Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[buttercup]

Do you have any evidence that moral codes come from gods?

I don't think you do.

Our society is evolving as all societies do.

it has nothing to do with gods

Well, if morality is objective, then it cannot come from a source that is subjective, mutable and limited.... which mankind is.

So as an atheist, you're in a bind, because atheism has no way to account for objective morality.

You either have to claim it is subjective (which means it doesn't exist, it's just a matter of opinion, and no one opinion can ever be better than any other).... Or, you have to explain where objective morality comes from, which no atheist has ever been able to do.

 

[Meriweather]

War, genocide, slavery, destruction we're really good at that stuff and we can't seem to stop.

Scripture notes that mankind chose to have the knowledge of both good and evil. It appears it is a hard lesson to learn.

 

[ding]

Just answer the question. (Hopefully you recognize it by now, but I also assume you have no clue that we've talked about this before).

Do you agree that standards exist for logical reasons?

 

[ding]

You clearly lack education. Sorry. You don't seem to know anything in technical detail.

Is that you judging me?

Textbook dunning effect.

 

[james bond]

The Bible. Christian soteriology hinges on the idea that all are "fallen" and fall far short of the glory of God.

Where do you get such nonsense lol?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Where do you get such nonsense lol?

Are you not familiar with Christianity? Romans 3:23

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

That is not the same as "flawed" is it?

Yes. Yes it is.

It is a near perfect example of flawed.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

He didn't create us "fallen" though. In the beginning, God said everything was "very good." (Genesis 1:31). The fall of man came later, when humans chose to go their own way, believing a lie instead of the truth.

But all men born NOW are born with "original sin".

 

[ding]

Yes. Yes it is.

It is a near perfect example of flawed.

So now you are arguing there can be no Creator because man isn't perfect?

 

[Meriweather]

Yes. Yes it is.

It is a near perfect example of flawed.

I haven't been able to respond as the discussion has developed and taken place. Originally a 'flaw' was applied to something as small as a snowflake (has the same root) or a small splinter. This small minutia prevented an object from being perfect.

Someone also noted that humans are far from the glory of God. Candlelight is far from the glory of the sun, but that does not make it flawed.

True, we do not have God's glory or His perfection.

But the reason I wanted to know more precisely what the poster meant by 'flawed' was to determine whether he was speaking of something the size of a snowflake or splinter, or whether the intent was humanity is horribly damaged goods.

Blues Man noted, "War, genocide, slavery, destruction we're really good at that stuff and we can't seem to stop."

Blaise Pascal (who lived in the 1600s) noted, "Justice without force is powerless; force without justice is tyrannical."

No one wants war, but all want justice. How many wars were in pursuit of justice; how many were simply tyrannical? If all of humanity got together and truly studied all our wars, would we be able to come to a unanimous agreement on which wars were for justice, and which were simply tyrannical? I doubt we could reach such an agreement.

The question then becomes, are wars of justice evidence of a human flaw or a human strength? Do we stand for justice?

 

[BreezeWood]

no - the crime of deception includes all three desert religions ...

christianity, the desert religions are that claim tablets exist from the heavens etched with 10 commandments - bing worships - when no such tablets ever existed.

That's nice.

well, not everyone agrees being deceitful is - nice ...

were you taught that as a child, bing - so sad the bible belt they practice their perverted religion in the land of plenty. almost as though they are born that way.

 

[BreezeWood]

Do you have any evidence that moral codes come from gods?

I don't think you do.

Our society is evolving as all societies do.

it has nothing to do with gods

they are metaphysical codes that created life beginning with the elements that with further development and complexity morals, fabric is required for adhesion allowing evolution change - or the substance will cease to exist.

there is a guiding lite of some sort or another - metaphysical. or perish.

 

[BreezeWood]

It's not a physical thing. There are different ideas on what it means to be created "in the image of God." One of the most common interpretations is that humans were created with certain characteristics of God. We are rational, creative beings with the ability to understand right from wrong.

My interpretation of "made in God's image" is different... I believe that being made in God’s image has to do with a unique calling or purpose. Just as God has dominion over us, God gave us dominion over the animals and this earth... but according to God's likeness. (Gen. 1:26) That means we were called to 'rule' in a godly way, in the way God rules; with sacrificial love, mercy, goodness, justice, etc. (which of course mankind has failed to do, in a monumental way, but that's another topic.)



He didn't create us flawed, He created us with free will, basically as 'clean slates.' What people do with their free will can be good or bad, but don't blame God for what people choose to do with it. I believe freedom of choice is a gift because without it we'd be nothing but robots or puppets. Obviously God didn't want that, He wants us to choose to do the right thing and to love Him willingly, on our own, not because we were pre-programmed to like robots. What good would that be?

our image, is that the same as ... image of god.

“Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness;

the first is a 4th century forgery - as the same that follows after the short respit of truth, our image - the 4th century christians, buttercup made up for their own self centered relevancy ...

in fact physiology is the same for all beings on planet earth and all have a spiritual content that is unique to itself, for which a single blade of grass 200 million years ago and for all eternity will never be the same.

the relevancy is to separate the spiritual content, free ones spirit before the physical physiology expires to rejoin all those that made us ... not one god.

 

[james bond]

Are you not familiar with Christianity? Romans 3:23

Yes, all have sinned, so what must we do?

 

[Blues Man]

1. Moses
2. Mohammad
3. Siddhartha
4. Govinda
5. Dalai Lama
6. Gilgamesh
7. Homer
8. Jesus of Nazareth

To name a few who all say they got their divine inspiration from God. Or, I'm sorry, did you expect actual first hand eye witnesses?


That is just YOUR opinion. Tell it to Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Malawi, Niger, Sri Lanka, Yemen, Mauritania, Somalia, Afghanistan, Comoros, Egypt, Guinea, Laos, Morocco, Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia, Cameroon, Jordan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Philippines, Senegal, Algeria, Chad, Ghana, Mali, Qatar, Republic of the Congo, Rwanda, and Zambia. And these are just the countries which average between 95 and 99% religious.

Even the United States, the 104th most religious country, still has a preponderance of 69% of its people who are religious, a clear majority. And the 103 countries more religious than us have even MORE religious people.

World’s Most (And Least) Religious Countries, 2024 - CEOWORLD magazine

According to a survey conducted by CEOWORLD magazine, Somalia has once again been ranked as the most religious country in the world. The survey, which included responses from over 820,000 individuals worldwide, ranked 148 countries based on their level of religiousness. Niger came in second...

ceoworld.biz

So your claim that religion and God place no role in governing society is nothing but bull hockey!

But interesting that as you look to the LEAST religious nations, they are all the countries that Democrats most align with!

Just so you know the Buddha never claimed divine inspiration and Buddhism in a nontheistic philosophy.

And the only thing these other people did was CLAIM they were inspired by a god. There is no proof of that whatsoever.

And where did I say religion played no role in society? Religion has been used to control people since men invented religion.

 

[Blues Man]

It's not a physical thing. There are different ideas on what it means to be created "in the image of God." One of the most common interpretations is that humans were created with certain characteristics of God. We are rational, creative beings with the ability to understand right from wrong.

My interpretation of "made in God's image" is different... I believe that being made in God’s image has to do with a unique calling or purpose. Just as God has dominion over us, God gave us dominion over the animals and this earth... but according to God's likeness. (Gen. 1:26) That means we were called to 'rule' in a godly way, in the way God rules; with sacrificial love, mercy, goodness, justice, etc. (which of course mankind has failed to do, in a monumental way, but that's another topic.)



He didn't create us flawed, He created us with free will, basically as 'clean slates.' What people do with their free will can be good or bad, but don't blame God for what people choose to do with it. I believe freedom of choice is a gift because without it we'd be nothing but robots or puppets. Obviously God didn't want that, He wants us to choose to do the right thing and to love Him willingly, on our own, not because we were pre-programmed to like robots. What good would that be?

Everyone is born with a clean slate because that's the nature of our neural development.

It has nothing to do with any gods.

 

[Blues Man]

Well, if morality is objective, then it cannot come from a source that is subjective, mutable and limited.... which mankind is.

So as an atheist, you're in a bind, because atheism has no way to account for objective morality.

You either have to claim it is subjective (which means it doesn't exist, it's just a matter of opinion, and no one opinion can ever be better than any other).... Or, you have to explain where objective morality comes from, which no atheist has ever been able to do.

Morality is subjective and always has been. You can see that because morals change and vary between societies.

and I'm not an atheist as I have explained many times.

I do not claim that gods exist or not because there is no proof.

If gods exist it is my opinion that the gods of the OT, NT , Koran etc are poor if not incorrect manifestations of them.

 

[Blues Man]

Scripture notes that mankind chose to have the knowledge of both good and evil. It appears it is a hard lesson to learn.

Any psychology text says the same thing.

It's our nature to do what we do it has nothing to do with gods.

humans are flawed. We are are now so out of tune with our environment that we are the prime driver its destruction. IF a god gave us this planet to be stewards we have failed miserably.

There has never been anytime on this planet when there was not some war going on. Even the god of the OT was a warmonger.

But people need to think they will be forgiven for their most reprehensible behavior so they use a god as a hedge against their own bad acts.

 

[ding]

well, not everyone agrees being deceitful is - nice ...

View attachment 686746

were you taught that as a child, bing - so sad the bible belt they practice their perverted religion in the land of plenty. almost as though they are born that way.

That's nice.

 

[Meriweather]

It's our nature to do what we do it has nothing to do with gods.

And then you go on to talk about "gods".