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Excuse me. I was looking for the History board, but I see by the OP that somehow I have ended up in the Rubber Room....
Bet you said that in every classroom you've ever entered.
The result is evident.
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Excuse me. I was looking for the History board, but I see by the OP that somehow I have ended up in the Rubber Room....
OP is fail.
Logistics (particularly assault boats and cargo carriers) in 1943 as the Mediterranean and Pacific theatres competed for assets made anything other than Italian and western Pacific islands targets.
Until western Europe was assaulted in June 1944, the Axis had no trouble keeping the Allies contained on the Italian boot.
The Axis collapsed 11 months later. If the Allies had stayed in the central and eastern from Mediterranean only from 1942 on, the war in Europe would have lasted until 1948 or later.
Your education is about to be advanced: pay close attention-
The OP stated that "We were secretly master-manipulated" by Stalin and the Soviets.
Let's get an idea of how thorough, and long-range their planning is.....
3. Before we proceed to Stalin's plan for Germany, learn about how the Soviets operate, starting with Pearl Harbor.
Not only did Stalin know about Japanese plans to attack the United States many months in advance, but there is evidence that the Soviets were involved in instigating the attack on America!
(see INVESTIGATIONS: The Case Against I.P.R. - TIME and "Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 393-395)
a. From both Tokyo and Washington, KGB cells 'worked in mid-1941 to avert a Japanese invasion of the Soviet Union..."
"Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," by Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter
b. Soviet military intelligence officer, Richard Sorge, directed the espionage network in Tokyo, which included member of the Institute of Pacific Relations, managed to push the Japanese to strike, not north into the Soviet Union, but at American interests.
"Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 390-392
4. In Washington, agent Lauchlin Currie, White House economic adviser to President Franklin Roosevelt, worked at undermining any rapprochement between the US and Japan, and influenced the US to provoke the Japanese.
5. In 1995, Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed "Operation Snow," the plan to manipulate Japan and America into war.
a.In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."
b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury. Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes,
Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History
Keep in mind 'White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury'.....this will prove important later.
c. "The chapter on Pearl Harbor is likewise instructive as to how Soviet agents operated. Japan seriously considered an attack on Russia, but Stalins agents in the Japanese government and in the highly efficient Sorge spy ring on the island nation helped persuade Imperial Japan to turn its aggression elsewhere. That elsewhere eventually turned out to be Pearl Harbor. Stalins acolytes in the U.S. were simultaneously pushing a foreign policy against Japan that would lead the Japanese away from any designs on Siberia and toward conflict with America." Infiltration, intrigue and Communists - Conservative News
Machiavelli could have learned from Stalin!
Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste
But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?
Completely ignores Japans main motivation, oil. The oil was in the south and controlled by the US and allies. Was no oil in the north.
b/c he hadn't killed off enough Americans yet.
There weren't enough jobs for all of them to come back to, so to save his legacy people had to die.
He was, w/o a doubt, the most evil person to ever be President.
Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste
But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?
Completely ignores Japans main motivation, oil. The oil was in the south and controlled by the US and allies. Was no oil in the north.
There is, but it was inaccessible to Japan. Japan only looked into Indochina and the Philippines after the Russians cleaned their clocks in 39 in a nasty border war in Manchuria.
Do you contest the accepted historical record that indicates that the decision for unconditional surrender was reached at Casablanca? How was Stalin involved if he was not there? What are the sources relied upon to reach this conclusion?
Your education is about to be advanced: pay close attention-
The OP stated that "We were secretly master-manipulated" by Stalin and the Soviets.
Let's get an idea of how thorough, and long-range their planning is.....
3. Before we proceed to Stalin's plan for Germany, learn about how the Soviets operate, starting with Pearl Harbor.
Not only did Stalin know about Japanese plans to attack the United States many months in advance, but there is evidence that the Soviets were involved in instigating the attack on America!
(see INVESTIGATIONS: The Case Against I.P.R. - TIME and "Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 393-395)
a. From both Tokyo and Washington, KGB cells 'worked in mid-1941 to avert a Japanese invasion of the Soviet Union..."
"Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," by Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter
b. Soviet military intelligence officer, Richard Sorge, directed the espionage network in Tokyo, which included member of the Institute of Pacific Relations, managed to push the Japanese to strike, not north into the Soviet Union, but at American interests.
"Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 390-392
4. In Washington, agent Lauchlin Currie, White House economic adviser to President Franklin Roosevelt, worked at undermining any rapprochement between the US and Japan, and influenced the US to provoke the Japanese.
5. In 1995, Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed "Operation Snow," the plan to manipulate Japan and America into war.
a.In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."
b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury. Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes,
Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History
Keep in mind 'White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury'.....this will prove important later.
c. "The chapter on Pearl Harbor is likewise instructive as to how Soviet agents operated. Japan seriously considered an attack on Russia, but Stalins agents in the Japanese government and in the highly efficient Sorge spy ring on the island nation helped persuade Imperial Japan to turn its aggression elsewhere. That elsewhere eventually turned out to be Pearl Harbor. Stalins acolytes in the U.S. were simultaneously pushing a foreign policy against Japan that would lead the Japanese away from any designs on Siberia and toward conflict with America." Infiltration, intrigue and Communists - Conservative News
Machiavelli could have learned from Stalin!
Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste
But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?
Your education is about to be advanced: pay close attention-
The OP stated that "We were secretly master-manipulated" by Stalin and the Soviets.
Let's get an idea of how thorough, and long-range their planning is.....
3. Before we proceed to Stalin's plan for Germany, learn about how the Soviets operate, starting with Pearl Harbor.
Not only did Stalin know about Japanese plans to attack the United States many months in advance, but there is evidence that the Soviets were involved in instigating the attack on America!
(see INVESTIGATIONS: The Case Against I.P.R. - TIME and "Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 393-395)
a. From both Tokyo and Washington, KGB cells 'worked in mid-1941 to avert a Japanese invasion of the Soviet Union..."
"Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," by Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter
b. Soviet military intelligence officer, Richard Sorge, directed the espionage network in Tokyo, which included member of the Institute of Pacific Relations, managed to push the Japanese to strike, not north into the Soviet Union, but at American interests.
"Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 390-392
4. In Washington, agent Lauchlin Currie, White House economic adviser to President Franklin Roosevelt, worked at undermining any rapprochement between the US and Japan, and influenced the US to provoke the Japanese.
5. In 1995, Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed "Operation Snow," the plan to manipulate Japan and America into war.
a.In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."
b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury. Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes,
Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History
Keep in mind 'White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury'.....this will prove important later.
c. "The chapter on Pearl Harbor is likewise instructive as to how Soviet agents operated. Japan seriously considered an attack on Russia, but Stalins agents in the Japanese government and in the highly efficient Sorge spy ring on the island nation helped persuade Imperial Japan to turn its aggression elsewhere. That elsewhere eventually turned out to be Pearl Harbor. Stalins acolytes in the U.S. were simultaneously pushing a foreign policy against Japan that would lead the Japanese away from any designs on Siberia and toward conflict with America." Infiltration, intrigue and Communists - Conservative News
Machiavelli could have learned from Stalin!
Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste
But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?
Now, I know that you are so old that you hesitate to buy green bananas.....but, try to relax....
I said I'd prove the premise....but not in bumper-stickers.
I document, and link.....
OK...your next lesson is here:
6. The OP provides an indication of the ability, the motive, and the malevolence of Soviet machinations, as does the post revealing the KGB plan to set Japan and the United States at each other's throats.
Earlier I said not to forget this, as it is most significant:
" Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury."
This was Stalin's leverage to extend WWII.
White had Morganthau agree to Stalin's plan for Germany.
Stalin and his spies in the Roosevelt administration insisted....demanded!.....that Germany not be allowed to surrender. It had to be obliterated....
....even though this meant extending the war and dramatically increasing Allies casualties.
Soviet agents engineered the Morgenthau Plan.
7. Morganthau Plan: "The Morgenthau Plan, first proposed by United States Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. in a memorandum entitled Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany, advocated that the Allied occupation of Germany following World War II include measures to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war by eliminating its armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr area. "
Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a. " Morgenthau, Henry (1944). "Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany [The original memorandum from 1944, signed by Morgenthau] (text and facsimile)".
Box 31, Folder Germany: Jan.-Sept. 1944 (i297). Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum (published 27 May 2004).
Archived from the original on 12 November 2013.
"Demilitarization of Germany: It should be the aim of the Allied Forces to accomplish the complete demilitarization of Germany in the shortest possible period of time after surrender. This means completely disarming the German Army and people (including the removal or destruction of all war material), the total destruction of the whole German armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries which are basic to military strength."
8. Now note the testimony by converted Soviet spy, Elizabeth Bentley, who revealed Stalin's plans for Germany:
Elizabeth Bentley, a former operative of the Soviet underground testified before the Senate subcommittee on August 14, 1951, naming some 80 Soviet spies. Her testimony was summarized in an FBI report, dated November 25, 1945.
Glimpse the methods and purpose of the Soviet operation:
Miss Bentley testified as follows about the Morgenthau plan, Stalin's plans for Germany:
Senator Eastland: "Did you know who drew that plan?"
Miss Bentley: "Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."
Senator Ferguson: "That was what the Communists wanted?"
Miss Bentley: "Definitely Moscow wanted them completely razed because then they would be of no help to the allies."
Senator Eastland: "What you say is that it was a Communist plot to destroy Germany and weaken her to where she could not help us?"
Miss Bentley: "That is correct. She could no longer be a barrier to protect the western world." Manly, 'The Twenty Year Revolution,' p.102-103
Again: ""Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."
For Stalin, Communism's post-war march across Europe could be stymied by a Germany with any military potential. What better way to obviate same than by using the Allies to obliterate....not merely accept the surrender.....but obliterate his most fearsome enemy.
The only question is why Roosevelt agreed to it....and the extension of the war by several years....
Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste
But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?
Now, I know that you are so old that you hesitate to buy green bananas.....but, try to relax....
I said I'd prove the premise....but not in bumper-stickers.
I document, and link.....
OK...your next lesson is here:
6. The OP provides an indication of the ability, the motive, and the malevolence of Soviet machinations, as does the post revealing the KGB plan to set Japan and the United States at each other's throats.
Earlier I said not to forget this, as it is most significant:
" Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury."
This was Stalin's leverage to extend WWII.
White had Morganthau agree to Stalin's plan for Germany.
Stalin and his spies in the Roosevelt administration insisted....demanded!.....that Germany not be allowed to surrender. It had to be obliterated....
....even though this meant extending the war and dramatically increasing Allies casualties.
Soviet agents engineered the Morgenthau Plan.
7. Morganthau Plan: "The Morgenthau Plan, first proposed by United States Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. in a memorandum entitled Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany, advocated that the Allied occupation of Germany following World War II include measures to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war by eliminating its armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr area. "
Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a. " Morgenthau, Henry (1944). "Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany [The original memorandum from 1944, signed by Morgenthau] (text and facsimile)".
Box 31, Folder Germany: Jan.-Sept. 1944 (i297). Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum (published 27 May 2004).
Archived from the original on 12 November 2013.
"Demilitarization of Germany: It should be the aim of the Allied Forces to accomplish the complete demilitarization of Germany in the shortest possible period of time after surrender. This means completely disarming the German Army and people (including the removal or destruction of all war material), the total destruction of the whole German armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries which are basic to military strength."
8. Now note the testimony by converted Soviet spy, Elizabeth Bentley, who revealed Stalin's plans for Germany:
Elizabeth Bentley, a former operative of the Soviet underground testified before the Senate subcommittee on August 14, 1951, naming some 80 Soviet spies. Her testimony was summarized in an FBI report, dated November 25, 1945.
Glimpse the methods and purpose of the Soviet operation:
Miss Bentley testified as follows about the Morgenthau plan, Stalin's plans for Germany:
Senator Eastland: "Did you know who drew that plan?"
Miss Bentley: "Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."
Senator Ferguson: "That was what the Communists wanted?"
Miss Bentley: "Definitely Moscow wanted them completely razed because then they would be of no help to the allies."
Senator Eastland: "What you say is that it was a Communist plot to destroy Germany and weaken her to where she could not help us?"
Miss Bentley: "That is correct. She could no longer be a barrier to protect the western world." Manly, 'The Twenty Year Revolution,' p.102-103
Again: ""Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."
For Stalin, Communism's post-war march across Europe could be stymied by a Germany with any military potential. What better way to obviate same than by using the Allies to obliterate....not merely accept the surrender.....but obliterate his most fearsome enemy.
The only question is why Roosevelt agreed to it....and the extension of the war by several years....
LOL
Does nothing to prove the assertion of your own thread that the war could have ended two years earlier
Why don't you cut and paste some more rightwing revisionist propaganda?
What would have happened if things had been different, and counter-factual world history is notoriously difficult to prove.
The world is the way it is and if it were different, we would just as clueless as to what "might have been,"
That being said, no one was in a position to end the war in 1943. The biggest navel victory of all time helped to end the war by cutting japan off from its oil.
The Battle of Leyte Gulf turned the tide. It was the largest naval battle in history, in terms both of tonnage displaced, and area traversed.
That notwithstanding, I understand what the OP is saying and I'm certainly not dismissing it.
I'm not certain that we would have been in a position to negotiate anything with any kind authority.
There was no other option, but unconditional surrender...Hitler was never going to negotiate any peace treaty.
The plan used to pursue the war allowed the US as an untested military force,, to learn how to fight the modern war of combined arms and to build up armed forces which were still weak at unit level. Hitler did the same during the 1930's with the new strategy of blitzkrieg...His troops were allowed to gain experience before taking on France..and Russia.
Hindsight is 20-20 to the uninitiated...
The Germans would have surrendered to the US and Brits in a heartbeat. They knew Stalin was a fucking savage who already starved 3 million kids in the Ukraine in 1933
Most laughable....Hitler never surrendered, even when the Ruskies were on his doorstep....Your fallacy of the truth has been demoted to another hate filled attempt to yet again play character assassin to a dead man....
This is one of the weakest conspiracy theories you have ever posted PC. That is saying a lot. Your thesis isn't even held together with a thin thread. More like old cob webs. You should know better than to use those old worn out unreliable and bogus sources to make your points here.
This is one of the weakest conspiracy theories you have ever posted PC. That is saying a lot. Your thesis isn't even held together with a thin thread. More like old cob webs. You should know better than to use those old worn out unreliable and bogus sources to make your points here.
Now....give me a chance to go over all the list you've comprised of all the mistakes in my posts so far.....
....wait.....you didn't provide any?????
(And....the best is yet to come.)
This is one of the weakest conspiracy theories you have ever posted PC. That is saying a lot. Your thesis isn't even held together with a thin thread. More like old cob webs. You should know better than to use those old worn out unreliable and bogus sources to make your points here.
Now....give me a chance to go over all the list you've comprised of all the mistakes in my posts so far.....
....wait.....you didn't provide any?????
(And....the best is yet to come.)
Yes I did. I pointed out a very key blatant omission you made in ignoring the Casablanca Conference and your apparent lack of knowledge about availability of oil resources to Japan if they had made an early attack on Russia.