Why do so many people on this board wish to return to the 18th century?

[miketx]

These liars never stop do they? I say forget it, bring on the war.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Why do so many people on this board wish to return to the 18th century? That was a time when we as a nation committed very little towards investment within our borders, very little laws or rules to protect the workers, life was far harder then today and I honestly believe the world of the time was so alien to the concepts of modern 20th and 21st century that America would be transformed into a very poor, backwards and violent society if we attempted it. It would be a outright suicide of the most advance nation on earth in many measures and a true lost to all of humanity.

Government expanded because it had too, just like every other modern state due to civilized people wanting infrastructure, wanting education for their children, clean air, water and food and a ever better standard of living. For one to argue that the 18th century was superior is the height of insanity within my mind, but that is exactly what extreme conservatism is bitching for. So you'd rather put your trust in the same corporations that pollute the environment in india then to have the government fine the bastards and give them a good reason to stop??? So you'd rather businesses have the power to refuse payment to work or set up sweat shops while you smile and say get a job. WTF is wrong with you? I say this because it could be you or your children that has little choice for employment! Why make life worse for yourself?


I could keep going on down the list on why the concepts of the 18th century would be a nightmare to the American people but I'll stop here. Lets just say that it isn't preferable and I really wish some people would see the benefits in living within a society that gives a shit about things.

/---- Congratulations OP. Your post has been selected as Straw Man Argument of the Day. You can collect your participation trophy on the way out.

 

[miketx]

The constitution. Now, wait for it, the attack will come!

And in what century was the Constitution written?

There you go! Just as I predicted. You clowns are like an open book. You need to go back to shill school.

 

[rightwinger]

Elected representatives did not "represent" the slaves. So why should slaves count on how many representatives you are allocated?

Hence my argument the south should have pushed for a 3/5ths compromise of horses and pigs. Property is property, why should a slave have more electoral college influence than a horse.

Very true

 

[miketx]

The regressives are arguing among themselves about slavery and civil rights.

 

[Boss]

Some will inevitably chime in here... oh yeah, what about the SLAVES? Okay... it was our system and our fundamental principles which ultimately prevailed in ending slavery. It took a while, we had to fight a bloody war, but eventually the principles of liberty prevailed.

The principles of liberty were thwarted by the constitution. It enshrined slavery, 3/5ths compromise, prohibition of legislating against slavery for 12 years, even the electoral college that gave small states, collectively more power than big states, so the big states couldn't legislate freedom.

You are wrong on virtually every inane point you are trying to make here. The Constitution did NOT enshrine slavery. It specifically ended the slave trade. The 3/5 compromise was to prevent Southern slave populations from being counted in apportioning congressional representation which would have given Southern states far more political power than Northern states. The electoral college was to prevent states with larger populations from ruling over everyone. The largest population states of the time were the slave states.

Again, you have to understand that slavery was more of an economic issue than a social issue in the mid 1800s. Modern progressives like to imagine a scenario where the righteous north was standing up for freedom of black people and the deplorable south was rebelling against that. This is just a flat out fallacy. The primary issue was economical. Slaves weren't even considered "people" by the United States Supreme Court and they certainly weren't considered people with constitutional rights of citizens. Even after they were freed, it took another century to gain their civil rights.

BUT... It was the foundation and principles on which this country was established that ultimately prevailed.

Slavery was an economic issue
Without the rise of the cotton industry in the early 1800s, slavery would have disappeared

But there was money to be made and cotton was king. Plantation owners were the equivalent of billionaires. God forbid they actually share their wealth with those who created it

Northern industrialists were making bank on Southern cotton. Yes, plantation owners did well... they made up about 2% of the Southern population. "Wealth sharing" was one of the ideas our framers rejected in favor of "individual liberty" and "free enterprise"

 

[rightwinger]

Some will inevitably chime in here... oh yeah, what about the SLAVES? Okay... it was our system and our fundamental principles which ultimately prevailed in ending slavery. It took a while, we had to fight a bloody war, but eventually the principles of liberty prevailed.

The principles of liberty were thwarted by the constitution. It enshrined slavery, 3/5ths compromise, prohibition of legislating against slavery for 12 years, even the electoral college that gave small states, collectively more power than big states, so the big states couldn't legislate freedom.

You are wrong on virtually every inane point you are trying to make here. The Constitution did NOT enshrine slavery. It specifically ended the slave trade. The 3/5 compromise was to prevent Southern slave populations from being counted in apportioning congressional representation which would have given Southern states far more political power than Northern states. The electoral college was to prevent states with larger populations from ruling over everyone. The largest population states of the time were the slave states.

Again, you have to understand that slavery was more of an economic issue than a social issue in the mid 1800s. Modern progressives like to imagine a scenario where the righteous north was standing up for freedom of black people and the deplorable south was rebelling against that. This is just a flat out fallacy. The primary issue was economical. Slaves weren't even considered "people" by the United States Supreme Court and they certainly weren't considered people with constitutional rights of citizens. Even after they were freed, it took another century to gain their civil rights.

BUT... It was the foundation and principles on which this country was established that ultimately prevailed.

Slavery was an economic issue
Without the rise of the cotton industry in the early 1800s, slavery would have disappeared

But there was money to be made and cotton was king. Plantation owners were the equivalent of billionaires. God forbid they actually share their wealth with those who created it

Northern industrialists were making bank on Southern cotton. Yes, plantation owners did well... they made up about 2% of the Southern population. "Wealth sharing" was one of the ideas our framers rejected in favor of "individual liberty" and "free enterprise"

Their immense wealth was built on free labor

Slaves planted the cotton, cultivated it, picked it, took it to market
They were not entitled to "free enterprise"

 

[mudwhistle]

The constitution. Now, wait for it, the attack will come!

And in what century was the Constitution written?

Which part?

The Constitution has an amendment process. It is a document that was written over centuries.

 

[Correll]

Why do so many people on this board wish to return to the 18th century? That was a time when we as a nation committed very little towards investment within our borders, very little laws or rules to protect the workers, life was far harder then today and I honestly believe the world of the time was so alien to the concepts of modern 20th and 21st century that America would be transformed into a very poor, backwards and violent society if we attempted it. It would be a outright suicide of the most advance nation on earth in many measures and a true lost to all of humanity.

Government expanded because it had too, just like every other modern state due to civilized people wanting infrastructure, wanting education for their children, clean air, water and food and a ever better standard of living. For one to argue that the 18th century was superior is the height of insanity within my mind, but that is exactly what extreme conservatism is bitching for. So you'd rather put your trust in the same corporations that pollute the environment in india then to have the government fine the bastards and give them a good reason to stop??? So you'd rather businesses have the power to refuse payment to work or set up sweat shops while you smile and say get a job. WTF is wrong with you? I say this because it could be you or your children that has little choice for employment! Why make life worse for yourself?


I could keep going on down the list on why the concepts of the 18th century would be a nightmare to the American people but I'll stop here. Lets just say that it isn't preferable and I really wish some people would see the benefits in living within a society that gives a shit about things.

How about you share with US a current example of your claim?

 

[Boss]

Their immense wealth was built on free labor

Slaves planted the cotton, cultivated it, picked it, took it to market
They were not entitled to "free enterprise"

I totally understand that and I think it's a terrible thing. But it wasn't just the plantation owners who profited. It was the entire nation. Cotton was nicknamed "King Cotton" for a reason. It was our #1 export and foundation of our entire national economy. Not to mention, #2 and #3 were tobacco and sugar cane, which slaves were also required to provide the labor for. But our #4 export was textiles made in the North with cotton produced by slave labor. So the entire economy was driven by slavery. It wasn't just this handful of slave owners who were profiting, it was the entire nation.

This is why it was virtually impossible to abolish slavery early on. We simply couldn't afford to do without the labor slaves provided. For many years, this issue troubled people because they could sense that it was immoral and wrong. Adams called it "a necessary evil" and our courts and congress upheld the institution for 85 years before there was ever a CSA. To blame it all on the South is simply scapegoating.

Now, back to what MY point has been, it was the brilliant and genius construction of the Constitution which enabled us to eventually recognize freedom and liberty for the slaves. The war didn't end slavery, the 13th Amendment did.

 

[rightwinger]

Their immense wealth was built on free labor

Slaves planted the cotton, cultivated it, picked it, took it to market
They were not entitled to "free enterprise"

I totally understand that and I think it's a terrible thing. But it wasn't just the plantation owners who profited. It was the entire nation. Cotton was nicknamed "King Cotton" for a reason. It was our #1 export and foundation of our entire national economy. Not to mention, #2 and #3 were tobacco and sugar cane, which slaves were also required to provide the labor for. But our #4 export was textiles made in the North with cotton produced by slave labor. So the entire economy was driven by slavery. It wasn't just this handful of slave owners who were profiting, it was the entire nation.

This is why it was virtually impossible to abolish slavery early on. We simply couldn't afford to do without the labor slaves provided. For many years, this issue troubled people because they could sense that it was immoral and wrong. Adams called it "a necessary evil" and our courts and congress upheld the institution for 85 years before there was ever a CSA. To blame it all on the South is simply scapegoating.

Now, back to what MY point has been, it was the brilliant and genius construction of the Constitution which enabled us to eventually recognize freedom and liberty for the slaves. The war didn't end slavery, the 13th Amendment did.

The Constitution ducked the issue and it ended up costing us 600,000 lives to fix the problem

 

[Redfish]

Their immense wealth was built on free labor

Slaves planted the cotton, cultivated it, picked it, took it to market
They were not entitled to "free enterprise"

I totally understand that and I think it's a terrible thing. But it wasn't just the plantation owners who profited. It was the entire nation. Cotton was nicknamed "King Cotton" for a reason. It was our #1 export and foundation of our entire national economy. Not to mention, #2 and #3 were tobacco and sugar cane, which slaves were also required to provide the labor for. But our #4 export was textiles made in the North with cotton produced by slave labor. So the entire economy was driven by slavery. It wasn't just this handful of slave owners who were profiting, it was the entire nation.

This is why it was virtually impossible to abolish slavery early on. We simply couldn't afford to do without the labor slaves provided. For many years, this issue troubled people because they could sense that it was immoral and wrong. Adams called it "a necessary evil" and our courts and congress upheld the institution for 85 years before there was ever a CSA. To blame it all on the South is simply scapegoating.

Now, back to what MY point has been, it was the brilliant and genius construction of the Constitution which enabled us to eventually recognize freedom and liberty for the slaves. The war didn't end slavery, the 13th Amendment did.

The Constitution ducked the issue and it ended up costing us 600,000 lives to fix the problem

you are a sick human being. We cannot judge the past by today's standards of right and wrong. Slavery was wrong, slavery of women exists today in many muslim countries---why do you condone that and want it brought to this country?

you libs are such hypocrites, you rant and rave about how terrible this country was in the 1700s and yet TODAY you encourage a vile religion that makes slaves of half of its people.

The liberal mind is a study in mental illness.

 

[rightwinger]

Their immense wealth was built on free labor

Slaves planted the cotton, cultivated it, picked it, took it to market
They were not entitled to "free enterprise"

I totally understand that and I think it's a terrible thing. But it wasn't just the plantation owners who profited. It was the entire nation. Cotton was nicknamed "King Cotton" for a reason. It was our #1 export and foundation of our entire national economy. Not to mention, #2 and #3 were tobacco and sugar cane, which slaves were also required to provide the labor for. But our #4 export was textiles made in the North with cotton produced by slave labor. So the entire economy was driven by slavery. It wasn't just this handful of slave owners who were profiting, it was the entire nation.

This is why it was virtually impossible to abolish slavery early on. We simply couldn't afford to do without the labor slaves provided. For many years, this issue troubled people because they could sense that it was immoral and wrong. Adams called it "a necessary evil" and our courts and congress upheld the institution for 85 years before there was ever a CSA. To blame it all on the South is simply scapegoating.

Now, back to what MY point has been, it was the brilliant and genius construction of the Constitution which enabled us to eventually recognize freedom and liberty for the slaves. The war didn't end slavery, the 13th Amendment did.

The Constitution ducked the issue and it ended up costing us 600,000 lives to fix the problem

you are a sick human being. We cannot judge the past by today's standards of right and wrong. Slavery was wrong, slavery of women exists today in many muslim countries---why do you condone that and want it brought to this country?

you libs are such hypocrites, you rant and rave about how terrible this country was in the 1700s and yet TODAY you encourage a vile religion that makes slaves of half of its people.

The liberal mind is a study in mental illness.

The laws and practices of other countries cannot supersede our own laws

Muslims in this country are more educated and law abiding than the general population

 

[defcon4]

Wowzer... I had no idea where Mews was going with his OP by the title...

I was thinking, you know, he may have a point here...

Why do so many people want to ban internal combustion engines or industry and throw us back into the 18th century over some pseudo-science intended to redistribute wealth?

Or, why do so many people pretend that we live in a time before modern medicine and medical science so they can say a living human organism in the state of being isn't a "person" until it magically pops out of the mother at childbirth?

Why do so many people live with an 18th century mindset about Socialism being the latest greatest thing man has ever thought up when we have the history of 150 million deaths in the 20th century to show for it?

You can imagine my disappointment to find it's just another hysterical rant from Mews.

"Socialism" however was born in the 20th Century.

Slight anachronism there, Sport.

I hate to break this to you but you should go back to the Plymouth Rock Experience. You know, the pilgrims trying out communal production of food and cultivating the land. Needless to say it went to crap and privatization returned.

 

[P@triot]

Muslims in this country are more educated and law abiding than the general population

You prove this theory correct every single day. I've never encountered anyone more ignorant of the U.S. Constitution than you are.

 

[rightwinger]

Muslims in this country are more educated and law abiding than the general population

You prove this theory correct every single day. I've never encountered anyone more ignorant of the U.S. Constitution than you are.

American Muslims make better citizens than you do

 

[The Original Tree]

Because of LibPhuckistan?

 

[bendog]

Why do so many people on this board wish to return to the 18th century? That was a time when we as a nation committed very little towards investment within our borders, very little laws or rules to protect the workers, life was far harder then today and I honestly believe the world of the time was so alien to the concepts of modern 20th and 21st century that America would be transformed into a very poor, backwards and violent society if we attempted it. It would be a outright suicide of the most advance nation on earth in many measures and a true lost to all of humanity.

Government expanded because it had too, just like every other modern state due to civilized people wanting infrastructure, wanting education for their children, clean air, water and food and a ever better standard of living. For one to argue that the 18th century was superior is the height of insanity within my mind, but that is exactly what extreme conservatism is bitching for. So you'd rather put your trust in the same corporations that pollute the environment in india then to have the government fine the bastards and give them a good reason to stop??? So you'd rather businesses have the power to refuse payment to work or set up sweat shops while you smile and say get a job. WTF is wrong with you? I say this because it could be you or your children that has little choice for employment! Why make life worse for yourself?


I could keep going on down the list on why the concepts of the 18th century would be a nightmare to the American people but I'll stop here. Lets just say that it isn't preferable and I really wish some people would see the benefits in living within a society that gives a shit about things.

Do we get our slaves back? (I had to, sorry)

 

[P@triot]

Muslims in this country are more educated and law abiding than the general population

You prove this theory correct every single day. I've never encountered anyone more ignorant of the U.S. Constitution than you are.

American Muslims make better citizens than you do

Until they are in charge and implement Sharia Law. Then you'll be crying like a scared little bitch for people like me to come rescue you.

You're catering to them now out of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" principle. Trust me you fragile little snowflake - you wouldn't last 30 seconds in the true muslim world.

 

[Boss]

The Constitution ducked the issue and it ended up costing us 600,000 lives to fix the problem

I disagree. It didn't duck the issue, it couldn't resolve the issue. With the overwhelming majority of America involved either directly or indirectly in some way with agriculture/slavery, do you think the Constitution would have ever been ratified if it banned slavery?

Now, they DID ban slave trade. You could no longer go down to Charleston and buy a slave fresh off the boat. That ended with the Constitution. This is fairly significant given the importance of slaves to the plantations at the time. The fact they did accomplish this much is a complete refutation of the argument they ducked the issue.

In addition, they worded the Constitution and preamble so that it became a righteous sword for future abolitionists. They knew that the day would come when the people would be ready to end slavery and liberate those in shackles. They gave them the tools to do that when the time came.

Of course, when that time came, justices on the courts ruled slaves were property. It was upon that ruling we had a splitting of opinions across America and suddenly, abolition became a social issue versus a state's rights issue. This is what prompted the war. It was the failure of the courts and congress to find a resolution.