Who Are The Palestinains?

[amity1844]

And Israel's problems are also the result of its bad choices in 1948 and 1967 and 1982 and Intifada I and Intifada II, etc.

There's no point in trying to establish "who started it." Common sense would tell any 21st century person that no one can just walk into someone else's land and try to take over without serious resistance! And this was going on before Israel was even established.

Israeli artist Nissan Rilov, 1936:
"In one day, in order to start building [our homes] on this land, with bulldozers that existed then, primitive bulldozers unlike the ones that exist now, and with tractors, we destroyed the villages and kicked out all the Arabs out, and I remember something that has always struck me. It was how the children and the women threw themselves in front of the tractors and refused to leave. There was a strong resistance of the Palestinians against the destruction of their villages, and that had really touched me."

 

[Billo_Really]

And Israel's problems are also the result of its bad choices in 1948 and 1967 and 1982 and Intifada I and Intifada II, etc.

There's no point in trying to establish "who started it." Common sense would tell any 21st century person that no one can just walk into someone else's land and try to take over without serious resistance! And this was going on before Israel was even established.

Israeli artist Nissan Rilov, 1936:
"In one day, in order to start building [our homes] on this land, with bulldozers that existed then, primitive bulldozers unlike the ones that exist now, and with tractors, we destroyed the villages and kicked out all the Arabs out, and I remember something that has always struck me. It was how the children and the women threw themselves in front of the tractors and refused to leave. There was a strong resistance of the Palestinians against the destruction of their villages, and that had really touched me."

It's also worth noting that before the Zionist migration around the turn of the century, Palestinian-Arabs and Palestinian-Jews lived in relative peace for generations with no major incidents of violence.

I keep telling people, you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.


"Welcome to USMB!"

 

[MJB12741]

Yes isn't it just awful how those Zionists in Israel bulldozed Palestinian terrorist squatter's homes filled with weapons & explosives to kill Israeli's?

And Israel's problems are also the result of its bad choices in 1948 and 1967 and 1982 and Intifada I and Intifada II, etc.

There's no point in trying to establish "who started it." Common sense would tell any 21st century person that no one can just walk into someone else's land and try to take over without serious resistance! And this was going on before Israel was even established.

Israeli artist Nissan Rilov, 1936:
"In one day, in order to start building [our homes] on this land, with bulldozers that existed then, primitive bulldozers unlike the ones that exist now, and with tractors, we destroyed the villages and kicked out all the Arabs out, and I remember something that has always struck me. It was how the children and the women threw themselves in front of the tractors and refused to leave. There was a strong resistance of the Palestinians against the destruction of their villages, and that had really touched me."

 

[amity1844]

Who are the Palestinian terrorist squatters?

 

[Lipush]

And Israel's problems are also the result of its bad choices in 1948 and 1967 and 1982 and Intifada I and Intifada II, etc.

There's no point in trying to establish "who started it." Common sense would tell any 21st century person that no one can just walk into someone else's land and try to take over without serious resistance! And this was going on before Israel was even established.

Israeli artist Nissan Rilov, 1936:
"In one day, in order to start building [our homes] on this land, with bulldozers that existed then, primitive bulldozers unlike the ones that exist now, and with tractors, we destroyed the villages and kicked out all the Arabs out, and I remember something that has always struck me. It was how the children and the women threw themselves in front of the tractors and refused to leave. There was a strong resistance of the Palestinians against the destruction of their villages, and that had really touched me."

It's also worth noting that before the Zionist migration around the turn of the century, Palestinian-Arabs and Palestinian-Jews lived in relative peace for generations with no major incidents of violence.

I keep telling people, you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.


"Welcome to USMB!"

Bullshit.

That's the propaganda and lies of Anti-Zionists and Jew haters.

Before the migration of "Zionists" the Arabs and Jews clashed and fought over the fact that they believed that Jews shouldn't be here, even if they were the natives to begin with.

Jews were the natives in Hebron, till they were expelled by the Arabs, which in their rudness, dared to call today's Jews "illegal settlers".

And people like you swallow that lie and bark like good lil puppies.

We all know better.

 

[Lipush]

Who are the Palestinian terrorist squatters?

Many.

Those of the Negev, are a classic example.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

You make this mistake quite frequently.

I keep telling people, you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

(OBSERVATION)

World English Dictionary
vested interest

— n
1. property law an existing and disposable right to the immediate or future possession and enjoyment of property​

World English Dictionary
human rights

— pl n
the rights of individuals to liberty, justice, etc​

Resolution 61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 2

Indigenous peoples and individuals are free and equal to all other peoples and individuals and have the right to be free from any kind of discrimination, in the exercise of their rights, in particular that based on their indigenous origin or identity​

(COMMENT)

First, you confuse the "vested Interest" indigenous population with the "human rights" in common with all people.

Second, you forget that all people have the same rights. Longevity as a resident (indigenous people) incurs no special rights over newer residences.

While there is some truth that "you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there" --- it is not always true. It depends on the status of the resident. Your analogy is not quite right. Obviously, if I move into a neighborhood and buy property, I have more of a vested interest in the neighborhood than the renters that have been there for decades.

With all other things being equal --- Everyone has the same "rights." And in exercising these rights, have the same recognition - without regard to longevity in residence.

However, if I recently moved in and invested in the development of the land culturally, economically, socially, financially, then I might actually have a greater vested interest than a long time resident.

This requires an evaluation on a case-by-case basis.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

And Israel's problems are also the result of its bad choices in 1948 and 1967 and 1982 and Intifada I and Intifada II, etc.

There's no point in trying to establish "who started it."...

Sure there is.

There is passive resistance, and there is forceful resistance.

There is forceful resistance with a realistic prospect of success, and there is forceful resistance long past the point where the tiny amount of force that you can bring to bear, has any realistic prospect of affecting the outcome.

With the advent of Intifada I, the Palestinians crossed the line into the realm of forceful resistance under conditions in which they have no realistic prospect of such force actually affecting the outcome in a manner desirable to them.

Dumb-asses.

Then again, they have a long history of stupid decisions, so, not very surprising.

...Common sense would tell any 21st century person that no one can just walk into someone else's land and try to take over without serious resistance!...

True.

That's why the League of Nations proposed to divide Greater Old Palestine into two parts:

Why are the Arabs still squatting on Jewish land?

...And this was going on before Israel was even established...

Yes. Arabs began killing Jews, long before Israel was established, because they were growing alarmed at how much land the Jews were acquiring.

"...Israeli artist Nissan Rilov, 1936..."

There are always Quislings and weaklings and suicidal types who take sides with the Other Guy rather than their own People. MEH.

===============================

So much for Newcomer Neutrality...

Anybody got a sock I can borrow for a puppet show later today? ;-)

 

[Vigilante]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Billo_Really, et al,

You make this mistake quite frequently.

I keep telling people, you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

(OBSERVATION)

World English Dictionary
vested interest

— n
1. property law an existing and disposable right to the immediate or future possession and enjoyment of property​

World English Dictionary
human rights

— pl n
the rights of individuals to liberty, justice, etc​

Resolution 61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 2

Indigenous peoples and individuals are free and equal to all other peoples and individuals and have the right to be free from any kind of discrimination, in the exercise of their rights, in particular that based on their indigenous origin or identity​

(COMMENT)

First, you confuse the "vested Interest" indigenous population with the "human rights" in common with all people.

Second, you forget that all people have the same rights. Longevity as a resident (indigenous people) incurs no special rights over newer residences.

While there is some truth that "you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there" --- it is not always true. It depends on the status of the resident. Your analogy is not quite right. Obviously, if I move into a neighborhood and buy property, I have more of a vested interest in the neighborhood than the renters that have been there for decades.

With all other things being equal --- Everyone has the same "rights." And in exercising these rights, have the same recognition - without regard to longevity in residence.

However, if I recently moved in and invested in the development of the land culturally, economically, socially, financially, then I might actually have a greater vested interest than a long time resident.

This requires an evaluation on a case-by-case basis.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks for the link.
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf

Article 26

1. Indigenous peoples have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired.

2. Indigenous peoples have the right to own, use, develop and control the lands, territories and resources that they possess by reason of traditional ownership or other traditional occupation or use, as well as those which they have otherwise acquired.

3. States shall give legal recognition and protection to these lands, territories and resources. Such recognition shall be conducted with due respect to the customs, traditions and land tenure systems of the indigenous peoples concerned.

If you consider Palestinians to be the indigenous population of a state called Israel, then Israel is in violation of this provision. You will also see that Israel is in violation of articles 1 through 10 and others.

Another view of Israel would be a colonial project where these rights would apply to the Palestinians.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

Note the similar rights expressed in both of these.

Then there are rights specifically for Palestine.

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

2. Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return;

3. Emphasizes that full respect for and the realization of these inalienable rights of the Palestinian people are indispensable for the solution of the question of Palestine;

In any case, the Palestinians have the legal and moral high ground.

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Roudy]

I just joined this forum because it seems to be the only US forum on the Israel/Palestine issues I want to discuss. However, reviewing some of the topic postings, I am a little disappointed. I really want to have a constructive discussion and I hope to find that here. I haven't read any of the 1500+ posts this topic has generated, so just responding to the original post. The article cited is clearly dismissive in tone, not a serious critical essay. I hope we can consider the quality of the source before accepting it. There is very little to no useful information in this one.

When humanity first came out of Africa, it is likely we got to Palestine very quickly, given its location at the crossroads of the world, so predictably some of the very oldest human fossils outside of Africa itself are found in Palestine. The land of Palestine has been settled from that time forward and ALL of those people are by definition Palestinians. Some of you may have found an interest in the exciting new field of genetic history. When genetic studies were done on Israeli Jews and Arab Palestinians, it was discovered that they are .... practically identical genetically, around 80% shared haplotypes. This is because when the Romans expelled the Jews from Israel/Palestine back in the year 70, they didn't actually expel most Jews, who instead left the cities and went into the countryside, where they founded new synagogues and churches and remain to this day.... the Palestinians. Later migrations into and out of Palestine, especially the Arabs and Crusaders, who left a lot of genetic material behind, and intermarriage of Jews with other groups during the diaspora account for the remaining 20%, but it turns out Jews and Palestinians are essentially the same people. The land of Palestine was not a vacuum when Herzl first came up with the bright idea of settling it (I hope noone on this forum believes that!). It has been continuously settled all along, from earliest human history. That is who the Palestinians are. They are the indigenous people of Palestine, including Canaanite, Phoenician, Jewish, Assyrian, Arab, European, all in one melting pot.

If we stop believing the pat answers, rhetoric, and polemics and start serious analysis, I think we will discover this problem isn't really so difficult to solve as it is often portrayed. If anyone wants specific sources on Palestinian history, i.e., land and people, let me know, I got a ton dating from Roman times, medieval times, and more recently. I come bearing an olive branch and if we can't have a thoughtful discussion I will shake the dust off.

Yup, sounds like a propagandist repeating the same old bullshit propaganda and trying to replace Arabs with Jews.

Palestinians are recent 20th century invaders from neighboring Arab lands. The name Palestinian was referred to Jews of the region only, until Arafat the terrorist thief hijacked it in 1967. If anything, they are genetically and culturally identical to their neighboring Arab brethren, in fact THEY ARE THE SAME. To say that Palestinians and Jews are the same is as stupid, false, and meaningless as saying the ENTIRE ARAB WORLD and Jews are the same.

 

[aris2chat]

Billo_Really, et al,

You make this mistake quite frequently.

I keep telling people, you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

(OBSERVATION)

World English Dictionary
vested interest

— n
1. property law an existing and disposable right to the immediate or future possession and enjoyment of property​

World English Dictionary
human rights

— pl n
the rights of individuals to liberty, justice, etc​

Resolution 61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 2

Indigenous peoples and individuals are free and equal to all other peoples and individuals and have the right to be free from any kind of discrimination, in the exercise of their rights, in particular that based on their indigenous origin or identity​

(COMMENT)

First, you confuse the "vested Interest" indigenous population with the "human rights" in common with all people.

Second, you forget that all people have the same rights. Longevity as a resident (indigenous people) incurs no special rights over newer residences.

While there is some truth that "you cannot move into a new neighborhood and automatically have more rights than the people already living there" --- it is not always true. It depends on the status of the resident. Your analogy is not quite right. Obviously, if I move into a neighborhood and buy property, I have more of a vested interest in the neighborhood than the renters that have been there for decades.

With all other things being equal --- Everyone has the same "rights." And in exercising these rights, have the same recognition - without regard to longevity in residence.

However, if I recently moved in and invested in the development of the land culturally, economically, socially, financially, then I might actually have a greater vested interest than a long time resident.

This requires an evaluation on a case-by-case basis.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks for the link.
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf



If you consider Palestinians to be the indigenous population of a state called Israel, then Israel is in violation of this provision. You will also see that Israel is in violation of articles 1 through 10 and others.

Another view of Israel would be a colonial project where these rights would apply to the Palestinians.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

Note the similar rights expressed in both of these.

Then there are rights specifically for Palestine.

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

2. Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return;

3. Emphasizes that full respect for and the realization of these inalienable rights of the Palestinian people are indispensable for the solution of the question of Palestine;

In any case, the Palestinians have the legal and moral high ground.

Palestinians left because they did not want to be part of an Israeli state, among other reason. Some applied for reunification programs, about 1000 a year, till Oslo, returned to Israel and became citizens.
Israel has on many talks offered to take in 100,000 of the original refugees, over a period of time. Those born out side of Israel or that were in any way part of terrorism or violence against Israel would be be allowed. The rest of the palestinians would have to be taken in by other countries or find a place in a state of palestine when fully establish.

Israel had legal and moral right to exist as well.............and a right to pray at the wall or on the mount. Jews should have a right to buy land and live or establish a business in a palestinian state, or anywhere else.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, brother!

In any case, the Palestinians have the legal and moral high ground.

(COMMENT)

If there is one piece of ground the Arab-Palestinian will unlikely ever hold sovereignty over it the legal and moral high ground.

First, let me say that the Israelis (Jewish State of Israel) has not always been in the "right" - and hasn't always - acted in good faith - and hasn't always exhibited the qualities of an exemplary nation. I have many objections to the way they have conducted themselves during the course of the continuing struggle in the Middle East.

OK, having said that --- you could mark Israel's missteps, mistakes, and out-right dumb moves on a Whiteboard with a black, fine tip, Expo Marker. There might be quite a few marks. On the other hand, and by way of comparison, to do the same for the Arab and Arab-Palestinians, you'd need run the Whiteboard down to the closest Earl Scheib Paint & Body Store Location and send the whole Whiteboard in for a coating of nanotech-based Blacker-than-Black. A paint roller just wouldn't do it justice.

13. In conclusion, the Arab Higher Committee Delegation wishes to stress the following:

(a) The Arabs of Palestine will never recognise the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

(b) The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense.

(c) It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission.

(d) The United Nations or its Commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

(e) The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

(f) The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

(g) The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.

The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.​

I beg to remain, etc.
/s/ Isa Nakhleh
Representative of the
Arab Higher Committee​

Remembering:

States shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered,​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

...the Palestinians have the legal and moral high ground.

The Palestinians lost any scrap of high moral ground that they once might have held, the very moment that they killed Israeli athletes at the Munich Games, or pushed that old man in the wheelchair overboard on the Achille Lauro, or sent suicide bombers into Israel to kill Jewish civilians on buses and at restaurants.

The bottom-feeding, under-performing, scum-sucking Palestinian Hamas and Fatah types, holding the high moral ground?

Bullshit.

 

[MJB12741]

Those Zionists sure blew it for themselves over any moral rights issue for their treatment of the Palestinians. Peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the squatters can remein in Israel to kill Israeli's. Disgusting.

 

[Vigilante]

 

[MJB12741]

Whoa now! Let us not condemn Yassar Arafat. He was one the world's all time greatest leaders. He took his Palestinians from the toilet to the sewer, got them massacred over & over again by their own Arab brothers, embezzeled their money, then died from AIDS leaving his Palestinians living in ignorance & poverty with no hope for a Palestinian State. And that is truly worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize.

 

[Kondor3]

Not to mention being one scuzzy, ugly mutherphukker...

Whoa now! Let us not condemn Yassar Arafat. He was one the world's all time greatest leaders. He took his Palestinians from the toilet to the sewer, got them massacred over & over again by their own Arab brothers, embezzeled their money, then died from AIDS leaving his Palestinians living in ignorance & poverty with no hope for a Palestinian State. And that is truly worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize.

 

[Vigilante]

Whoa now! Let us not condemn Yassar Arafat. He was one the world's all time greatest leaders. He took his Palestinians from the toilet to the sewer, got them massacred over & over again by their own Arab brothers, embezzeled their money, then died from AIDS leaving his Palestinians living in ignorance & poverty with no hope for a Palestinian State. And that is truly worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize.[/]

[/QUOTE]

Well, seems little children know about that "PEACE PRIZE"!