Who Pays the Taxes? Who Should?

[Skull Pilot]

But I've shown you that they do in fact pay federal taxes. Did you ignore that part? Did it not make sense? I am not sure why you are refusing to understand this.

Remember before when I said you are unable to have a rational discussion? This is what I was talking about. When you are presented with facts, that you either refused to read of didn't have any disagreement with, you still revert back to your original statement which is blatantly false.

So whats the problem here with what we're discussing? Do you just not want to listen to the facts or do you not understand what they mean?

THEY PAY NO FEDERAL INCOME TAXES.

How many times do you you have to hear that explanation before it penetrates that thick ovine skull?

LOL, do you want me to link you to every instance on this site of your fellow idiots saying they "pay no taxes". There is a huge difference between that and paying no federal income taxes, which greatly waters down the argument about having "no skin in the game".

How many times do I need to correct you idiots before it penetrates your thick skulls?

Since the only federal tax that is designed to allow for deductions and bullshit tax credits is the income tax, to assume that when someone says one pays no taxes that all taxes and not just income taxes are the subject is moronic.

If income is going to be taxed then ALL income should be taxed and furthermore ALL income regardless of the source should be taxed at the same rate.

 

[Foxfyre]

Now we can continue to allow Congress, the President, and the bureaucracy to continue spending our money and borrowing in our name at the current rate, and think that is okay if we can just make those earning good money or selling houses for a good profit pay a lot more on their taxes.

But the fact is, taxing those earning good money and liquidating capital gains more, will discourage both from taking risk and investing their money in ways that helps the rest of us to make money.

And sooner or later, we all will have to pay the piper for the debt that continues to accrue. So would you prefer to accrue a national debt at the rate it is now accruing rather than accept a fair share of the burden such as a flat tax? Leaving the system as it currently is has not been popular in our straw poll.

Let's see if we can put this into better perspective.

Do you know that the national debt passed the 16 Trillion---that's trillion with a T--mark during the Republican Convention this year? Does anybody understand how much money that is?

How long does it take you to earn $50,000? How long to pay $50,000 in taxes?

Well, 16 Trillion = $50,000 spent every single second for the last 100 years. And that include all the many years of the last 100 years when the growth of the national debt was very slow.

$50,000 every single second.

Acceptable?

Or does that concern anybody?

I'm concerned about the debt, but frankly, I don't see how giving the rich 5 Trillion in new tax cuts is going to help all that much.

And killing Big Bird's 440 million dollar subsidy is a drop in the bucket.

To put it in perspective, 16 Trillion in debt is about the GDP of the country. At the end of WWII, the national debt was 125% of GDP. By 1952, we got the debt down to 50% of GDP. Part of it was due to growth, but part of it was that we taxed the wealth at an appropriate rate.

The Debt is only part of the problem. The reason why GDP isn't growing is because we have annual trade deficits of 500 Billion a year. And this has been the case since 1976, about the same time the national debt started growing out of control.

Well Big Bird is safe. If PBS goes belly up because it loses its government subsidy, yesterday Mark Levin made a good faith offer to buy Big Bird and Sesame Street that generates millions for its owners. And yes, that one subsidy is a drop in the bucket, but there are thousands upon thousands of drops like that in the bucket.

Trade deficits do not add to the debt. The ONLY thing that adds to the debt is spending more than we take in. There is no safe debt-to-GDP ratio. The only 'safe' ratio is certaintythat the country has ability to pay off the debt. As WWII ended, our economy was booming and everybody knew that the war expenditures were temporary and the debt would be paid off in a growing economy, which it was. The risks were low and acceptable for those with money to put it to work in the economy and we quickly grew ourselves out of our war debt.

That is not the case today. Trillion+ deficits are projected as far as the eye can see. We are spending money we don't have at . The baby boomers turned 65 last year which will very soon begin severely straining our already over strained Social Security and Medicare funds requiring more and more infusion of dollars into those, And as our credit rating continues to erode, the interest payments on the debt will continue to balloon; the Fed will have to print more and more money and the double digit inflation and double digit interest rates we saw in the 70's are inevitable if we don't turn it around now.


If you think the rich are going to sit still and allow $7 trillion to be confiscated from them, you are living in a dream world. The rich are already sheltering trillions and trillions of what they have. They will not invest as much as they already do if we make it even more risky to do so. So going after them for our shortfall is certain to dry up a lot of jobs and investment opportunity that exists now. They already have enough to retire comfortably. And if they choose to do that rather than risk and have what they have confiscated, they will likely do that. Or go elsewhere to more business friendly climes. And then we are all screwed.

 

[JoeB131]

Well Big Bird is safe. If PBS goes belly up because it loses its government subsidy, yesterday Mark Levin made a good faith offer to buy Big Bird and Sesame Street that generates millions for its owners. And yes, that one subsidy is a drop in the bucket, but there are thousands upon thousands of drops like that in the bucket..

The last thing I want is Sesame Street run for a profit by a bottom feeder like Levin. It would probably end up looking like this.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adtYk1ovvEc]Robot Chicken: Gordon the Gecko - YouTube[/ame]

If you think the rich are going to sit still and allow $7 trillion to be confiscated from them, you are living in a dream world. The rich are already sheltering trillions and trillions of what they have. They will not invest as much as they already do if we make it even more risky to do so. So going after them for our shortfall is certain to dry up a lot of jobs and investment opportunity that exists now. They already have enough to retire comfortably. And if they choose to do that rather than risk and have what they have confiscated, they will likely do that. Or go elsewhere to more business friendly climes. And then we are all screwed.

Ask the Romanovs how well the rich do when the people stop putting up with their shit.

This country works better when the rich pay their fair share and we have a real middle class.

Obama's more likely to get us there than Romney is.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well Big Bird is safe. If PBS goes belly up because it loses its government subsidy, yesterday Mark Levin made a good faith offer to buy Big Bird and Sesame Street that generates millions for its owners. And yes, that one subsidy is a drop in the bucket, but there are thousands upon thousands of drops like that in the bucket..

The last thing I want is Sesame Street run for a profit by a bottom feeder like Levin. It would probably end up looking like this.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adtYk1ovvEc]Robot Chicken: Gordon the Gecko - YouTube[/ame]

If you think the rich are going to sit still and allow $7 trillion to be confiscated from them, you are living in a dream world. The rich are already sheltering trillions and trillions of what they have. They will not invest as much as they already do if we make it even more risky to do so. So going after them for our shortfall is certain to dry up a lot of jobs and investment opportunity that exists now. They already have enough to retire comfortably. And if they choose to do that rather than risk and have what they have confiscated, they will likely do that. Or go elsewhere to more business friendly climes. And then we are all screwed.

Ask the Romanovs how well the rich do when the people stop putting up with their shit.

This country works better when the rich pay their fair share and we have a real middle class.

Obama's more likely to get us there than Romney is.

If you think the owner's of Sesame Street are going to sell anybody that mega million dollar money making windfall, with or without government subsidy, I have a nice assortment of bridges to sell you.

 

[PredFan]

The Fair Tax

 

[Jackson]

Does anyone think folks are going to demand that their traxes be raised??

Hell No. Everyone but them should have to pay more taxes.

Also might me nice if that 49% who pay no Fed taxes had some skin in the game. After all they have no problem sucking up Welfare, tax breaks, EIC and any other freebie money they can glom onto.

Might be nice if they payed something into the kitty to run the country. They have no problem taking just a big problem supporting.

Zzzzz.

I'd take the time to respond to this and debunk everything you believe in, but we both know you have little interest in being rational.

Claudette is being rational. Everyone in this great nation should be paying taxes and have some interest in whether taxes should be raised or lowered. Everyone is benefitted by the roads, the national defense and the education of this country. Everyone should be contributing.
We should have a progressive tax system with the less income people paying a lower rate and the higher income people paying a higher rate, but everyone paying something. No one gets away with paying less than 10% of the AGI, no one pays more than 50% of their AGI.

 

[JoeB131]

If you think the owner's of Sesame Street are going to sell anybody that mega million dollar money making windfall, with or without government subsidy, I have a nice assortment of bridges to sell you.

The point is, the money making isn't the point. Educating the kids is.

You turn it into another business, you get the fifth incarnation of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as a 30 minute toy commerical.

It would cost a lot more than 440 million to get the schools to do what PBS already does. 440 million is a bargain.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The Fair Tax

Too complicated.

 

[AmyNation]

Does anyone think folks are going to demand that their traxes be raised??

Hell No. Everyone but them should have to pay more taxes.

Also might me nice if that 49% who pay no Fed taxes had some skin in the game. After all they have no problem sucking up Welfare, tax breaks, EIC and any other freebie money they can glom onto.

Might be nice if they payed something into the kitty to run the country. They have no problem taking just a big problem supporting.

Zzzzz.

I'd take the time to respond to this and debunk everything you believe in, but we both know you have little interest in being rational.

Claudette is being rational. Everyone in this great nation should be paying taxes and have some interest in whether taxes should be raised or lowered. Everyone is benefitted by the roads, the national defense and the education of this country. Everyone should be contributing.
We should have a progressive tax system with the less income people paying a lower rate and the higher income people paying a higher rate, but everyone paying something. No one gets away with paying less than 10% of the AGI.

Everyone pays taxes, and most people pay federal income tax.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Zzzzz.

I'd take the time to respond to this and debunk everything you believe in, but we both know you have little interest in being rational.

Claudette is being rational. Everyone in this great nation should be paying taxes and have some interest in whether taxes should be raised or lowered. Everyone is benefitted by the roads, the national defense and the education of this country. Everyone should be contributing.
We should have a progressive tax system with the less income people paying a lower rate and the higher income people paying a higher rate, but everyone paying something. No one gets away with paying less than 10% of the AGI.

Everyone pays taxes, and most people pay federal income tax.

everyone with an income should pay income tax.

 

[Foxfyre]

Zzzzz.

I'd take the time to respond to this and debunk everything you believe in, but we both know you have little interest in being rational.

Claudette is being rational. Everyone in this great nation should be paying taxes and have some interest in whether taxes should be raised or lowered. Everyone is benefitted by the roads, the national defense and the education of this country. Everyone should be contributing.
We should have a progressive tax system with the less income people paying a lower rate and the higher income people paying a higher rate, but everyone paying something. No one gets away with paying less than 10% of the AGI.

Everyone pays taxes, and most people pay federal income tax.

But 47%, a number that is steadily increasing, do not pay federal income tax, and another 25% or so pay very very little in federal income tax. These people therefore have no concern for how much in taxes the other 30% are paying and don't CARE if their income taxes are raised.....and raised....and raised just so the rest of the people don't have to be bothered with all that.

Perhaps you don't see a danger in that kind of tyranny of the majority.

Most thinking people really do see that as a danger of tyranny of the majority, however.

 

[AmyNation]

Claudette is being rational. Everyone in this great nation should be paying taxes and have some interest in whether taxes should be raised or lowered. Everyone is benefitted by the roads, the national defense and the education of this country. Everyone should be contributing.
We should have a progressive tax system with the less income people paying a lower rate and the higher income people paying a higher rate, but everyone paying something. No one gets away with paying less than 10% of the AGI.

Everyone pays taxes, and most people pay federal income tax.

everyone with an income should pay income tax.

They do. They simply get it back at the end of the year in the form of a refund.

 

[AmyNation]

Claudette is being rational. Everyone in this great nation should be paying taxes and have some interest in whether taxes should be raised or lowered. Everyone is benefitted by the roads, the national defense and the education of this country. Everyone should be contributing.
We should have a progressive tax system with the less income people paying a lower rate and the higher income people paying a higher rate, but everyone paying something. No one gets away with paying less than 10% of the AGI.

Everyone pays taxes, and most people pay federal income tax.

But 47%, a number that is steadily increasing, do not pay federal income tax, and another 25% or so pay very very little in federal income tax. These people therefore have no concern for how much in taxes the other 30% are paying and don't CARE if their income taxes are raised.....and raised....and raised just so the rest of the people don't have to be bothered with all that.

Perhaps you don't see a danger in that kind of tyranny of the majority.

Most thinking people really do see that as a danger of tyranny of the majority, however.

You are in favor of a flat tax, correct?

 

[Foxfyre]

Everyone pays taxes, and most people pay federal income tax.

But 47%, a number that is steadily increasing, do not pay federal income tax, and another 25% or so pay very very little in federal income tax. These people therefore have no concern for how much in taxes the other 30% are paying and don't CARE if their income taxes are raised.....and raised....and raised just so the rest of the people don't have to be bothered with all that.

Perhaps you don't see a danger in that kind of tyranny of the majority.

Most thinking people really do see that as a danger of tyranny of the majority, however.

You are in favor of a flat tax, correct?

Yup. The guy who makes $1,000 pays $100. The guy who makes $1 million dollars pays $100,000. But they both benefit or pay equally proportionately. It is the most fair and productive way.

 

[AmyNation]

But 47%, a number that is steadily increasing, do not pay federal income tax, and another 25% or so pay very very little in federal income tax. These people therefore have no concern for how much in taxes the other 30% are paying and don't CARE if their income taxes are raised.....and raised....and raised just so the rest of the people don't have to be bothered with all that.

Perhaps you don't see a danger in that kind of tyranny of the majority.

Most thinking people really do see that as a danger of tyranny of the majority, however.

You are in favor of a flat tax, correct?

Yup. The guy who makes $1,000 pays $100. The guy who makes $1 million dollars pays $100,000. But they both benefit or pay equally proportionately. It is the most fair and productive way.

It will never happen. At least not in the foreseeable future, and it's not because those darn poor people won't vote to raise their own taxes. I'd bet at least half the people on this board, many of the same ones calling for tax increases, get a refund check at the end of the year, they just won't admit it.

It's because both political parties use the tax code to manipulate the populous. They use fear of higher taxes Americans can't afford, and incentives of tax credits/loopholes to everyone from the multimillionaire to joe dirt working at Walmart. It is a power they have, and neither party is looking to give it up.

 

[AmyNation]

But 47%, a number that is steadily increasing, do not pay federal income tax, and another 25% or so pay very very little in federal income tax. These people therefore have no concern for how much in taxes the other 30% are paying and don't CARE if their income taxes are raised.....and raised....and raised just so the rest of the people don't have to be bothered with all that.

Perhaps you don't see a danger in that kind of tyranny of the majority.

Most thinking people really do see that as a danger of tyranny of the majority, however.

You are in favor of a flat tax, correct?

Yup. The guy who makes $1,000 pays $100. The guy who makes $1 million dollars pays $100,000. But they both benefit or pay equally proportionately. It is the most fair and productive way.

Btw, I support a flat tax on anyone living above the poverty line.

 

[tjvh]

Everyone pays taxes, and most people pay federal income tax.

everyone with an income should pay income tax.

They do. They simply get it back at the end of the year in the form of a refund.

If they get it all back in a refund how exactly is that paying? Too funny!

 

[Foxfyre]

everyone with an income should pay income tax.

They do. They simply get it back at the end of the year in the form of a refund.

If they get it all back in a refund how exactly is that paying? Too funny!

Perhaps you are not informed about the Earned Income Credit? I suggest you look it up. We who do pay taxes are paying a great deal of money to many Americans who pay no income taxes, and yes, it does go to them as a 'tax refund'. I've noticed the Obama administration has really stepped up advertisement of this program in recent weeks too. They are intending to buy this election any way they can do that.

 

[Foxfyre]

You are in favor of a flat tax, correct?

Yup. The guy who makes $1,000 pays $100. The guy who makes $1 million dollars pays $100,000. But they both benefit or pay equally proportionately. It is the most fair and productive way.

Btw, I support a flat tax on anyone living above the poverty line.

I think even those drawing welfare should pay a portion of their income too; otherwise we have people we pay to live here dictating how much in taxes we should pay when making the rest of us pay more will benefit them. Consider it a teaching and beneficial habit program.

You're right though. It will be really tough to persuade people that currently are paying little or no taxes that it is in their best interest that they do so. And the only way it will happen is for a reformer President to have enough of a reformer Congress to get it done. But I think the change would generate such a tremendous surge of economic growth to lift almost all boats that it would more than offset the reduction in spending power that some would experience when the new thing first goes in.

 

[AmyNation]

Both Romney and Obama are campaigning on taxes, both are saying "I'm going to lower yours and the other guy wants to raise them!".