconsistency.

The original question was: "who have the Palestinians ever made peace with?"

Palestine is at war with nobody except the occupation. That is Israel's war. The Palestinians cannot end it.

People under occupation cannot sign a valid peace agreement because it is considered to be coerced. The occupation must end first.

 

[toastman]

Of course none of that means anything. The law is simple and clear.

All Turkish citizens who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine are Palestinian citizens.

How long they had lived there doesn't matter. Their religion doesn't matter. Where they came from Doesn't matter. What they called themselves doesn't matter.

This whole discussion is pointless.

What law are you talking about? Don't you mean treaty?


What were they before they were Turkish citizens?

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.
--------------------
Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

---------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

What state was dissolved and what new state was established?

 

[toastman]

This is not a question of the definition of War.

This is a question of your own inconsistency.

One day you say the war isn't over yet.

One day you say that the Palestinians are not at war.

Which is it?

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Be consistent.

A peace treaty cannot be signed with Israel until after the war and occupation ends.

There must be a surrender or armistice before a treaty can be valid. Treaties signed by people under occupation are not considered valid.

That's not the question.

The question is your inconsistency.

You can't argue with someone like Tinmore who thinks he knows everything but knows nothing. He's living on an alternate planet.
Even when you prove Tinmore wrong with indisputable evidence, he still claims to be right. He has some sort of God complex

 

[P F Tinmore]

What law are you talking about? Don't you mean treaty?


What were they before they were Turkish citizens?

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.
--------------------
Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

---------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

What state was dissolved and what new state was established?

The Ottoman Empire was dissolved. All of the territories broken off were considered successor states.

 

[MJB12741]

I agree with you that Israel must end the occupation. The problem is where can the Palestinian squatters go when not a single surrounding Arab country will grant them a right of return back to their native homelands?

Palestinian civilians are attacked by Israel's military.

Can you call that a war?

This is not a question of the definition of War.

This is a question of your own inconsistency.

One day you say the war isn't over yet.

One day you say that the Palestinians are not at war.

Which is it?

Pick one.

And stick with it.

Be consistent.

A peace treaty cannot be signed with Israel until after the war and occupation ends.

There must be a surrender or armistice before a treaty can be valid. Treaties signed by people under occupation are not considered valid.

 

[toastman]

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.
--------------------
Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

---------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

What state was dissolved and what new state was established?

The Ottoman Empire was dissolved. All of the territories broken off were considered successor states.

The Ottoman EMPIRE (key word is Empire) was not a state and you didnt answer my question.
What was the successor state??? The treaty of Lausanne does not mention Palestine or Palestinians..
Your logic is extremely flawed..

 

[aris2chat]

"Self determination"?

That is exactly what the Jews of Old Palestine exercised for themselves in 1948...

They took it upon themselves to determine their own future...

By carving off a slice of Old Palestine and declaring a Nation-State of their own...

Had the Palestinians had the brains to do the same thing, the same day, in connection with those areas of Old Palestine NOT claimed-by or NOT controlled-by the Jews, and held their fire, and convinced their Muslim-Arab neighbors not to interfere, the Muslim-Arabs of Rump Palestine have long-since had a viable State of their own, and would not be reduced to the sorry state of affairs in which we see them now...

These same dullard Palestinians had several other opportunities, beyond 1948-1949, to make good on aspirations for a Nation-State of their own, which would have at least given them most of the West Bank and Gaza, but, characteristically, they pissed-away those opportunities as well, until the Israelis reached a state where they saw no further point in attempting to negotiate in-earnest with these idiots.

Idiots who continue to piss and moan over the division of Old Palestine 66 years ago, out of sheer impotency, given that they have repeatedly missed chances to establish a Nation-State of their own, and given that their own behaviors over the decades have eroded their position and prospects to the point where former opportunities to establish a viable Nation-State of their own have now evaporated.

Idiots with nothing left to do but (1) continue the violence with zero prospect of affecting the outcome, and continuing to die, pointlessly, in large numbers, or (2) pack up and move to a better place and start a new life, or (3) continue piss and moan and whine like old women.

"Palestine" is a failed nation-state wannabe, representing a rag-tag and diverse slapped-together collective of old tribal types and much more recently-arrived immigrant worker-bees and indigents, with a modern and artificially-contrived common identity as phony as a three-dollar bill, and a leadership and militant following more obnoxious, barbaric, bloodthirsty, savage and Neanderthal -like in their outward manifestations than we can readily identify and see elsewhere. Nature has de-selected them, through their own idiocy and intransigence.

The sooner this faux polity is smashed and its denizens uprooted and scattered to the four winds of neighboring countries, the better.

But they want to deny Israel/jews that right.
Arabs denied the palestinians that right.
certainly egypt and jordan didn't give them that right, they jordan did offer them citizenship.
Oslo was supposed to be the first step but that failed. PA turned into a welfare state and (w)could not reciprocate move for move with Israel. Arafat and Abbas have both denied the palestinians that right by not making peace with Israel.

 

[Hossfly]

People.

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine, and they MUST BY INTERNATIONAL LAW be given the chance of self determination. The law does not say under the yoke of Islamic oppression or as muslim slaves.

Yet you constantly deny the Jews these rights while trying to enforce them for arab muslim illegal immigrants who arrived in Palestine after 1921 when that treaty was signed

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine,

Did they normally reside in Palestine at the time it was detached from turkey?

All Turkish citizens who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine are Palestinian citizens.

Palestinian = Plishtim Verstehen Sie Nichts?

 

[Roudy]

Just cutious. While Israel has made peace with both Egypt & Jordan, who have the Palestinians ever made peace with?

Go ahead then refute it with links from reputable sources, you can start with Jordan and Egypt that have treaties with Israel setting out mutually agreed borders

The Palestinians aren't at war with anyone.

Tinmore, are you trying to be a comedian? Either that or you're fookin' crazy.

Hamas' charter, and the statements of their leaders are filled with declarations of war and desire to destroy Israel.

 

[aris2chat]

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine, and they MUST BY INTERNATIONAL LAW be given the chance of self determination. The law does not say under the yoke of Islamic oppression or as muslim slaves.

Yet you constantly deny the Jews these rights while trying to enforce them for arab muslim illegal immigrants who arrived in Palestine after 1921 when that treaty was signed

Did they normally reside in Palestine at the time it was detached from turkey?

All Turkish citizens who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine are Palestinian citizens.

Palestinian = Plishtim Verstehen Sie Nichts?

Tinman misses the fact that the arab population more than doubled in a short time due to arabs from around the region seeking jobs. They did not reside in the palestinian territory even if they did come from other areas that had been Ottoman.

All those people did not reside in palestine territory when it was detached from turkey.
Half the people stayed and did not flee when arabs told them to or when fighting started and they panicked, letting arab states to (conquer) occupy what could have been their state.

A larger number of jews that lived in the middle east were forced to leave with what they could carry. Most of them found refuge in Israel. Population trade.

I expect the jewish refugees lost more of monetary value than those palestinians that left Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.
--------------------
Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

---------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

What state was dissolved and what new state was established?

The Ottoman Empire was dissolved. All of the territories broken off were considered successor states.

WRONG AGAIN tinman, if that was the case then Turkey would no longer exist. What happened was the allies told the axis that they were to pay reparations in land and money. This meant that many mandates were set up around the world for land won in war from the axis powers. The LoN managed these lands through other nations until such a time as the inhabitants could show that they were able to govern themselves. The first new nation to do so was Jordan followed by Israel and Syria.
There was no state of Ottoman to be dissolved, it was the Empire that ceased to exist and the inhabitants of the Empire were ruled by proxy. The arab league refused to allow the Palestinians to declare independence, your outside interference you are so vocal about, until after the cut off date for the declaration. This led to them being persona non gratis until 1988 when they declared within the confines of the UN partition plan, which means they now m=need to negotiate peace and mutually agreed borders as set out in the partition plan and UN resolutions. ( they have signed to say they will abide by the UN's resolutions so now they are up the creek )

Try harder next time and you might just get something right

 

[Phoenall]

People.

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine, and they MUST BY INTERNATIONAL LAW be given the chance of self determination. The law does not say under the yoke of Islamic oppression or as muslim slaves.

Yet you constantly deny the Jews these rights while trying to enforce them for arab muslim illegal immigrants who arrived in Palestine after 1921 when that treaty was signed

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine,

Did they normally reside in Palestine at the time it was detached from turkey?

All Turkish citizens who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine are Palestinian citizens.

Care to produce the treaties that say these words then as proof that the people became Palestinians and the nation Palestine. Making Syria, Iraq and Jordan illegal by the way.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So the same must apply to the Jews that arrived in Palestine, and they MUST BY INTERNATIONAL LAW be given the chance of self determination. The law does not say under the yoke of Islamic oppression or as muslim slaves.

Yet you constantly deny the Jews these rights while trying to enforce them for arab muslim illegal immigrants who arrived in Palestine after 1921 when that treaty was signed

Did they normally reside in Palestine at the time it was detached from turkey?

All Turkish citizens who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine are Palestinian citizens.

Care to produce the treaties that say these words then as proof that the people became Palestinians and the nation Palestine. Making Syria, Iraq and Jordan illegal by the way.

I already did. You need to keep up.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/9278316-post2044.html