Why do the God-haters persist?

[thebrucebeat]

I've blown your cover by revealing your fraud. You have never been a pastor or you would have been able to tell us the details of your supposed spiritual downfall. You couldn't come up with anything, you floundered around and tried to pass off platitudes and bullshit that had no real meaning. I even gave you a second chance to clarify detail and you once again failed to do so.

You've not put me in any corner, nor have I avoided any questions. I've clearly stated my personal beliefs in this thread and others. I have no problem going into as much detail as needed and explaining what I believe and why. You've shown a clear pattern of using religion and the religious beliefs of others against them, and your 'former pastor' lie is another example of that same tactic.

You honestly believe you can pull it off, that you can fool people into thinking you've honestly been a pastor and now you've "seen the light" ..pun intended. You figure, if people buy this bullshit, they may question their own faith, and that's what you are all about. But you blew it when you couldn't answer my question. So now you're thinking you can paint me as delusional and unhinged, which is also a very common tactic of those who have been exposed as frauds.

Without writing a book about my experiences, I answered your question. Who here but you cares about the minutiae of my leaving the ministry? You want to share a lot of details here about your personal life? How would that change the impoverished nature of your arguments?
Stop derailing with your absurd unfounded accusations.
You are very clearly nuts. You run away from many of my responses to you. You have no answers so you ignore them and try to pretend you never saw them. You do it repeatedly.
You want to try to attack the messenger, because you can't handle the message. You succeed only in making yourself look like the clown to match the avatars.

No, you failed to answer my question. I didn't ask for a book, I asked about the specific details surrounding your "convincing" moment, when you "realized" God wasn't real and everything you believed was bullshit. You did not answer. I asked again. You did not answer. Instead, you want to pass off some generalizations and platitudes that simply don't tell us much. It was a slow process over time where you came to realize the scripture couldn't support itself....blah blah blah. No details, nothing specific, just hot air.

This is how I know you're lying, you should have been able to answer my question with candid specificity. You should be able to tell us what event made you finally say "that's it, I can't believe this anymore!" But you can't tell us that because you're lying. It's another attempt at attacking Christians with their own faith, as you've come to be known for.

We see that when PmP gives you the benefit of the doubt and accepts your lie, you don't respond to the point he makes about you abandoning your leadership with your congregation, you immediately begin to spew 'statistics' about how many pastors are leaving and how many churches are closing. Your responses to what others post are revealing your true motives.

When answers are given you don't like you simply call them lies without any reason to support your accusations. Why do you think it had to be an epiphany bolt-of-lightning moment? Where in the world is that supported by any kind of data?
On the contrary, I responded clearly to PmP before citing the uncomfortable statistics.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You're asking me to commit when I keep saying I don't know. I don't know one way or another. Do I have a soul, do you, does anyone or is it all just electro-chemical brain activity? What makes people unique? I don't have any data either way for what happens to that special essence that makes humans unique when we die. I assume nothing except we die and that's it because I have no data other than people die. So far as I know, my brain simply shuts down and that's the end of the story. I'm willing to accept that may be wrong, but I need data first.

Maybe there's a soul, maybe there isn't. Maybe there's a god, maybe there' isn't. I just don't know one way or another. I'm just as agnostic about my soul as I am about god. I have no proof either way and nobody has ever produced proof.

Well I am asking you to commit because you should be able to if you're absolutely certain about your convictions. But as we can see here, you're not absolutely sure about anything. This tells me that you DO realize there is something more to you than your physical being. You recognize that is the case, but you've somehow managed to justify that whatever it is that you define as such, must be a manifestation of your mind.

You say that you need "proof" but you're only looking to physical science for proof of something that you know is not physical. You are fully aware that it's not physical, but yet, you require some form of physical validation before you can accept it exists. Now you must be aware that you're never going to find physical evidence to support something that is clearly not physical in nature, but still... that's where you've decided to let things rest. Not knowing and searching endlessly for answers in a place they can't be found.

He clearly made his case for where he is on the question. He wasn't evasive or vague.
The fact you don't like where he stands doesn't change that.
You have this habit of putting arbitrary layers you invent out of thin air on people that don't align with your personal spiritual certainty. You did it with me, and now you are doing it with him.
What massive insecurity would cause you to do that?

 

[Boss]

A soul does not need to be disproven, as it is not proven.

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

 

[Montrovant]

You're asking me to commit when I keep saying I don't know. I don't know one way or another. Do I have a soul, do you, does anyone or is it all just electro-chemical brain activity? What makes people unique? I don't have any data either way for what happens to that special essence that makes humans unique when we die. I assume nothing except we die and that's it because I have no data other than people die. So far as I know, my brain simply shuts down and that's the end of the story. I'm willing to accept that may be wrong, but I need data first.

Maybe there's a soul, maybe there isn't. Maybe there's a god, maybe there' isn't. I just don't know one way or another. I'm just as agnostic about my soul as I am about god. I have no proof either way and nobody has ever produced proof.

Well I am asking you to commit because you should be able to if you're absolutely certain about your convictions. But as we can see here, you're not absolutely sure about anything. This tells me that you DO realize there is something more to you than your physical being. You recognize that is the case, but you've somehow managed to justify that whatever it is that you define as such, must be a manifestation of your mind.

You say that you need "proof" but you're only looking to physical science for proof of something that you know is not physical. You are fully aware that it's not physical, but yet, you require some form of physical validation before you can accept it exists. Now you must be aware that you're never going to find physical evidence to support something that is clearly not physical in nature, but still... that's where you've decided to let things rest. Not knowing and searching endlessly for answers in a place they can't be found.

I wonder, does a person's soul have any affect on them? On their day to day lives, on what they do in their physical bodies? If the answer is yes, then despite the soul not being physical, evidence of it would be able to be seen and tested with physical science, wouldn't it?

 

[daws101]

false...paul's story is a redemption myth

But the story is not mythical at all. By your own evidence, the people and events were real, not mythical. You present some supposed "investigative opinion" to contradict the Biblical story, mostly by pointing out how the Biblical story leaves out some details, but it smacks of the intellectualism of a Bill Mahr or Richard Dawkins, who doesn't want to recognize the story as truth to begin with. It's full of sneering mockery and ridicule, not indicative of anyone honestly trying to find the truth. There is no objective evaluation happening here, it's more anti-Christian bullshit topped off with your proclamation of "myth" when that clearly is untrue by your own accounts.

This man, Paul, existed and was a real live person who persecuted Christians. He was like you in so many ways, except where you stumble out of your bed over to the computer to log on the Internet and persecute Christians, he mounted a donkey and rode off into the desert for days, in order to hunt down Christians and kill them. He ends up being the most prolific writer of the New Testament. What changed him? A spiritual event, spiritual nature intervened. And that's really all it takes for any of you to be converted and changed for life, your whole perspective changes.

love it when you rationalize....

 

[daws101]

this is amusing boosy is absolutely certain he has a soul......fact is no one is exactly sure what a soul is..

Revealing testimony from dawsy. No one is exactly sure what a soul is... notice this is not "there is no such thing as a soul" or anything indicating that our soul, spirit and essence of who we are doesn't exist. No science is being offered to reject the notion of a soul. Nothing to disprove we have one. Not even a clear indication that he doesn't believe souls exist. Just the admonition that "we don't know what a soul is."

However, billions and billions of humans over many thousands of years, certainly have believed they knew what a soul was and that they had one. I don't think dawsy is an exception because he doesn't commit to not having a soul, spirit or essence of who he is. Isn't it amazing how few non-believers are comfortable coming out and pronouncing this?

sorry boosy but your characterization of what I said is shit ..a giant steaming pile of it ...how bout we try some logic here, if we are not sure what a soul is and there is no objective evidence of such a thing, then the only honest thing to say about it is we don't know...however not knowing is in no way an indication or inference that one could or does exist....
the non committal nonsense you are spewing is just another ploy Feigning an imagined superior pov.

 

[thebrucebeat]

A soul does not need to be disproven, as it is not proven.

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

If you want to prove something DOES exist, does that require evidence also, or merely faith or belief?
If it does, will you now provide some for the spiritual nature?

 

[daws101]

A soul does not need to be disproven, as it is not proven.

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

the imaginary authority of the masses ploy.......not evidence ..

 

[G.T.]

A soul does not need to be disproven, as it is not proven.

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

No it hasnt been proven to billions and billions of people.

Believed by / faith in -----does not equal proven.

Gluck with that.

 

[Boss]

A soul does not need to be disproven, as it is not proven.

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

No it hasnt been proven to billions and billions of people.

Believed by / faith in -----does not equal proven.

Gluck with that.

Anything "believed" requires faith. If you believe something is proven, you have faith that it is proven, and it doesn't matter what that is.

 

[G.T.]

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

No it hasnt been proven to billions and billions of people.

Believed by / faith in -----does not equal proven.

Gluck with that.

Anything "believed" requires faith. If you believe something is proven, you have faith that it is proven, and it doesn't matter what that is.

Proving and having faith; however, are not one in the same.

The spirit is not proven.

 

[G.T.]

Also worthy of note -

A crusade to debate whether there is or is not proof of a god is not being a God hater. Hopefully some level headed people can decipher between haters and philosophical shoot the shitters.

 

[Boss]

A soul does not need to be disproven, as it is not proven.

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

If you want to prove something DOES exist, does that require evidence also, or merely faith or belief?
If it does, will you now provide some for the spiritual nature?

You can prove to yourself that things of a spiritual nature exist by examining spiritual evidence, but in order to do this, your mind has to accept that spiritual nature is real. If you don't think it is real, you can't believe any spiritual evidence.

Think about it like this... If I only believe that our reality and existence in this universe is a spiritual experience and not physically in existence, there is no physical evidence you can offer me that I can accept, because I do not believe in physical nature. You can present it and I can immediately reject it as conjecture, illusion, delusion, myth, fantasy... whatever.

I have to first acknowledge a physical existence before physical evidence means a thing to me. This doesn't change the evidence or render it invalid to anyone other than me. You can show me how gravity physically works and I can demand you show me how it spiritually works. You can show me how we have physical evidence of how planets move around suns, etc., and I can demand you show me some spiritual evidence to support that belief. What can you do? Can you ever reach me with physical science? Is it possible for me to ever acknowledge physical science if my mind is closed to that possibility?

As a thinking and rational being, you understand the various concepts of light and dark, positive and negative, matter and antimatter, good and bad, ying and yang, organic and inorganic, conscience and subconscious, life and death.... etc., etc., etc. on and on and on... but for some reason, you have this mental block where you cannot comprehend physical and spiritual. In your mind, there is only the physical and spiritual must not exist because it can't be confirmed by the physical. I can't make you accept it, I lack that power. Only YOU have that capacity as a sentient being.

 

[Boss]

No it hasnt been proven to billions and billions of people.

Believed by / faith in -----does not equal proven.

Gluck with that.

Anything "believed" requires faith. If you believe something is proven, you have faith that it is proven, and it doesn't matter what that is.

Proving and having faith; however, are not one in the same.

The spirit is not proven.

Nothing is "proven" except mathematics, and even that is only proven in our current understanding of reality in our known universe. Virtually EVERYTHING including reality itself, is a matter of faith. We believe it or we don't believe it.

 

[G.T.]

You can prove to yourself that things of a spiritual nature exist by examining spiritual evidence, but in order to do this, your mind has to accept that spiritual nature is real.

huh?



anyone?

cart before the horse
circular logic
fallacy

whoo00o geez, too many to list patna

 

[G.T.]

Anything "believed" requires faith. If you believe something is proven, you have faith that it is proven, and it doesn't matter what that is.

Proving and having faith; however, are not one in the same.

The spirit is not proven.

Nothing is "proven" except mathematics, and even that is only proven in our current understanding of reality in our known universe. Virtually EVERYTHING including reality itself, is a matter of faith. We believe it or we don't believe it.

Your previous post literally started with "you can prove"

 

[Boss]

A soul does not need to be disproven, as it is not proven.

But it has been proven to billions and billions of people over thousands and thousands of years. It hasn't been proven to YOU... but YOU aren't everyone.

If you are going to make the claim that something doesn't exist, you need to support that claim with some evidence. Whether there is proof for it or not, doesn't matter. I could argue that time and space do not exist because you've not proven they do. I could argue that reality doesn't exist because you've not proven it does. The list goes on an on. Because, in fact, only mathematics are proven absolutely, and that's just in our realization within the known universe.

the imaginary authority of the masses ploy.......not evidence ..

You look up into the sky and see a moon there. Billions of people have seen it too. Scientists have confirmed it is there and exists. We've sent rockets there and men have set foot on it. Is that authority of the masses ploy as well? What if I tell you the moon is not there? It's an illusion from God? That your so-called "physical evidence" is an "authority of the masses ploy" and not evidence?

Show me the spiritual evidence for anything you think is proven to exist in the physical world, or I will tell you it's an illusion put there by God to make you think it exists. Now, I MUST be speaking the TRUTH because you can't show me any spiritual evidence and you can't refute my argument with spiritual evidence.

Game--set--match!

 

[Boss]

Proving and having faith; however, are not one in the same.

The spirit is not proven.

Nothing is "proven" except mathematics, and even that is only proven in our current understanding of reality in our known universe. Virtually EVERYTHING including reality itself, is a matter of faith. We believe it or we don't believe it.

Your previous post literally started with "you can prove"

and it ended with "to yourself!" You need to read the entire sentence. We can indeed "prove" things to ourselves, and then we can have faith that we believe that which we've "proven" to ourselves.

 

[Boss]

You can prove to yourself that things of a spiritual nature exist by examining spiritual evidence, but in order to do this, your mind has to accept that spiritual nature is real.

huh?



anyone?

cart before the horse
circular logic
fallacy

whoo00o geez, too many to list patna

There's no "cart before the horse" or fallacy. Circular logic doesn't mean incorrect logic. If you encountered a jungle tribe deep in the heart of Africa, where they did not believe or know of anything regarding physical science, and you began trying to explain things in terms of physical science, but they just pointed to the sky and grunted at you... would you likely ever be able to convince them of any relevant scientific fact? If they rejected your concept of physical science and demanded you could ONLY appeal to spiritual evidence, could you ever make them realize physical evidence?

The same thing is happening here in reverse. You refuse to recognize spiritual evidence because you don't believe in spiritual nature. Doesn't matter what evidence I present, you will reject it because you don't believe the premise to begin with. I can't reach you with spiritual evidence, you just point to your science book and grunt.

 

[BreezeWood]

You're asking me to commit when I keep saying I don't know. I don't know one way or another. Do I have a soul, do you, does anyone or is it all just electro-chemical brain activity? What makes people unique? I don't have any data either way for what happens to that special essence that makes humans unique when we die. I assume nothing except we die and that's it because I have no data other than people die. So far as I know, my brain simply shuts down and that's the end of the story. I'm willing to accept that may be wrong, but I need data first.

Maybe there's a soul, maybe there isn't. Maybe there's a god, maybe there' isn't. I just don't know one way or another. I'm just as agnostic about my soul as I am about god. I have no proof either way and nobody has ever produced proof.

... or is it all just electro-chemical brain activity?

.

the Orchid has no "electro-chemical brain activity" - sortof, it has no pysiology at all ... True believers, excluding Boss and Newby would never confine Spirituality to a God but to the Everlasting from which it came.

the Everlasting is visible and physical for even those without vision to see.

.