Why "Cattle Battle" is a dangerous precedent; What will be next?

[Missouri_Mike]

Perfect example

The right wing in in fact pro-government. They are for laws and force that THEY like, and only laws and force that they agree with or that helps their causes.

And I'm not worried personally. I worry for others. Stupid people that do shit like ride a horse carrying an AR15 into an area where federal agents are trying to enforce a court order, and then taking up elevated positions on a bridge and aiming the gun at the officers. Those idiots....I worry for.

99.9% of right wingers are just shit talking bluffers. That 0.1% are the idiots, most of whom live in the rural areas of the Nevada/Idaho/Wyoming/Montana type areas, or deep in the Appalachians or other very rural areas. So, since I don't go to Honky Tonk night at the bar or to Klan rallies, I likely wont ever see those folks.

We've never been ant-government that was always your claim. What we are for is smaller reasonable and under control government. The opposite of what you want which is a forceful totalitarian government rule.

I see why you are so concerned because your view of your fellow citizens is so slanted you can't even step out of your bubble to see what they are concerned about.

.1% have 75% of the country on their side. You sure you want to push that any higher? Maybe you should just put your tail between your legs and go curl up in a corner.

You don't worry about us you worry you can't control us. And that is reason enough you should be scared to death.

Scared to death of what? You and your kind are, supposedly, "law abiding citizens", as you so often say in the gun debates.

I should have absolutely no fear of any of you harming me. Right?

Neither should a law enforcement officer, enforcing a legal court order. Enforcing a lawful court order is LEGAL. Thus, anyone enforcing it should not have any reason to fear any "law abiding citizens".

RIGHT? Or, are you saying your kind will become murderers when law officers start enforcing legal court orders....which you happen not to like? Choice is yours.

I'm thinking you have nothing to fear if you actually believe in what you are enforcing. As you said in your next post I will quote shortly it doesn't seem like you are all on board for this totalitarian bullshit.

 

[Plasmaball]

Frank is a far right reactionary who gives not a darn about the Constitution or the rights of We the People, as he supports "limited" government will giving the corporatists everything.

You far righties and libertarians who despise the Rule of Law are losing. Always will.

Frank likes to push buttons and that is all.

 

[bodecea]

How do you ever leave your house? and why do you hate your fellow country men and women who was taking a stand against the THUGISH behavior of this government...
some of you make me ill siding with this government over the people in this country

I don't. I love my countrymen. But I'm disgusted by the ones who wish to destabilize our civil society.

This government is "of the people". Everyone (on both sides) forgets that the government hires people from the general population; They don't anoint them from prominent families. Everyone who is a federal agent was once a regular kid, then a normal college grad, who just applied for a job.

Its why our government, for all its problems, is 100X better than the ones in Korea, China, Russia, Europe, Middle East, South America, Mexico, etc, etc, etc. People seem to forget THAT when they throw around phrases like "government thugs" and "bootjacks".

Hitler's SS were just regular guys too

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

Ah yes.....keep telling yourself that.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Arresting drug dealers and shoplifters costs the government 100% more than it makes, since it makes nothing off those arrests.

Enforcing the law shouldn't involve PROFIT as a consideration. I know that 6 letter word may as well be written on the cover of the Holy Bible for right wingers, but to law enforcement, profit isn't a consideration. Only justice and enforcing laws that THE PEOPLE have passed and tasked them with enforcing.

Do you think what happened was justice?!? Do you think taken that man's cattle away was justice? Have you really read up on what this is about? Is it justice that Reid and his son got to sell that land for far less than it was worth? Where is the justice in this? I sure as heck don't see it.

Well, one man's justice is another man's crime.

There was a legal court order. Bundy ignored his obligation to the government for 21 years in return for using their land.

As far as plain ass black and white letter of the law, yes, he violated laws and court orders, and like ANY other citizen, should be held accountable.

Now, do I think its a stupid law? Yes. Do I think BLM was tasked to enforce it (after 21 years) due to some political reasons? Absolutely.

But its no different than a mayor tasking the police dept with cracking down on drugs and drunkenness in public when a tourist area suffers economic pain due to a lot of crime. Its politically motivated, and results in some petty arrests which, technically, are clear violations of the law.

Trust me, as a former cop, I 100% agree there are a LOT of laws on the books that need repealing. A lot of stupid shit that is illegal for no good reason. I agree fully on that.

So by your own admission you are being tasked to do jobs you don't even agree with. You think that may have had a a lot to do with why the feds backed off in Nevada? Not many of their enforcers agreed with what they were sent there to do?

So you agree there are some stupid ass laws you don't like. Now add into that you are told to arm up in full military gear and go enforce it. Do you do that or do you not really put much effort into it?

I'm good with rule of law. But we have gone so far beyond rule of law we are into rule of political assholes whims and desires. That's not rule of law especially when they exempt themselves form the laws they make.

I will list two right off the bat. Obiecare, the government is exempt from this piece of shit law they want you to go enforce. Are you good with that or are you included in the exemption so you don't care? Insider trading, good to prosecute anyone else but allowed in congress. You have to be fucking kidding me.

That's just two examples. If you run around enforcing this shit at the whim of a politicians goals you are as bad as he his.

Laws should apply evenly to me, you and the asshole that passed the law. Is that too much to ask here?

 

[bucs90]

We've never been ant-government that was always your claim. What we are for is smaller reasonable and under control government. The opposite of what you want which is a forceful totalitarian government rule.

I see why you are so concerned because your view of your fellow citizens is so slanted you can't even step out of your bubble to see what they are concerned about.

.1% have 75% of the country on their side. You sure you want to push that any higher? Maybe you should just put your tail between your legs and go curl up in a corner.

You don't worry about us you worry you can't control us. And that is reason enough you should be scared to death.

Scared to death of what? You and your kind are, supposedly, "law abiding citizens", as you so often say in the gun debates.

I should have absolutely no fear of any of you harming me. Right?

Neither should a law enforcement officer, enforcing a legal court order. Enforcing a lawful court order is LEGAL. Thus, anyone enforcing it should not have any reason to fear any "law abiding citizens".

RIGHT? Or, are you saying your kind will become murderers when law officers start enforcing legal court orders....which you happen not to like? Choice is yours.

I'm thinking you have nothing to fear if you actually believe in what you are enforcing. As you said in your next post I will quote shortly it doesn't seem like you are all on board for this totalitarian bullshit.

You are absolutely right about that. I am not on board for totalitarianism. I feel awful that the BLM agents were even put into this position. But, like any federal agent, or any city street cop for that matter, if your chain of command says to enforce a law or court order, and its a legal one, then you have to do it. Those guys were put in an awful position.

Despite me saying fuck-off to the Republican Party, I did not turn into a communist left winger, although many right wingers on here simply assumed I had and still label me that. I'd consider the right label to be "Disgruntled citizen who is indifferent or sickened by both sides depending on the day".

That said, I absolutely do not support a mass protest involving weapons being pointed at federal officers who are enforcing a lawful order.

Some may say the Feds showed too much manpower and force (via equipment). That's another debate. And, like ANY career, there are a lot of ins-and-outs of the job that people who have never been in it wouldn't realize. Like the scoped "sniper rifles". 99% of SWAT sniper rifles are not even loaded until they must shoot. They are almost purely for overwatch, to provide intel and a view of the scene from a distance (meaning its safer, and thus, lessening the likelihood of a tense, spur of the moment shooting). But, it does LOOK bad.

I think this incident is 99% about how it LOOKED. Which is a silly reason to take up arms and risk a shootout with the government. And the incident was initiated by some politician pressuring the Feds to enforce a stupid ass law.

The protest should be at Harry Reid's office, or the court that issued the court order. NOT against the men and women in uniform who did nothing wrong......simply did their job when told to enforce a legal court order.

Be pissed at the assholes who put those BLM officers into that position. Those assholes weren't out there on that ranch risking their safety like the officers, AND protestors, were. They were in their office kicked back laughing and waiting for the outcome to be done with.

Our anger is placed at the wrong spot. Those who support the officers should be angry at the idiots who pressured that order to come down. And those who support Bundy should be angry at those who pressured the order to come down that put those BLM officer in that position.

 

[Pheonixops]

I'm extremely worried about the antics the radical militia members pulled in "Cattle Battle". Its sending a message nationwide of "We won" amongst these radical groups, and its completely reasonable to think, like any incident, there will be admirers and copycats trying to mimic these radicals.

What will it be?

Will it be armed crowds trying to prevent ICE deportation raids? Or large, armed groups trying to block DEA search warrants? Or, will it be armed groups trying to stop a sheriffs dept or police dept from enforcing evictions? OR from serving a warrant for a wanted criminal?

Fact is, it is just not the way a civilized, advanced nation works for masses of armed citizen militia members to clash with official law enforcement agents- federal, state, county or city.

But its almost inevitable that some will try, and its like playing with fire. I truly hate thinking about what horrible event is going to occur because of all this. People just need to calm down and start rethinking reality a little bit. Turn off cable news. Stop surfing extremely partisan websites.

Buy a dog. Walk on the beach. Have a date night. Do something....just calm down.

-------------------------------------------------------------

If there was an internet back just before the Revolution, this is the kind of post we would have seen from the Tories.

Why do you say that? The Framers of the Constitution were the ones had made provisions for the Federal Government to own private lands.

Summary

Federal land ownership began when the original colonies ceded their "western" lands (between the Appalachian Mountains and the Mississippi River) to the central government between 1781 and 1802. Substantial land acquisition in North America via treaties and purchases began with the Louisiana Purchase in 1803 and culminated with buying Alaska in 1867. In total, the federal government has acquired 1.8 billion acres in North America, of which I.I billion acres have been disposed.

Two provisions of the U.S. Constitution address the relationship of the federal government to lands. Article I requires cession by the states and consent of their legislatures for the exercise of exclusive federal Jurisdiction over lands. Article IV addresses the authority of Congress over federal property generally, and the Supreme Court has described Congress's power to legislate under this Clause as "without limitation." Whether to acquire more or to dispose of any or all remaining federal lands is a policy question that is the responsibility of Congress.

The initial federal policy was generally to transfer ownership of many federal lands to private and state ownership. Congress enacted many laws granting lands and authorizing or directing sales or transfers, ultimately disposing of 1.1 billion acres. However, from the earliest times, Congress also provided for reserving land for federal purposes, and over time has reserved or withdrawn increasing area, such as for national parks, national forests, and wildlife refuges.

The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 was enacted to remedy the deterioration of the range on the remaining public lands. This was the first direct authority for federal management of these lands, and implicitly began the shift toward ending disposals and retaining lands in federal ownership. In 1976, Congress formally declared that national policy was generally to retain the remaining lands in federal ownership in the Federal Land Policy and Management Act.

Beginning in 1979, Nevada and other states asserted state title and management authority over the public lands, and challenged the constitutionality of the federal land retention policy. States have not prevailed in litigation on this issue. Bills to change the retention policy were introduced in the 95th, 96th, and 97th Congresses, and again in the 104th and 105th Congresses, but no bills were reported by a committee or saw floor action.

The Bureau of Land Management has several authorities for disposing of public lands, including sales, mining patents, and transfers for public purposes. The Forest Service has several very limited authorities, while the National Park Service and Fish and Wildlife Service cannot dispose of most of their lands. All four of these major federal land management agencies have broad authorities to acquire lands, although the Forest Service and National Park Service are generally restricted to lands within the designated boundaries of their units.

Federal Land Ownership: Constitutional Authority; the History of Acquisition, Disposal, and Retention; and Current Acquisition and Disposal Authorities : UNT Digital Library


Federal Lands are the Public's Land!

 

[bucs90]

Do you think what happened was justice?!? Do you think taken that man's cattle away was justice? Have you really read up on what this is about? Is it justice that Reid and his son got to sell that land for far less than it was worth? Where is the justice in this? I sure as heck don't see it.

Well, one man's justice is another man's crime.

There was a legal court order. Bundy ignored his obligation to the government for 21 years in return for using their land.

As far as plain ass black and white letter of the law, yes, he violated laws and court orders, and like ANY other citizen, should be held accountable.

Now, do I think its a stupid law? Yes. Do I think BLM was tasked to enforce it (after 21 years) due to some political reasons? Absolutely.

But its no different than a mayor tasking the police dept with cracking down on drugs and drunkenness in public when a tourist area suffers economic pain due to a lot of crime. Its politically motivated, and results in some petty arrests which, technically, are clear violations of the law.

Trust me, as a former cop, I 100% agree there are a LOT of laws on the books that need repealing. A lot of stupid shit that is illegal for no good reason. I agree fully on that.

So by your own admission you are being tasked to do jobs you don't even agree with. You think that may have had a a lot to do with why the feds backed off in Nevada? Not many of their enforcers agreed with what they were sent there to do?

So you agree there are some stupid ass laws you don't like. Now add into that you are told to arm up in full military gear and go enforce it. Do you do that or do you not really put much effort into it?

I'm good with rule of law. But we have gone so far beyond rule of law we are into rule of political assholes whims and desires. That's not rule of law especially when they exempt themselves form the laws they make.

I will list two right off the bat. Obiecare, the government is exempt from this piece of shit law they want you to go enforce. Are you good with that or are you included in the exemption so you don't care? Insider trading, good to prosecute anyone else but allowed in congress. You have to be fucking kidding me.

That's just two examples. If you run around enforcing this shit at the whim of a politicians goals you are as bad as he his.

Laws should apply evenly to me, you and the asshole that passed the law. Is that too much to ask here?

Oh of course I do. Those BLM agents weren't thrilled about carrying out that court order. I've always said, police discretion is a HUGE bedrock in our legal system. Whether it's cattle battle, or deciding to write a speeding ticket, or when to shoot a person who is on an armed rampage in a school or mall.

I think your post was very good and accurate. Yes, a LOT of stupid laws are out there, and its wonderful that cops can refuse to enforce many of them. That said, the Feds have a lot less wiggle room than your local police or sheriffs due to heavy politics in DC.

As for Obamacare, YES, its a sad shame that anyone is exempt. Unions or government...should all be subject to it. Law is law. You are 100% right, and I've never been 100% on board with Obamacare either.

For the record, "I" don't enforce any of this and never did. I'm a retired LEO. Working for city of Atlanta. And yes, we had a lot of shit we ignored. When city hall wanted some stupid shit enforced for whatever micky mouse reason, we often just didn't do it, pissed the command staff off, but, they got over it, because A) We have discretion and B) We aren't the military so there is no court martial for not doing it and C) It takes a LOT of saying no to get fired as a cop.


Those BLM agents knew it was stupid, and I bet that 90% of the reason they left. THEY didn't want a gunfight any more than the citizens did, and I wish both sides would have just come together and said "this shit is stupid".

I've long been pissed off at the shitty situations politicians have put American police officers in, at all levels federal, state, local, because its often something they know is stupid, and it makes the public hate the cops because they see the uniforms enforcing the law....not the suit and tie politicians who pushed for it to happen.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Well, one man's justice is another man's crime.

There was a legal court order. Bundy ignored his obligation to the government for 21 years in return for using their land.

As far as plain ass black and white letter of the law, yes, he violated laws and court orders, and like ANY other citizen, should be held accountable.

Now, do I think its a stupid law? Yes. Do I think BLM was tasked to enforce it (after 21 years) due to some political reasons? Absolutely.

But its no different than a mayor tasking the police dept with cracking down on drugs and drunkenness in public when a tourist area suffers economic pain due to a lot of crime. Its politically motivated, and results in some petty arrests which, technically, are clear violations of the law.

Trust me, as a former cop, I 100% agree there are a LOT of laws on the books that need repealing. A lot of stupid shit that is illegal for no good reason. I agree fully on that.

So by your own admission you are being tasked to do jobs you don't even agree with. You think that may have had a a lot to do with why the feds backed off in Nevada? Not many of their enforcers agreed with what they were sent there to do?

So you agree there are some stupid ass laws you don't like. Now add into that you are told to arm up in full military gear and go enforce it. Do you do that or do you not really put much effort into it?

I'm good with rule of law. But we have gone so far beyond rule of law we are into rule of political assholes whims and desires. That's not rule of law especially when they exempt themselves form the laws they make.

I will list two right off the bat. Obiecare, the government is exempt from this piece of shit law they want you to go enforce. Are you good with that or are you included in the exemption so you don't care? Insider trading, good to prosecute anyone else but allowed in congress. You have to be fucking kidding me.

That's just two examples. If you run around enforcing this shit at the whim of a politicians goals you are as bad as he his.

Laws should apply evenly to me, you and the asshole that passed the law. Is that too much to ask here?

Oh of course I do. Those BLM agents weren't thrilled about carrying out that court order. I've always said, police discretion is a HUGE bedrock in our legal system. Whether it's cattle battle, or deciding to write a speeding ticket, or when to shoot a person who is on an armed rampage in a school or mall.

I think your post was very good and accurate. Yes, a LOT of stupid laws are out there, and its wonderful that cops can refuse to enforce many of them. That said, the Feds have a lot less wiggle room than your local police or sheriffs due to heavy politics in DC.

As for Obamacare, YES, its a sad shame that anyone is exempt. Unions or government...should all be subject to it. Law is law. You are 100% right, and I've never been 100% on board with Obamacare either.

For the record, "I" don't enforce any of this and never did. I'm a retired LEO. Working for city of Atlanta. And yes, we had a lot of shit we ignored. When city hall wanted some stupid shit enforced for whatever micky mouse reason, we often just didn't do it, pissed the command staff off, but, they got over it, because A) We have discretion and B) We aren't the military so there is no court martial for not doing it and C) It takes a LOT of saying no to get fired as a cop.


Those BLM agents knew it was stupid, and I bet that 90% of the reason they left. THEY didn't want a gunfight any more than the citizens did, and I wish both sides would have just come together and said "this shit is stupid".

I've long been pissed off at the shitty situations politicians have put American police officers in, at all levels federal, state, local, because its often something they know is stupid, and it makes the public hate the cops because they see the uniforms enforcing the law....not the suit and tie politicians who pushed for it to happen.

I gave you rep for the previous post and if I could you would get more here.

So when the government is so out of control those tasked with enforcing it don't want to be involved why do we keep up this stupid game?

Shouldn't this be the point that the people and the officers forced to defend this stupid come together and shut it all down?

I seriously hope what you have said is true. If the people and those tasked with enforcing stupid laws all come together we won't need to fire a single shot on either side. Then we can both focus on those that are causing these problems.

 

[bucs90]

So by your own admission you are being tasked to do jobs you don't even agree with. You think that may have had a a lot to do with why the feds backed off in Nevada? Not many of their enforcers agreed with what they were sent there to do?

So you agree there are some stupid ass laws you don't like. Now add into that you are told to arm up in full military gear and go enforce it. Do you do that or do you not really put much effort into it?

I'm good with rule of law. But we have gone so far beyond rule of law we are into rule of political assholes whims and desires. That's not rule of law especially when they exempt themselves form the laws they make.

I will list two right off the bat. Obiecare, the government is exempt from this piece of shit law they want you to go enforce. Are you good with that or are you included in the exemption so you don't care? Insider trading, good to prosecute anyone else but allowed in congress. You have to be fucking kidding me.

That's just two examples. If you run around enforcing this shit at the whim of a politicians goals you are as bad as he his.

Laws should apply evenly to me, you and the asshole that passed the law. Is that too much to ask here?

Oh of course I do. Those BLM agents weren't thrilled about carrying out that court order. I've always said, police discretion is a HUGE bedrock in our legal system. Whether it's cattle battle, or deciding to write a speeding ticket, or when to shoot a person who is on an armed rampage in a school or mall.

I think your post was very good and accurate. Yes, a LOT of stupid laws are out there, and its wonderful that cops can refuse to enforce many of them. That said, the Feds have a lot less wiggle room than your local police or sheriffs due to heavy politics in DC.

As for Obamacare, YES, its a sad shame that anyone is exempt. Unions or government...should all be subject to it. Law is law. You are 100% right, and I've never been 100% on board with Obamacare either.

For the record, "I" don't enforce any of this and never did. I'm a retired LEO. Working for city of Atlanta. And yes, we had a lot of shit we ignored. When city hall wanted some stupid shit enforced for whatever micky mouse reason, we often just didn't do it, pissed the command staff off, but, they got over it, because A) We have discretion and B) We aren't the military so there is no court martial for not doing it and C) It takes a LOT of saying no to get fired as a cop.


Those BLM agents knew it was stupid, and I bet that 90% of the reason they left. THEY didn't want a gunfight any more than the citizens did, and I wish both sides would have just come together and said "this shit is stupid".

I've long been pissed off at the shitty situations politicians have put American police officers in, at all levels federal, state, local, because its often something they know is stupid, and it makes the public hate the cops because they see the uniforms enforcing the law....not the suit and tie politicians who pushed for it to happen.

I gave you rep for the previous post and if I could you would get more here.

So when the government is so out of control those tasked with enforcing it don't want to be involved why do we keep up this stupid game?

Shouldn't this be the point that the people and the officers forced to defend this stupid come together and shut it all down?

I seriously hope what you have said is true. If the people and those tasked with enforcing stupid laws all come together we won't need to fire a single shot on either side. Then we can both focus on those that are causing these problems.

I'm repping you as well.

I think this incident COULD have provided a fascinating debate on laws, enforcement, rights, etc, etc. But, of course, the extreme partisanship of both sides, particularly the media, twisted it.

I agree 100% with you. If people had more discussion about this with their officers who are tasked with enforcing laws that, in theory, "we the people" passed, we would have more understanding.

And I get the emotion, and initial anger at the folks in uniform enforcing it. They are on-scene doing the enforcement, so its easy to be pissed at them. But, I'd guarantee that if those BLM officers and protestors all changed clothes, had some beer and BBQ, they'd probably all agree that it was a stupid fucking law, that Harry Reid is an idiot, and they all had better things to do that day.

However, there is a duty to enforce laws on the books under legal order, and I have a very strong, obvious tendency to support men and women in the police uniform who go out daily and do the inglorious, thankless, often dangerous job.

Enforcing laws on murder, rape, DUI, selling heroine, property theft like burglary and car break-ins.......that stuff is easy, and all good citizens would thank cops for doing it.

But we ALL need to have that discussion about the stupid laws, and that includes the folks put into those difficult situations of enforcing them. Because we do have a common "foe" in the idiot politicians who pass them and demand they are enforced.

I just get upset with the misplaced anger sometimes, as 99% of law enforcement are great people (yes, I hate the bad apples who are on the news doing illegal shit).

Screw Harry Ried. Screw that law. Bundy needs to man up and pay his fines. I hope the BLM refuses to go back out there. And I hope we all can take a more calm view of it next time.

 

[bucs90]

I seriously hope what you have said is true. If the people and those tasked with enforcing stupid laws all come together we won't need to fire a single shot on either side. Then we can both focus on those that are causing these problems.

I wanted to address this one separate. I agree 100%.

I think the BLM saw this scene and said "This could go really bad and it shouldn't. Lets leave". And I think the protestors saw the agents, and knew firing on them wasn't the answer, it wasn't a "Stand Your Ground" situation.

And both sides went home that day without shooting. Which is very good.

Cops in Chicago used to take sniper fire from the tops of housing projects when they showed up to arrest cold blooded murderers and rapists, and some cops died. The Bundy protestors would not do that.

And, as we see in Iran and Syria and Egypt, SOME countries have police that will not hesitate to openly fire upon crowds of innocent people. Our cops don't do that (although an occasional criminal-in-uniform bad apple has and were arrested and should be hung).

We should all start looking for constructive conversation in this incident.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Oh of course I do. Those BLM agents weren't thrilled about carrying out that court order. I've always said, police discretion is a HUGE bedrock in our legal system. Whether it's cattle battle, or deciding to write a speeding ticket, or when to shoot a person who is on an armed rampage in a school or mall.

I think your post was very good and accurate. Yes, a LOT of stupid laws are out there, and its wonderful that cops can refuse to enforce many of them. That said, the Feds have a lot less wiggle room than your local police or sheriffs due to heavy politics in DC.

As for Obamacare, YES, its a sad shame that anyone is exempt. Unions or government...should all be subject to it. Law is law. You are 100% right, and I've never been 100% on board with Obamacare either.

For the record, "I" don't enforce any of this and never did. I'm a retired LEO. Working for city of Atlanta. And yes, we had a lot of shit we ignored. When city hall wanted some stupid shit enforced for whatever micky mouse reason, we often just didn't do it, pissed the command staff off, but, they got over it, because A) We have discretion and B) We aren't the military so there is no court martial for not doing it and C) It takes a LOT of saying no to get fired as a cop.


Those BLM agents knew it was stupid, and I bet that 90% of the reason they left. THEY didn't want a gunfight any more than the citizens did, and I wish both sides would have just come together and said "this shit is stupid".

I've long been pissed off at the shitty situations politicians have put American police officers in, at all levels federal, state, local, because its often something they know is stupid, and it makes the public hate the cops because they see the uniforms enforcing the law....not the suit and tie politicians who pushed for it to happen.

I gave you rep for the previous post and if I could you would get more here.

So when the government is so out of control those tasked with enforcing it don't want to be involved why do we keep up this stupid game?

Shouldn't this be the point that the people and the officers forced to defend this stupid come together and shut it all down?

I seriously hope what you have said is true. If the people and those tasked with enforcing stupid laws all come together we won't need to fire a single shot on either side. Then we can both focus on those that are causing these problems.

I'm repping you as well.

I think this incident COULD have provided a fascinating debate on laws, enforcement, rights, etc, etc. But, of course, the extreme partisanship of both sides, particularly the media, twisted it.

I agree 100% with you. If people had more discussion about this with their officers who are tasked with enforcing laws that, in theory, "we the people" passed, we would have more understanding.

And I get the emotion, and initial anger at the folks in uniform enforcing it. They are on-scene doing the enforcement, so its easy to be pissed at them. But, I'd guarantee that if those BLM officers and protestors all changed clothes, had some beer and BBQ, they'd probably all agree that it was a stupid fucking law, that Harry Reid is an idiot, and they all had better things to do that day.

However, there is a duty to enforce laws on the books under legal order, and I have a very strong, obvious tendency to support men and women in the police uniform who go out daily and do the inglorious, thankless, often dangerous job.

Enforcing laws on murder, rape, DUI, selling heroine, property theft like burglary and car break-ins.......that stuff is easy, and all good citizens would thank cops for doing it.

But we ALL need to have that discussion about the stupid laws, and that includes the folks put into those difficult situations of enforcing them. Because we do have a common "foe" in the idiot politicians who pass them and demand they are enforced.

I just get upset with the misplaced anger sometimes, as 99% of law enforcement are great people (yes, I hate the bad apples who are on the news doing illegal shit).

Screw Harry Ried. Screw that law. Bundy needs to man up and pay his fines. I hope the BLM refuses to go back out there. And I hope we all can take a more calm view of it next time.

I appreciate the rep return.

Nobody I know is pissed off at the cops until it gets this rediculous in the enforcement. They don't want to do it, we don't want to see them do it either it but here we are. The people that made this happen are the politicians. What are they going to do if the people they target and those they demand enforce this stupid agree to not participate? That pretty much leaves it up to the politicians to get all riled up and if they want this enforced maybe they should gun up and go do it themselves with whoever is willing to join them.

I'm sick and tired of the government. They have become so unreasonable and so focused on forcing people to do what they want it can only end one way if they keep pushing. And the only victims will be protestors or law enforcement that doesn't even want to be there. That's a lose lose situation. The last man standing is Harry fucking Reid and he caused the problem.

I hope more people begin focusing on the root of the problem on both sides because together we win.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

I'm extremely worried about the antics the radical militia members pulled in "Cattle Battle". Its sending a message nationwide of "We won" amongst these radical groups, and its completely reasonable to think, like any incident, there will be admirers and copycats trying to mimic these radicals.

What will it be?

Will it be armed crowds trying to prevent ICE deportation raids? Or large, armed groups trying to block DEA search warrants? Or, will it be armed groups trying to stop a sheriffs dept or police dept from enforcing evictions? OR from serving a warrant for a wanted criminal?

Fact is, it is just not the way a civilized, advanced nation works for masses of armed citizen militia members to clash with official law enforcement agents- federal, state, county or city.

But its almost inevitable that some will try, and its like playing with fire. I truly hate thinking about what horrible event is going to occur because of all this. People just need to calm down and start rethinking reality a little bit. Turn off cable news. Stop surfing extremely partisan websites.

Buy a dog. Walk on the beach. Have a date night. Do something....just calm down.

We all know that what happened at the Bundy Ranch is the ONLY solution to Kelo vs New London.

 

[bucs90]

I gave you rep for the previous post and if I could you would get more here.

So when the government is so out of control those tasked with enforcing it don't want to be involved why do we keep up this stupid game?

Shouldn't this be the point that the people and the officers forced to defend this stupid come together and shut it all down?

I seriously hope what you have said is true. If the people and those tasked with enforcing stupid laws all come together we won't need to fire a single shot on either side. Then we can both focus on those that are causing these problems.

I'm repping you as well.

I think this incident COULD have provided a fascinating debate on laws, enforcement, rights, etc, etc. But, of course, the extreme partisanship of both sides, particularly the media, twisted it.

I agree 100% with you. If people had more discussion about this with their officers who are tasked with enforcing laws that, in theory, "we the people" passed, we would have more understanding.

And I get the emotion, and initial anger at the folks in uniform enforcing it. They are on-scene doing the enforcement, so its easy to be pissed at them. But, I'd guarantee that if those BLM officers and protestors all changed clothes, had some beer and BBQ, they'd probably all agree that it was a stupid fucking law, that Harry Reid is an idiot, and they all had better things to do that day.

However, there is a duty to enforce laws on the books under legal order, and I have a very strong, obvious tendency to support men and women in the police uniform who go out daily and do the inglorious, thankless, often dangerous job.

Enforcing laws on murder, rape, DUI, selling heroine, property theft like burglary and car break-ins.......that stuff is easy, and all good citizens would thank cops for doing it.

But we ALL need to have that discussion about the stupid laws, and that includes the folks put into those difficult situations of enforcing them. Because we do have a common "foe" in the idiot politicians who pass them and demand they are enforced.

I just get upset with the misplaced anger sometimes, as 99% of law enforcement are great people (yes, I hate the bad apples who are on the news doing illegal shit).

Screw Harry Ried. Screw that law. Bundy needs to man up and pay his fines. I hope the BLM refuses to go back out there. And I hope we all can take a more calm view of it next time.

I appreciate the rep return.

Nobody I know is pissed off at the cops until it gets this rediculous in the enforcement. They don't want to do it, we don't want to see them do it either it but here we are. The people that made this happen are the politicians. What are they going to do if the people they target and those they demand enforce this stupid agree to not participate? That pretty much leaves it up to the politicians to get all riled up and if they want this enforced maybe they should gun up and go do it themselves with whoever is willing to join them.

I'm sick and tired of the government. They have become so unreasonable and so focused on forcing people to do what they want it can only end one way if they keep pushing. And the only victims will be protestors or law enforcement that doesn't even want to be there. That's a lose lose situation. The last man standing is Harry fucking Reid and he caused the problem.

I hope more people begin focusing on the root of the problem on both sides because together we win.

You, sir, I'd be proud to have a beer and watch a ball game with. You "get it" I think, as far as most cops are just as disgusted with our politicians as you folks are. On that note, I pray that more and more police sergeants and above are "getting it" and will start saying no more often. Sheriffs are way ahead of the curve on this, local police are next. State and Feds need to get on board.

I absolutely get frustrated when people lump the political side of "government" in with the cops and military side of it, who are almost all honorable and patriotic men and women. BUT, as you said, often the politicians have TOO MUCH power and ruin the entire image of government.

I think everyone on both sides and in the middle would agree that most all politicians have become unreasonable and corrupt, and you and I seem to have found some common ground on it.

Those protestors are NOT terrorist; Those BLM agents are NOT Nazi thugs; They all are in this situation because of a piece of shit politician.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

I wanted to address this one separate. I agree 100%.

I think the BLM saw this scene and said "This could go really bad and it shouldn't. Lets leave". And I think the protestors saw the agents, and knew firing on them wasn't the answer, it wasn't a "Stand Your Ground" situation.

And both sides went home that day without shooting. Which is very good.

Cops in Chicago used to take sniper fire from the tops of housing projects when they showed up to arrest cold blooded murderers and rapists, and some cops died. The Bundy protestors would not do that.

And, as we see in Iran and Syria and Egypt, SOME countries have police that will not hesitate to openly fire upon crowds of innocent people. Our cops don't do that (although an occasional criminal-in-uniform bad apple has and were arrested and should be hung).

We should all start looking for constructive conversation in this incident.

And that is exactly why I said that law enforcement would switch to the people's side. I have four family members that are cops. Not one of them would be up for this mission.

Kinda telling when the targets and the enforcers are on the same side. I'm happy it worked out and there was no gun fire. It wasn't necessary. We both have a common problem here and it's the feds calling the shots. I want to know who sent these people out there fully armed as if they were going into combat. I want to know who give the command to set up a first amendment zone and make people stand in it. I want to know who had what to gain by this operation and why it had to be like this.

The cops aren't my problem, the order givers are.

 

[bucs90]

And that is exactly why I said that law enforcement would switch to the people's side. I have four family members that are cops. Not one of them would be up for this mission.

Kinda telling when the targets and the enforcers are on the same side. I'm happy it worked out and there was no gun fire. It wasn't necessary. We both have a common problem here and it's the feds calling the shots. I want to know who sent these people out there fully armed as if they were going into combat. I want to know who give the command to set up a first amendment zone and make people stand in it. I want to know who had what to gain by this operation and why it had to be like this.

The cops aren't my problem, the order givers are.

Well said, and I completely agree.

One note on the equipment they had. Almost every SWAT/tactical unit in America from the Feds on down to cities have standards they must meet that include everything from tactics to equipment and policy. Most go by NTOA, the National Tactical Officers Association.

They go by the rules, and rules are that if that unit is activated, ALL members and ALL equipment comes. Its a standard because it takes guessing out, and keeps the standards defensable in court, so if a team decides not to bring certain equipment that could have saved lives, then they are liable.

NOW, that said, activating that tactical unit meant they had to bring all that stuff, by policy and standards of NTOA (who they likely go by). And as you and I both agree, THAT unit probably should not have been used.

So once again, the blame goes to the politican or agency head to made the call to activate that unit. But they almost certainly had no choice but to bring all issue and assigned equipment once activated.

God I wish these officers and protestors could all have a rally in plain clothes with beer and music and food and let them all state how silly and stupid they think it was that this incident occurred at all.

Bundy should have paid his fines; Reid should've stayed out of it.

 

[Darkwind]

I think it was a good job they did. No matter how wrong Bundy is in the case, the BLM's over reach needed to be countered and it was. A potential WACO was averted, and no blood was shed. It was the best of all possible outcomes.

It was a stupid law that they were tasked with enforcing. But, they are employed to enforce laws.

That said, they did NOT overreach. They planned an operation, and obviously had information that led them to believe that their attempt to enforce this would be met with an agitated group, and possibly the arrival of armed protestors. SO, BLM showed up prepared for that, and what do ya know, that's what happened. Good intell and planning by BLM. Thank God neither side did anything stupid after that, and it dispersed peacefully.


But what if 3 BLM officers in normal police uniforms, showed up tomorrow to carry out the court order? They'd be blocked and overwhelmed by 500-1,000 armed protestors. So, see how they didn't "overreach"? If that court order is to be enforced, a large manpower presence will be required.

So why isn't 100% of Obamacare being enforced, and why isnt' a governmetn agency bringing the heat to Eric Holder?

 

[The T]

I think it was a good job they did. No matter how wrong Bundy is in the case, the BLM's over reach needed to be countered and it was. A potential WACO was averted, and no blood was shed. It was the best of all possible outcomes.

It was a stupid law that they were tasked with enforcing. But, they are employed to enforce laws.

That said, they did NOT overreach. They planned an operation, and obviously had information that led them to believe that their attempt to enforce this would be met with an agitated group, and possibly the arrival of armed protestors. SO, BLM showed up prepared for that, and what do ya know, that's what happened. Good intell and planning by BLM. Thank God neither side did anything stupid after that, and it dispersed peacefully.


But what if 3 BLM officers in normal police uniforms, showed up tomorrow to carry out the court order? They'd be blocked and overwhelmed by 500-1,000 armed protestors. So, see how they didn't "overreach"? If that court order is to be enforced, a large manpower presence will be required.

So why isn't 100% of Obamacare being enforced, and why isnt' a governmetn agency bringing the heat to Eric Holder?

Because WE have an IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY...SHORT of Dictatorship. And that's just FINE with the left that supports his and the Government's tyranny foisted upon the people.

 

[The T]

Just sit down and SHUT UP is their battle cry...

 

[The T]

I'm extremely worried about the antics the radical militia members pulled in "Cattle Battle". Its sending a message nationwide of "We won" amongst these radical groups, and its completely reasonable to think, like any incident, there will be admirers and copycats trying to mimic these radicals.

What will it be?

Will it be armed crowds trying to prevent ICE deportation raids? Or large, armed groups trying to block DEA search warrants? Or, will it be armed groups trying to stop a sheriffs dept or police dept from enforcing evictions? OR from serving a warrant for a wanted criminal?

Fact is, it is just not the way a civilized, advanced nation works for masses of armed citizen militia members to clash with official law enforcement agents- federal, state, county or city.

But its almost inevitable that some will try, and its like playing with fire. I truly hate thinking about what horrible event is going to occur because of all this. People just need to calm down and start rethinking reality a little bit. Turn off cable news. Stop surfing extremely partisan websites.

Buy a dog. Walk on the beach. Have a date night. Do something....just calm down.

We all know that what happened at the Bundy Ranch is the ONLY solution to Kelo vs New London.

And should/WILL be repeated across the Republic. TIME to put this tyranny in check.

 

[The T]

The next time the cowboys try a Tom Horn approach, they will be horned and gored by the feds.

FUCK YOU and this TYRANNY Jake. TIME this came to an END indeed...with the Government re-evaluating their POWER GRAB against the people.

YOU will LEARN this sooner or later. WE are in charge...