Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[dblack]

No quotas make sure we don’t get swamped and protect our freedom to choose who comes in.

"Freedom to choose who comes in"

That's not freedom. That's authoritarian state power.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Foreigners are no more a part of the free market than unions are. We have a pretty successful supply and demand process providing somebody doesn't throw a monkey wrench into the system. Cheating the system is hardly free market.

Pretty ironic that you criticize unions, given that the protectionism you're clamoring for is exactly the kind of things unions demand. Hungry people willing to do your job for less IS the free market.

A free global market perhaps, but our country is not the world. Free markets in our country exist and survive by the rules governing the free market.

Now if you're going to insist that our country is a global free market, the only way to accomplish that is a borderless society, and then America would cease to exist. Billions of people would flock here because there are no laws stopping them. Then Americans would have to find someplace to move to.

In the United States, we have global trade, and even that has had some devastating effects. But global trade is not the same as a global free market.

 

[dblack]

We can end these threads now. Trump says the wall is just about finished.

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
Mexico is paying for the Wall through the new USMCA Trade Deal. Much of the Wall has already been fully renovated or built. We have done a lot of work. $5.6 Billion Dollars that House has approved is very little in comparison to the benefits of National Security. Quick payback!

5:35 AM - 2 Jan 2019

And the wall has stopped illegal immigration. Problem solved. Once again Donald has saved America.

Mission Accomplished!

 

[dblack]

Foreigners are no more a part of the free market than unions are. We have a pretty successful supply and demand process providing somebody doesn't throw a monkey wrench into the system. Cheating the system is hardly free market.

Pretty ironic that you criticize unions, given that the protectionism you're clamoring for is exactly the kind of things unions demand. Hungry people willing to do your job for less IS the free market.

A free global market perhaps, but our country is not the world. Free markets in our country exist and survive by the rules governing the free market.

Now if you're going to insist that our country is a global free market, the only way to accomplish that is a borderless society, and then America would cease to exist. Billions of people would flock here because there are no laws stopping them. Then Americans would have to find someplace to move to.

In the United States, we have global trade, and even that has had some devastating effects. But global trade is not the same as a global free market.

So, you like freedom, except when you don't.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, I dislike illegals. Regular immigrants are cool.

Then we can surely count on you to increase (or remove) immigration quotas and bureaucratic barriers to legal immigration, right?

Name me one civilized society that does more for immigration and helping their neighbors than the United States.....just one.

 

[Taz]

No quotas make sure we don’t get swamped and protect our freedom to choose who comes in.

"Freedom to choose who comes in"

That's not freedom. That's authoritarian state power.

Go pick some fruit, then get out of here before I call ICE on you.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Foreigners are no more a part of the free market than unions are. We have a pretty successful supply and demand process providing somebody doesn't throw a monkey wrench into the system. Cheating the system is hardly free market.

Pretty ironic that you criticize unions, given that the protectionism you're clamoring for is exactly the kind of things unions demand. Hungry people willing to do your job for less IS the free market.

A free global market perhaps, but our country is not the world. Free markets in our country exist and survive by the rules governing the free market.

Now if you're going to insist that our country is a global free market, the only way to accomplish that is a borderless society, and then America would cease to exist. Billions of people would flock here because there are no laws stopping them. Then Americans would have to find someplace to move to.

In the United States, we have global trade, and even that has had some devastating effects. But global trade is not the same as a global free market.

So, you like freedom, except when you don't.

Our freedom is contained within our borders. Our freedom is not world policy. WE have freedoms and rights--the rest of the world does not. They make their own freedoms and rights as they see fit.

 

[dblack]

No, I dislike illegals. Regular immigrants are cool.

Then we can surely count on you to increase (or remove) immigration quotas and bureaucratic barriers to legal immigration, right?

Name me one civilized society that does more for immigration and helping their neighbors than the United States.....just one.

Why would you want the US to be like other nations? The US is exceptional, and it should stay that way.

 

[dblack]

No quotas make sure we don’t get swamped and protect our freedom to choose who comes in.

"Freedom to choose who comes in"

That's not freedom. That's authoritarian state power.

Go pick some fruit, then get out of here before I call ICE on you.

Giving up so soon?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So it's not actually a wall and it's not actually going across the southern border?

What exactly are we shutting down the government over??

5.8 billion dollars.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, I dislike illegals. Regular immigrants are cool.

Then we can surely count on you to increase (or remove) immigration quotas and bureaucratic barriers to legal immigration, right?

Name me one civilized society that does more for immigration and helping their neighbors than the United States.....just one.

Why would you want the US to be like other nations? The US is exceptional, and it should stay that way.

And we are exceptional, and always have been. No other nation is more exceptional than we are.

However exceptional comes with limits. Exceptional doesn't mean we are an open house for the world to take advantage of.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No quotas make sure we don’t get swamped and protect our freedom to choose who comes in.

"Freedom to choose who comes in"

That's not freedom. That's authoritarian state power.

Is it authoritarian when you lock your doors before you leave the house? Is it authoritarian to have an alarm on your home? Is it authoritarian for you to fence off your property? Is it authoritarian to have a car alarm on your vehicle?

 

[Flopper]

If they can support themselves, all that means is that they will be taking a job from an American. We don't need any more immigrants, period, educated or not.

We have 9 million jobs available now, and you seem to have skipped over them having skills we need.

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If you want wages to go up, then you need to restrict the supply of labor. Expanding the supply of labor can't fail to make wages go down or remain stagnant.

You want businesses to flourish and be able to expand, they need to be able to fill positions with qualified people to do that. Merit based immigration is a win win for the country. This thing we're doing now is a big negative.
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Merit based immigration is invariably a point based system, based on such factors as education level, wealth, connection with the country, language fluency, existing job offer, or others. Of course the devil is in the details. Such a system could be used to severely limit immigration or increase it.

If such a system were used to provide better educated, better skilled workers in the numbers America will need in the future, then we would have to abandon the current country limits which could result in a large migration of Asians.

And that would be bad, how?

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Whether abandoning country limits would be good or bad depends on other immigration criteria.

 

[dblack]

No quotas make sure we don’t get swamped and protect our freedom to choose who comes in.

"Freedom to choose who comes in"

That's not freedom. That's authoritarian state power.

Is it authoritarian when you lock your doors before you leave the house? Is it authoritarian to have an alarm on your home? Is it authoritarian for you to fence off your property? Is it authoritarian to have a car alarm on your vehicle?

"Authoritarian" applies to government. Individuals aren't empowered to employ violence and can't be authoritarian.

 

[bripat9643]

You mean they limit the freedom of foreigners to take a big crap on America? Why should I be against that?

Because when government violates freedom, it does so for everyone. This is the concept you couldn't get through your head in the "war" on terror nonsense. This is why the Constitution doesn't limit protections to citizens.

The Constitution doesn't give foreigners the right to cross the border, moron.

 

[dblack]

You mean they limit the freedom of foreigners to take a big crap on America? Why should I be against that?

Because when government violates freedom, it does so for everyone. This is the concept you couldn't get through your head in the "war" on terror nonsense. This is why the Constitution doesn't limit protections to citizens.

The Constitution doesn't give foreigners the right to cross the border, moron.

The Constitution doesn't "give" anyone rights, fascist.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No quotas make sure we don’t get swamped and protect our freedom to choose who comes in.

"Freedom to choose who comes in"

That's not freedom. That's authoritarian state power.

Is it authoritarian when you lock your doors before you leave the house? Is it authoritarian to have an alarm on your home? Is it authoritarian for you to fence off your property? Is it authoritarian to have a car alarm on your vehicle?

"Authoritarian" applies to government. Individuals aren't empowered to employ violence and can't be authoritarian.

Sure they can. When your boss tells you to perform a task you really hate, that's authoritarian. When your landlord says you can't have a dog in the apartment, that's authoritarian. If your neighbors call the cops on you because of a loud party past dark, that's authoritarian.

 

[Lesh]

We still have a government shut down...and Trump is claiming it's because of a wall

But I guess the Trumpers don't want to talk about it any more since well...it's not actually a wall but a fence...and it's not actually going to run across the whole southern border...because ya know....like the sane ones of us have been saying...that would be a stupid waste of money that pretty much could never happen anyway

It will be a wall in some places and a fence in others. It depends on the application of the area. Trump isn't an engineer.

Furthermore it's the Democrats stopping Trump from what he would like to spend, so put the blame where it really belongs.

From what I'm hearing now it will be a fence in some places and nothing in others...which is what we have now.

In fact we haven't even spent the appropriation that was made last year

 

[dblack]

No quotas make sure we don’t get swamped and protect our freedom to choose who comes in.

"Freedom to choose who comes in"

That's not freedom. That's authoritarian state power.

Is it authoritarian when you lock your doors before you leave the house? Is it authoritarian to have an alarm on your home? Is it authoritarian for you to fence off your property? Is it authoritarian to have a car alarm on your vehicle?

"Authoritarian" applies to government. Individuals aren't empowered to employ violence and can't be authoritarian.

Sure they can. When your boss tells you to perform a task you really hate, that's authoritarian.

No, it's not. Authoritarian describes a mode of government. I know liberals want to pretend that employers are oppressors, but the truth is that we can tell them to piss off whenever we like. And we won't be arrest or thrown in jail for doing so.

 

[OKTexas]

The government sets quotas based on several factors. If they decide we need more, then ok. But not just because of nothing.

Our laws should protect freedom, not privilege.

What does that have to do with quotas?

Quotas limit freedom. That's the point of imposing them.

quotas on foreign labor don't limit my freedom in any way.

If you want to cross the border they do. If you, and some of the other wall cowards here, get your way, our nation will become a police state where everyone is under suspicion of "being illegal". Do you remember back when you used to think of yourself as a libertarian?

So tell the class, how many of the 1.4 billion people that say they want to come here should we let in? No bullshit, just give us a number.

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