Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[OKTexas]

Your anecdotal stories don't hold true across the country, I have 5 guys numbers, all white, all citizens, I can call for handyman work, brush clearing and other things. I have 5 acres and the forest is constantly trying to reclaim cleared areas.

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Anecdotal? They do tv segments on it here. It's statewide and we ran # 4 in the nation for the number of undocumented foreigners.

Yeah, it's anecdotal, what is happening in your State doesn't necessarily apply to others. If they're running TV segments I'm sure the print media is doing it also, yet you haven't provided one link to substantiate your claims.

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Liar liar pants on fire. Throughout this thread I've provided irrefutable links - just not going to keep looking them up and repeating them over and over. It's childish and a waste of time. READ THE DAMN THREAD.

I don't recall a link on this particular topic, but I be glad to take a look if you can point to one.

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Okay, slyhunter threw in the towel. I'm not going to research that entire conversation and then read all the previous posts for you to answer a question. Repeat the question you want answered.

All you have to do is read that last few posts in this string, is that too much of a challenge?

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[OKTexas]

BTW while the Democrat party is full of socialists, not all liberals are socialists. Read up on Thomas Payne to see what a true Liberal is. I should stop using that word as an insult.

I use regressives, it fits better.

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[OKTexas]

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

So, like Ray, you think that rights are inalienable? Do you, like he, believe that our Rights come through mortal men who can vote for or against what they will or will not give you in terms of Liberty?

So, when an employer hires a foreigner, how do you justify taking away his Rights? As I see it, owning private property is one of the greatest hallmarks of our constitutional Republic. Do you disagree with that?

That's a strawman, if you want to argue the theoretical it belongs elsewhere, this is a discussion of what is. You have yet to explain how the existing wall on 1/3rd to the border is effecting your or any one else's rights. Or how an additional wall on 10% more would change anything related to rights.

If an employer hires and illegal he just became a criminal, like the person he hired. Criminals forfeit their rights.

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He believes that if an employer wants to hire someone for $1 an hour and someone is desperate enough to take the job that the employer should be free to do so. That not allowing the employer to hire slave labor is the equivalent of having a socialistic society.

I bet this guy is under the age of 25 and was practicing debate for his debate class and is a very immature guy.

No he's at least late 60's and I agree that government shouldn't interfere with an employment contracts between citizens or legal residence. Illegals are a totally different story.

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[Flopper]

I never fucking said that moron.

Did I say you specifically said it OR have I not made my point clear to you? I'm not here to sell you any point of view. I'm trying to find the consensus. If you interfere and want to debate me when I don't want to debate (this IS a discussion forum), then it is only logical to say, birds of a feather flock together. So, instead of seeing how many posts you can make, make your point and move on. I'm debating roughly eight people at a time and am NOT going to continue answering the same questions over and over. Read the freaking thread and quit posting so much if you want answers.

I'm in 15 different threads and you're having trouble dealing with just one.

Are you being attacked to the point that, at 80 wpm, for every one post you respond to, another ten posts are created that are directed toward you?

You worry about the current one and when finished move on to the next.
Maybe you should write fewer dissertations and just get to the point, you don't think the wall will prevent people from coming into our country and I think it will stop a lot of them.

I KNOW it will not prevent crossings and have written "dissertations" as you call them with irrefutable empirical evidence.

You can not build a wall on less than 10 percent of the border and expect any real impact because migrants will cross the 90 percent where there is no wall.

The rebuttal is once we complete one section we build more. Will that ever occur? By the time this part of the wall is complete we have another president who may not be Trump. Even if Trump wins he’s very likely to be facing a divide congress.

The bottom line is that the wall will never be competed and increased border security and improving condition south of the border will have reduced illegal immigration so low no one will care.


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[toobfreak]

Because it fundamentally changes America from being a beacon of Freedom for the world to a country that aspires to be a gated community.

Yep, a gated community that welcomes the worthy.

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More than that, the "gate" has always been there in some form as the method by which we preserve ourselves AS the beacon of freedom! The FREEDOM is for those of us living IN the United States. The freedom has NEVER been about others outside the USA just being free to walk in here and do any damn thing they choose. That might be "free" for them, but represents a HUGE loss of freedom for Americans, thus ultimately destroying America itself for the freedom it tries to preserve and represent.

 

[toobfreak]

Just how would this wall stop anything?

The exact same way a wall stops you every time you run into one. You really think you just dig a tunnel under a wall ten, twenty feet under ground and hundreds of feet long? That's a major undertaking, takes a lot of people, work and time and sooner or later gets detected. You really think it is an easy thing to carry a 40 foot ladder out into the middle of nowhere in the desert, climb up a 30 foot wall designed to make it hard to sit on top, pull the ladder up and over the top and down the other side to get down? Only young, healthy, strong people can even try to do that, the kind of people that should be staying in Mexico trying to make a better way of life for their people rather than skipping out on it. AND the kind of people most apt to do crime here or be potential terrorists.

 

[toobfreak]

sean handity

Yep. Another Ace, Ivy Leaguer here!

More like another lefty goon with about an 8th grade education collecting carts at Walmart tapping on his smartphone.

 

[toobfreak]

This country was made with immigration.

CORRECTION, you drunken, beer bottle booze hound, it was made with LEGAL, documented, vetted immigration.

 

[toobfreak]

Because it fundamentally changes America from being a beacon of Freedom for the world to a country that aspires to be a gated community.

Hey asswipe, that freedom you speak of was why people wanted to come here from all over the world, because the freedom was inside America for Americans to live and enjoy. It was never about any "freedom" for any ol' indigent BUM like you to just waltz in here with your sick, diseased, fly-infested family looking for support and a free handout.

We are a Beacon of Freedom IN the World, you Dolt, NOT a Beacon of Freedom FOR the World!

 

[OKTexas]

Because it fundamentally changes America from being a beacon of Freedom for the world to a country that aspires to be a gated community.

Yep, a gated community that welcomes the worthy.

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More than that, the "gate" has always been there in some form as the method by which we preserve ourselves AS the beacon of freedom! The FREEDOM is for those of us living IN the United States. The freedom has NEVER been about others outside the USA just being free to walk in here and do any damn thing they choose. That might be "free" for them, but represents a HUGE loss of freedom for Americans, thus ultimately destroying America itself for the freedom it tries to preserve and represent.

The US has the most generous legal immigration policy of all the countries in the world. That's not good enough for the commies.

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[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Look to the facts from a study, on the cost burdens surrounding illegal immigrants.

“At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion.”

So let's fix that. And let's do it without indulging the shackles of big government.

The problems we have are the welfare state and birth-right citizenship. Neither of those requires the Berlin wall.

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

The studies of immigration, legal or illegal seem to always focuses 1st generation immigrants since they differ the most from the general population. Second generation immigrants are much closer to the general population. For example, in 2008 2nd generation immigrants earned and average of $42,297, 32% higher than their parents. There educational level was higher than national average. Their use of social programs like their parents was less than than than the national average and their violent crime rate was well below the national average.

Third generation immigrants are statistically about the same as the general population since most American identify themselves as third generation immigrants. For Hispanic immigrants only 7% of third generation consider themselves Hispanic, Africans 13%, and Asians 15%.
Majority of Americans Identify Themselves as Third Generation Americans

Our own history has shown, those immigrants who came here from overseas (Africans, Asians) had to go through a national check point at Ellis Island before being allowed to enter the United States.
In 1917, Congress approved the measure stating people who wished to settle in the U.S. now had to pass a literacy test. Those who came into the United States had to prove they could be productive members of society, and most immigrants at that time had to learn English. Basic English is still expected among those who want to be American citizens today. The point of the wall is to show other nations also developed immigration policies that did not include an open border, however these nations established their chosen method where they have a greater chance to see HOW MANY immigrants were entering their country. Allowing certain designated “checkpoints” is nothing new to the United States, as well as these kind of restrictions are even found today whenever any foreigner wishes to enter into Canada. Every nation has immigration policies and laws that they each enforce. Choosing to have certain entry points on our southern border, is no different than restricting immigration of those who cross our northern border.

 

[dblack]

He believes that if an employer wants to hire someone for $1 an hour and someone is desperate enough to take the job that the employer should be free to do so.

Yes. That's how freedom and free markets work. People get to make their own decisions without asking the state for permission.

That not allowing the employer to hire slave labor is the equivalent of having a socialistic society.

Comparing voluntary employment to slavery is an insult the memory of real slaves. But the policies you're advocating do lean socialist. Wage and price controls are an important step in taking over the economy with government.

 

[danielpalos]

Just how would this wall stop anything?

People don't have ladders?

People don't have shovels?

How would an airplane land with a wall on the runway?

How does a wall work on a pier?

most of these illegals can't afford to buy food, they're not going to buy ladders. they are unfit and unhealthy and the harder we make it to get here the more likely they'll stay where they're at.

refugees are not illegal; and have to be processed individually.

 

[danielpalos]

Just how would this wall stop anything?

The exact same way a wall stops you every time you run into one. You really think you just dig a tunnel under a wall ten, twenty feet under ground and hundreds of feet long? That's a major undertaking, takes a lot of people, work and time and sooner or later gets detected. You really think it is an easy thing to carry a 40 foot ladder out into the middle of nowhere in the desert, climb up a 30 foot wall designed to make it hard to sit on top, pull the ladder up and over the top and down the other side to get down? Only young, healthy, strong people can even try to do that, the kind of people that should be staying in Mexico trying to make a better way of life for their people rather than skipping out on it. AND the kind of people most apt to do crime here or be potential terrorists.

there is no express wall building clause and we don't have an immigration clause. it is a naturalization clause. we should have no "illegal" problem; only lousy right wing management does that.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

He believes that if an employer wants to hire someone for $1 an hour and someone is desperate enough to take the job that the employer should be free to do so.

Yes. That's how freedom and free markets work. People get to make their own decisions without asking the state for permission.

That not allowing the employer to hire slave labor is the equivalent of having a socialistic society.

Comparing voluntary employment to slavery is an insult the memory of real slaves. But the policies you're advocating do lean socialist. Wage and price controls are an important step in taking over the economy with government.

Hiring who you desire is free market, but bringing people in for you to choose from is not. That is up to government. Once they are approved to be here, then you can decide to hire them or not. If you want to hire people outside our country, then move your business there.


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[Porter Rockwell]

Now you are bringing in reinforcements because yo cannot defend a position you realize is wrong. Okay, I accept your concession of defeat.

You are so full of shit. You sound like a Liberal.

You should know because everything you've posted leads back to socialism - which is liberalism, Since you cannot answer questions, I accept your concession of defeat.

The fact that you don't like my answers does not mean I did not answer. Your bolded statement shows me you are actually immature. I'm not trying to win a game here just stating facts.

Deflections are not facts. Going to bed, OKTexas has to get someone else to help him try and take me down.

Hows this for a poll
A poll on Fox showed 50% of Independents supported a wall, vast majority of GOP, only Dems didn't
So apparently you lied about most of the people polled being against the wall.

I don't limit myself to just a single thread.

LMAO. There are more registered Democrats than Repubs and when nearly a quarter of the Repubs are going left, the total numbers are against the wall. You aren't ready for this discussion. If you losing even on Fox, even by slim numbers, you have a problem.

We aren't a democracy, maybe you didn't know, so there is the issue of Liberty.

 

[Taz]

No, we also have the USA.

true Gamorans and true Sodomites make better citizens than false Christians.

I'm not Christian. Now go assfuck another donkey, you know you want to.

you have no truth value; who cares what you think if you have no witnesses.

Is it your family that's throwing rocks at US border guards?

nope; there is no immigration clause and we have a First Amendment.

We can keep ANYONE out of our country that we feel like. Nobody has a "right" to come here.

 

[danielpalos]

true Gamorans and true Sodomites make better citizens than false Christians.

I'm not Christian. Now go assfuck another donkey, you know you want to.

you have no truth value; who cares what you think if you have no witnesses.

Is it your family that's throwing rocks at US border guards?

nope; there is no immigration clause and we have a First Amendment.

We can keep ANYONE out of our country that we feel like. Nobody has a "right" to come here.

there is no need to keep people out with a naturalization clause.

 

[Taz]

I'm not Christian. Now go assfuck another donkey, you know you want to.

you have no truth value; who cares what you think if you have no witnesses.

Is it your family that's throwing rocks at US border guards?

nope; there is no immigration clause and we have a First Amendment.

We can keep ANYONE out of our country that we feel like. Nobody has a "right" to come here.

there is no need to keep people out with a naturalization clause.

So if a billion Chinese want to come here, we should let them all in?

 

[danielpalos]

you have no truth value; who cares what you think if you have no witnesses.

Is it your family that's throwing rocks at US border guards?

nope; there is no immigration clause and we have a First Amendment.

We can keep ANYONE out of our country that we feel like. Nobody has a "right" to come here.

there is no need to keep people out with a naturalization clause.

So if a billion Chinese want to come here, we should let them all in?

all won't stay. Capitalism; What is That, Sayeth the Right Wing. Tourism is the first, second, or third largest employer in twenty-nine States.