Why A "Good Guy with a Gun" is Bullshit

[hadit]

Your premise is wrong at the most basic level. The correct mode of action for a CCW holder is to hold in place, and if the shooter tries to enter the area he controls, take him out.

Private CCW holders can be compared to a minefield, what you are hoping for is the active shooter doesn't expect armed resistance and the CCW holder can get some shots in before the active shooter realizes he is being confronted.

If you hold in place and you hear someone coming down a blind hallway, do you shout out and ask if they are the police, the shooter or another good guy? If it's the shooter, you're shit out of luck, aren't you? If it's the police they may not believe you are a good guy. They may think you're the shooter trying to save his sorry ass.

And if you hold in place but can hear the shooter actively killing people in another part of the building, what do you do? Your gun becomes a joke to the people who are dying.

So you should check YOUR premise for reality.

If you are a "good guy with a gun" and you see a cop, you immediately drop your weapon and put your hands up, immediately. That this escapes anyone is puzzling.

Announce your presence and inform the police that you are armed and place the firearm on the floor and back away from it with your arms extended.

Yes, that.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Take your time to use the pudding between your ears. I believe Australia has only had one large scale shooting spree so your question is disingenuous. France, England, Norway etc. has strict laws and it didn't stop theirs.

That's true re Norway, England etc,but by and large they are singular events. yours aren't.

Britain confiscated guns....even though they didn't have mass shootings either......and guess what...their gun crime rate did not change....it stayed the same....

disarming normal people does not effect gun murder or gun crime rates...in fact, their gun crime rate went up 4% last year.

What about disarming people who are not normal, like you? People obsessed with guns, like you and others who put their privilege of gun ownership about the lives and costs which daily impact American citizens, personally and vicariously by watching events unfold on the TV.

 

[2aguy]

So, your solution is to disarm the law abiding to stop the mass shootings....problem is your solution clearly won't work, but one has to be level headed to understand this.

Clearly being armed to the teeth doesn't work because you keep on having mass shootings/killings.

We had 2,

So, your solution is to disarm the law abiding to stop the mass shootings....problem is your solution clearly won't work, but one has to be level headed to understand this.

Clearly being armed to the teeth doesn't work because you keep on having mass shootings/killings.

Actually, you are wrong...as more Americans have carried guns for self defense our gun murder rate has gone down.....faster and more than Australia's has gone down, and we didn't confiscate guns...

Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States by John R. Lott, John E Whitley, Rebekah C. Riley :: SSRN

Initially the increase in permits was slow, growing from roughly 2.7 million permit holders in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007.

But the number of concealed handgun permits literally exploded during the Obama presidency.

For December 2011, the federal Government Accountability Office estimated that there were at least 8 million concealed handgun permits. By the June 2014, it was 11.1 million; in 2015, 12.8 million.

In other words, during the eight years from 1999 to 2007, the number of permits increased by about 240,000 per year. During the next four years, the number of permits surged by 850,000 per year.

Then from the end of 2011 to 2013 the yearly increase rose by 1,550,000. And during the last year the increase has continued to accelerate to 1,700,000. The rapid increase in concealed carry permits is also mirrored by the rapid increase in gun sales.

NICS background checks soared from 11.2 to 21 million between 2007 and 2014. The sale of guns accelerated further over the last two years -- averaging 14 million during 2008 to 2011 and over 20 million during 2012 and 2013.

The five states in 2013 that allowed concealed carry without a permit had much lower murder and violent crime rates than the five jurisdictions with the lowest permit rates. Indeed, the murder rate was 33 percent lower in the states not requiring permits. The violent crime rate was 32 percent lower.

(If Idaho and Montana are included in the list of states that allow carrying without permits, the results become stronger.) Murder and violent crime rates are also lower in the 25 states with the highest permit rates than the rest of the country. Of course, such a comparison is far too simplistic. Unforunately, despite their common use, simple cross-sectional comparisons can be very misleading.

There are many factors that influence crime, but it is often too difficult to account for them with purely cross-sectional comparisons. Looking at how crime rates vary before and after changes in a state’s permit rules allows one to account for the differences across states.

But an even better approach is to take advantage of the fact that different states 9 have adopted concealed handgun laws in different years and that they issue permits at different rates (see the Appendix for a large and growing peerreviewed literature on this point that shows letting law-abiding citizens carry guns reduces violent crime).

The approach combines following state crime rates over time across all the states with changes in the percent of the adult population with permits. Doing so consistently finds a very strong relationship between more permits and less violent crime (e.g., Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, University of Chicago Press 2010 and Lott, 2012).

----Between 2007 and 2014, murder rates fell from 5.6 to 4.23 (preliminary crime estimate) per 100,000 – a 25 percent drop in the murder rate. At the same time, that the percentage of the adult population with permits soared by 178 percent.

Overall violent crime also fell by the same percentage, 25 percent.3 After accounting for the per capita number of police and new prison admissions as well as demographics, this state level permit data suggests that each one percentage point increase in the percent of the adult population holding permits is roughly associated with a 25 percent drop in the murder rate.4

Since the latest state level crime data is only available through 2013, the 2011 and 2013 permit and murder data shows that those states that had the biggest increases in permits had the biggest percentage drop in murder rates. A 10 percent increase in the share of the adult population with permits reduces the murder rate by 1.4 percent.5

 

[hadit]

well since the three deadliest mass shootings in this country were in gun free zones there weren't any people with concealed weapons at those places were there?

And like I said my CC permit in no way obligates me to protect you or anyone else. I have it to protect my wife and myself. If you choose not to carry a defensive weapon then I will assume that it is your preference to have the cops protect you and I will honor your choice

Really? You can't own a gun in Orlando? Really? Wow, never knew that...

Don't have to worry about where I live. So you go right ahead, and have your armed-to-the-teeth society....fantastic place to live...NOT...

Isn't that the purpose and the beauty of freely being able to choose?

 

[2aguy]

The night club was a gun free zone Moron the shooting didn't happen all over the entire city of Orlando.

And if you don't live here what we do or don't do is none of your fucking business is it?

As is their right. And what about all the other non gun-free zones that have had mass shootings? And who's to say if somebody had been armed they would have done anything. The fact you live in a society where that is even a consideration says a lot. None of it good..

It's a free world I'll say what I like....Of course it's my business. well, just like Iraq and Afghanistan is none of your business, right?

There a very few of those......almost all mass shootings here have occurred in gun free zones........I posted a thread about it this week.......

all of the mass shootings have occurred in gun free zones...where normal, law abiding people are legally barred from having guns on them....

 

[2aguy]

Your premise is wrong at the most basic level. The correct mode of action for a CCW holder is to hold in place, and if the shooter tries to enter the area he controls, take him out.

Private CCW holders can be compared to a minefield, what you are hoping for is the active shooter doesn't expect armed resistance and the CCW holder can get some shots in before the active shooter realizes he is being confronted.

If you hold in place and you hear someone coming down a blind hallway, do you shout out and ask if they are the police, the shooter or another good guy? If it's the shooter, you're shit out of luck, aren't you? If it's the police they may not believe you are a good guy. They may think you're the shooter trying to save his sorry ass.

And if you hold in place but can hear the shooter actively killing people in another part of the building, what do you do? Your gun becomes a joke to the people who are dying.

So you should check YOUR premise for reality.

If you are a "good guy with a gun" and you see a cop, you immediately drop your weapon and put your hands up, immediately. That this escapes anyone is puzzling.

Announce your presence and inform the police that you are armed and place the firearm on the floor and back away from it with your arms extended.

Or holster it since the shooting is usually over long before the police arrive.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Your premise is wrong at the most basic level. The correct mode of action for a CCW holder is to hold in place, and if the shooter tries to enter the area he controls, take him out.

Private CCW holders can be compared to a minefield, what you are hoping for is the active shooter doesn't expect armed resistance and the CCW holder can get some shots in before the active shooter realizes he is being confronted.

If you hold in place and you hear someone coming down a blind hallway, do you shout out and ask if they are the police, the shooter or another good guy? If it's the shooter, you're shit out of luck, aren't you? If it's the police they may not believe you are a good guy. They may think you're the shooter trying to save his sorry ass.

And if you hold in place but can hear the shooter actively killing people in another part of the building, what do you do? Your gun becomes a joke to the people who are dying.

So you should check YOUR premise for reality.

If you are a "good guy with a gun" and you see a cop, you immediately drop your weapon and put your hands up, immediately. That this escapes anyone is puzzling.

Announce your presence and inform the police that you are armed and place the firearm on the floor and back away from it with your arms extended.

Yes, that.

LOL, that might happen, or before that may happen the presence of the gun may be the first thing even a trained officer will see, and respond with deadly force. A breach no matter how well prepared is a high adrenaline situation, and an active shooter situation is an unlocked and loader situation.

 

[2aguy]

So you'd just walk up to a guy and disarm him with your bare hands I guess.

Yeah CCW, or even open carry, really helped in the <insert mass shooting here>. It appears no matter how armed your society is, you still can't stop mass shootings.

Again..they occur in gun free zones...the ones where the shooter mistakenly picks a non gun free zone...they are shot by armed civilians..........and lives are saved.....

 

[2aguy]

So you'd just walk up to a guy and disarm him with your bare hands I guess.

Yeah CCW, or even open carry, really helped in the <insert mass shooting here>. It appears no matter how armed your society is, you still can't stop mass shootings.

Here...we will insert the concealed carrier here....

Some details to help you make your guess....

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 15 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)


Temple massacre has some Sikhs mulling gun ownership

The president of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin had only a butter knife on hand, which he used to fight the gunman. He was killed, but his heroic actions were credited for slowing the shooter. Guns were not allowed in the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin.

“No guns [were] allowed in the temple,” Kulbir Singh, an attendee of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, told FoxNews.com. “Everyone knows that it’s not allowed, anywhere in the temple.”

 

[2aguy]

So you'd just walk up to a guy and disarm him with your bare hands I guess.

Yeah CCW, or even open carry, really helped in the <insert mass shooting here>. It appears no matter how armed your society is, you still can't stop mass shootings.

Here you go......insert concealed carrier here....

Yep...another case that the gun grabbers say never happens...this Uber driver stopped a guy during a mass shooting....

Police in Chicago Give Hero his Gun Back - The Truth About Guns

On April 17th, John Hendricks reacted quickly and accurately to stop a mass shooting, likely saving numerous lives. Hendricks was exercising his Constitutional rights in Chicago, a town where they had been suppressed for generations. He was taking a break from accepting Uber fares when he saw a man rack a slide on a pistol across the street . . .


That’s when the man began firing at a group near him. Hendricks acted quickly and precisely. He fired about six rounds, hitting the attacker three times, a more accurate result than in most police-involved shootings.

Hendricks made the tactically correct decision to leave the area once the threat was down. He returned to give an account to the police on the scene.

From buzzpo.com:

Hendricks returned to the scene when police arrived and held his arms in the air, concealed carry and firearm owner identification cards in hand.

He said it was a common-sense approach after what had transpired.

“A shooting just happened,” Hendricks said. “I’m the one that called, and I’m the shooter.”

“At the time, I remembered I still had my firearm on me,” he recalled. “I let them know that my firearm’s on my right side.”

The police took Hendricks’ gun, which is common in self-defense situations. I have often taught concealed carry students to expect their gun to be impounded by the police while they sort things out.


The man is not a SEAL, a SWAT member, or James Bond.....and he stopped an active mass shooter...gee........I wonder why this doesn't count....prepare for the gun grabbers to move the goal post.....3....2.....1.......

 

[miketx]

What about disarming people who are not normal, like you? People obsessed with guns, like you and others who put their privilege of gun ownership about the lives and costs which daily impact American citizens, personally and vicariously by watching events unfold on the TV.

Come get them.

 

[2aguy]

So you'd just walk up to a guy and disarm him with your bare hands I guess.

Yeah CCW, or even open carry, really helped in the <insert mass shooting here>. It appears no matter how armed your society is, you still can't stop mass shootings.

Here you go...insert Concealed carrier here...notice..this happened two weeks after the Orlando club shooting ...vastly different outcome with a concealed carrier on site.......

Deputies: Man charged after opening fire, wounding several people at nightclub

LYMAN, SC (FOX Carolina) -

Deputies with Spartanburg County said a man faces multiple attempted murder charges after opening fire outside a nightclub early Sunday morning.

The shooting happened around 3:30 a.m. at Playoffz nightclub on Inman Road in Lyman.

Deputies said 32-year-old Jody Ray Thompson pulled out a gun after getting into an argument with another man and fired several rounds toward a crowd that had gathered out in front of the club.

"His rounds struck 3 victims, and almost struck a fourth victim, who in self-defense, pulled his own weapon and fired, striking Thompson in the leg," Lt. Kevin Bobo said.

Bobo said the man who shot Thompson has a valid concealed weapons permit, cooperated with investigators, and won’t be facing any charges.

"Thompson was still on the scene when deputies arrived, but the initial scene was chaotic," Bobo said. "It wasn’t until victims and witnesses were interviewed, and video from the scene was reviewed that Thompson was identified as the suspect."

Thompson was charged four counts of attempted murder, possession of a weapon during the commission of a violent crime, and unlawful carrying of a weapon.

------------------

 

[2aguy]

The Gun Grabbing Nazis dont have any use for contrary FACTS nor Reality.

Nobody wants to grab your peashooters. They want limits on the types of guns you're allowed and restrictions on the type of people allowed guns - ie felons...

Do you realize that felons are already banned from buying, owning and carrying guns...we already do that....do you realize that 90% of the gun murderers in this country are convicted felons........they are already on a list that says they can't buy, own or carry guns.........

Do you realize that?

 

[whitehall]

Aren't Police Officers the "good guys"? What makes a person with three or six months training superior in skill and mental stability to a retired Military Veteran or a person who excels at shooting sports? If the truth be known most Police Officers aren't interested in anything other than basic proficiency with a firearm and there are civilians who are not only interested in shooting sports but are forced to be aware of laws governing shooting situations. I'm not trying to put down Police Officers but they aren't the only "good guys" on the block.

 

[miketx]

Those gun laws work great don't they? At the prison I worked at, some cons broke every rule they could because they don't care about rules. Sometimes they would do it right in front of my face. So if I started out in prison feeling sorry for the convicts, I ended up wanting two electric chairs...no waiting.

 

[2aguy]

SHOCK: Another Mass Shooting at Club, But Look Why Media's Refusing to Report It

I posted that here a few days ago. Not a peep from the usual suspects.

Because not all examples have the value or weight. You're talking about a guy with a pistol? getting into an argument vs a guy with an assault rifle going ballistic. What do you do for an encore? Compare WWII to Football War of 1969

In 34 years Assault rifles used by someone going ballistic murdered 149 people.....in 34 years....from 1982-2016.....

Hand guns murdered 8,124 people in 2014....one year....90% of the shooters are already on the most restricted list....called convicted felons......they cannot buy, own or carry guns........

149 people with rifles in 34 years......and the morons here want to make 8,000,000 rifles in private hands illegal......

 

[2aguy]

The Gun Grabbing Nazis dont have any use for contrary FACTS nor Reality.

Nobody wants to grab your peashooters. They want limits on the types of guns you're allowed and restrictions on the type of people allowed guns - ie felons...

Hey genius....I have just been going through the list of spree shootings and mass shootings in Australia before the gun confiscation........you have acknowldeged that guns are still allowed in Australia...just the good kind....like shot guns..........right? And they are of course regulated.....

Julian Knight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Julian Knight (born 4 March 1968)[1] is an Australian mass murderer. On 9 August 1987, he shot dead seven people and injured 19 during a shooting spree in Clifton Hill, Victoria, Australia, in what became known in Australian history as the Hoddle Street massacre.

One of the weapons he used was shotgun......

 

[hadit]

Your premise is wrong at the most basic level. The correct mode of action for a CCW holder is to hold in place, and if the shooter tries to enter the area he controls, take him out.

Private CCW holders can be compared to a minefield, what you are hoping for is the active shooter doesn't expect armed resistance and the CCW holder can get some shots in before the active shooter realizes he is being confronted.

If you hold in place and you hear someone coming down a blind hallway, do you shout out and ask if they are the police, the shooter or another good guy? If it's the shooter, you're shit out of luck, aren't you? If it's the police they may not believe you are a good guy. They may think you're the shooter trying to save his sorry ass.

And if you hold in place but can hear the shooter actively killing people in another part of the building, what do you do? Your gun becomes a joke to the people who are dying.

So you should check YOUR premise for reality.

If you are a "good guy with a gun" and you see a cop, you immediately drop your weapon and put your hands up, immediately. That this escapes anyone is puzzling.

Announce your presence and inform the police that you are armed and place the firearm on the floor and back away from it with your arms extended.

Yes, that.

LOL, that might happen, or before that may happen the presence of the gun may be the first thing even a trained officer will see, and respond with deadly force. A breach no matter how well prepared is a high adrenaline situation, and an active shooter situation is an unlocked and loader situation.

A victim with a gun is less likely to be killed by police than by the shooter that caused the situation in the first place because police identify themselves before opening fire. Now, why again is this remote possibility a good reason to deny people their 2nd Amendment rights?

 

[2aguy]

The night club was a gun free zone Moron the shooting didn't happen all over the entire city of Orlando.

And if you don't live here what we do or don't do is none of your fucking business is it?

As is their right. And what about all the other non gun-free zones that have had mass shootings? And who's to say if somebody had been armed they would have done anything. The fact you live in a society where that is even a consideration says a lot. None of it good..

It's a free world I'll say what I like....Of course it's my business. well, just like Iraq and Afghanistan is none of your business, right?

Here you go...

Just One Gun Law Might Stop 98.8% Of Mass Shootings, So Why Do Democrats Oppose It?

If Democrats really want to stop the vast majority of mass killings, they can push for one simple law that would have the dual effects of restoring liberties nationwide, and destroying the common target of nearly every mass murder.

Yes, nearly 99% of all mass public murders over the last 66 years have the common denominator of occurring in so-called “gun free zones,” places where citizens have been prevented from being able to legally carry firearms for their own self-defense and the defense of others. Those evil souls who have decided that they must rage against innocent random human life nearly always pick densely populated spaces where they know citizens have been disarmed by ill-informed politicians.

They want time and space to kill.

Democrats have given them all the time and space they need for more than half a century. It isn’t working.

It’s time to get rid of these tragically misnamed “gun free zones” and give American citizens a fighting chance.

 

[Wry Catcher]

If you hold in place and you hear someone coming down a blind hallway, do you shout out and ask if they are the police, the shooter or another good guy? If it's the shooter, you're shit out of luck, aren't you? If it's the police they may not believe you are a good guy. They may think you're the shooter trying to save his sorry ass.

And if you hold in place but can hear the shooter actively killing people in another part of the building, what do you do? Your gun becomes a joke to the people who are dying.

So you should check YOUR premise for reality.

If you are a "good guy with a gun" and you see a cop, you immediately drop your weapon and put your hands up, immediately. That this escapes anyone is puzzling.

Announce your presence and inform the police that you are armed and place the firearm on the floor and back away from it with your arms extended.

Yes, that.

LOL, that might happen, or before that may happen the presence of the gun may be the first thing even a trained officer will see, and respond with deadly force. A breach no matter how well prepared is a high adrenaline situation, and an active shooter situation is an unlocked and loader situation.

A victim with a gun is less likely to be killed by police than by the shooter that caused the situation in the first place because police identify themselves before opening fire. Now, why again is this remote possibility a good reason to deny people their 2nd Amendment rights?

Who is denying anyone their Second Amendment Privilege? If one reads Heller without bias, they will realize even the late Justice Scalia limited the 2nd A. to a privilege and not an absolute right. Some people should never own or possess a gun. Do you not agree?