Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Porter Rockwell]

I don't know how a political forum works, but calling people names back and forth is a waste of bandwidth. But you've wanted me, you got my attention.

I DO know how a one on one debate works, so OPEN CHALLENGE. I'll take you on in a forum of my choosing where we can both speak freely without fear of censorship and free from interruption.

If you want to chicken out, then I'll give you a few minutes of my attention. So, let us get the preliminaries out of the way:

1) I'm fighting at least eight different people on this thread at the same time. IF I mis-attributed any statements to you then I apologize. But, since it appeared to me that I was being ganged up on, there was no realistic opportunity to make a point, just counter-punch

2) I came here to ask questions so as to best be informed on how to approach the subject; I didn't come here to debate my own conclusions. If what you believe cannot withstand questioning and scrutiny, maybe you shouldn't share your views if you are that easily offended

3) Having said that, without a laundry list of pretexts, explain to me WHY you want a border wall? Bear in mind, there are follow up questions.

This isn't a game for me. I'm not out to prove I'm a better debater than someone or anyone else. This shouldn't be a contest of skill but a contest of facts. And I've already said what I wanted to say and will will say more when and if I decide I have more to say.

I try not to call people names even when they call me names. But sometimes you have to call a liar out.

You have not caught me in a lie. You've only said that because you feel protected by majority rule on this board and you don't have to face me to make such cowardly statements. Now, do you want to get past the penis measuring contest and have a discussion or do you want to force us to endure your snowflake feelings?

Walls stop people from crossing the point the wall crossed. Logic and common sense is all I need to know that.

As has been said, walls can be breached in this day and time.

You miss the whole point. Walls work to keep people out ONLY when those on the inside want to help keep them out. The American people don't want to keep them out and that is why the legislators are having this discussion as a heated debate.

They are better than no wall.
The American people want to keep them out.
The establishment doesn't. Republicans want cheap labor, Dems want cheap votes. That is why we elected Trump to take out the establishment.

Just a few minutes ago, following the news conference, pollsters had it with almost 60 percent of the American people OPPOSING the wall.

Then you have the undecideds. Your major problem, however is that the lawful / de jure / constitutional government in America is a Republic (See Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution)

So I repeat, from where do YOU get your unalienable Rights from?

 

[Slyhunter]

This isn't a game for me. I'm not out to prove I'm a better debater than someone or anyone else. This shouldn't be a contest of skill but a contest of facts. And I've already said what I wanted to say and will will say more when and if I decide I have more to say.

I try not to call people names even when they call me names. But sometimes you have to call a liar out.

You have not caught me in a lie. You've only said that because you feel protected by majority rule on this board and you don't have to face me to make such cowardly statements. Now, do you want to get past the penis measuring contest and have a discussion or do you want to force us to endure your snowflake feelings?

Walls stop people from crossing the point the wall crossed. Logic and common sense is all I need to know that.

As has been said, walls can be breached in this day and time.

You miss the whole point. Walls work to keep people out ONLY when those on the inside want to help keep them out. The American people don't want to keep them out and that is why the legislators are having this discussion as a heated debate.

They are better than no wall.
The American people want to keep them out.
The establishment doesn't. Republicans want cheap labor, Dems want cheap votes. That is why we elected Trump to take out the establishment.

Just a few minutes ago, following the news conference, pollsters had it with almost 60 percent of the American people OPPOSING the wall.

Then you have the undecideds. Your major problem, however is that the lawful / de jure / constitutional government in America is a Republic (See Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution)

So I repeat, from where do YOU get your unalienable Rights from?

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

 

[OKTexas]

I've seen other reports that contradict and I actually saw them on TV stating they want a WALL!!!!

In four Customs and Border Protection sectors where physical barriers have been expanded — El Paso, Yuma, Tucson, and San Diego — illegal traffic has dropped by at least 90%.

Dems pre-Trump:

-Hillary: Supported border wall
-Obama: More border security, illegals must speak English, go to back of line
-Schumer: Border walls work
-Reid: Offering benefits to illegals = insane
-Feinstein: US can't be Mexico's welfare
-Clinton: Illegal immigration is wrong

I support border security. A wall is a waste of money. But watching the border is important. You can watch the border with or without a wall. And when you eventually stop watching the border without a wall then you don't feel stupid for building an unnecessary wall that was a huge waste of time and money and now has so many holes in it that it looks like swiss cheese.

Watching doesn't prevent 1 person from crossing, drones, sensors and other technology won't prevent 1 person from crossing. Then we have to spend nearly $12,000 for each one we catch to deport them. Walls where erected have proven effective.

.

If you watch, stop them and don’t let them in that works.

An unlatched area of wall won’t stop shit. So you just wasted $5 billion.

We didn’t have a problem until Reagan. He and GW Bush stopped cracking down on employers who hire illegals. If we go back to the way things were, illegals would go home. No employer would dare hire them..

Again, no wall necessary.

We survived all these years with no wall. Sorry trump you’re going to loose this one

What you are refusing to acknowledge is that past illegal aliens were single working aged males that wanted to send money home to support their family. They were mostly from Mexico and could easily be removed.

Now we have whole families and unaccompanied minors, the law requires they be treated differently. They are overwhelming the system established to process and care for them. Right now we have almost a million pending asylum cases and thousands a month added to that backlog.

Another thing you seem not to understand is border patrol agent can NOT physically prevent an illegal alien form entering, all they can do is arrest and detain them AFTER they have entered, then the courts and the law gives them due process rights. The only legal way to prevent entry is a barrier that prevents entry in the first place.

Also I doubt Trump is monitoring this forum so your last sentence was a waste of band width. But feel free to try to refute the facts I've presented.

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You’re not listening to anything I say and you believe the wall is the silver bullet.

Texas should pay for it. States rights.

Never said it was a silver bullet, it's just part of the solution, but your claims that todays illegals are the same as in the past is BS. I notice you didn't even try to actually rebut what I actually said. So carry on with your intellectually dishonest crap and I'll continue to smile at your ignorance.

.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You have not caught me in a lie. You've only said that because you feel protected by majority rule on this board and you don't have to face me to make such cowardly statements. Now, do you want to get past the penis measuring contest and have a discussion or do you want to force us to endure your snowflake feelings?

Walls stop people from crossing the point the wall crossed. Logic and common sense is all I need to know that.

As has been said, walls can be breached in this day and time.

You miss the whole point. Walls work to keep people out ONLY when those on the inside want to help keep them out. The American people don't want to keep them out and that is why the legislators are having this discussion as a heated debate.

They are better than no wall.
The American people want to keep them out.
The establishment doesn't. Republicans want cheap labor, Dems want cheap votes. That is why we elected Trump to take out the establishment.

Just a few minutes ago, following the news conference, pollsters had it with almost 60 percent of the American people OPPOSING the wall.

Then you have the undecideds. Your major problem, however is that the lawful / de jure / constitutional government in America is a Republic (See Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution)

So I repeat, from where do YOU get your unalienable Rights from?

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

 

[dblack]

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

Trump. Duh!

 

[Slyhunter]

Walls stop people from crossing the point the wall crossed. Logic and common sense is all I need to know that.

As has been said, walls can be breached in this day and time.

You miss the whole point. Walls work to keep people out ONLY when those on the inside want to help keep them out. The American people don't want to keep them out and that is why the legislators are having this discussion as a heated debate.

They are better than no wall.
The American people want to keep them out.
The establishment doesn't. Republicans want cheap labor, Dems want cheap votes. That is why we elected Trump to take out the establishment.

Just a few minutes ago, following the news conference, pollsters had it with almost 60 percent of the American people OPPOSING the wall.

Then you have the undecideds. Your major problem, however is that the lawful / de jure / constitutional government in America is a Republic (See Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution)

So I repeat, from where do YOU get your unalienable Rights from?

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

As has been said, walls can be breached in this day and time.

You miss the whole point. Walls work to keep people out ONLY when those on the inside want to help keep them out. The American people don't want to keep them out and that is why the legislators are having this discussion as a heated debate.

They are better than no wall.
The American people want to keep them out.
The establishment doesn't. Republicans want cheap labor, Dems want cheap votes. That is why we elected Trump to take out the establishment.

Just a few minutes ago, following the news conference, pollsters had it with almost 60 percent of the American people OPPOSING the wall.

Then you have the undecideds. Your major problem, however is that the lawful / de jure / constitutional government in America is a Republic (See Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution)

So I repeat, from where do YOU get your unalienable Rights from?

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

So, like Ray, you think that rights are inalienable? Do you, like he, believe that our Rights come through mortal men who can vote for or against what they will or will not give you in terms of Liberty?

So, when an employer hires a foreigner, how do you justify taking away his Rights? As I see it, owning private property is one of the greatest hallmarks of our constitutional Republic. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Slyhunter]

They are better than no wall.
The American people want to keep them out.
The establishment doesn't. Republicans want cheap labor, Dems want cheap votes. That is why we elected Trump to take out the establishment.

Just a few minutes ago, following the news conference, pollsters had it with almost 60 percent of the American people OPPOSING the wall.

Then you have the undecideds. Your major problem, however is that the lawful / de jure / constitutional government in America is a Republic (See Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution)

So I repeat, from where do YOU get your unalienable Rights from?

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

So, like Ray, you think that rights are inalienable? Do you, like he, believe that our Rights come through mortal men who can vote for or against what they will or will not give you in terms of Liberty?

So, when an employer hires a foreigner, how do you justify taking away his Rights? As I see it, owning private property is one of the greatest hallmarks of our constitutional Republic. Do you disagree with that?

I already answered that. Father builds better life for their children, through the generations I benefit from my ancestors sweat, work, blood, bullets and have the life I have now. We Americans earned our lives as they exist here and now. These foreigners did not.

 

[OKTexas]

They come here uninvited. Then DEMAND entry. They are not citizens of this country and have no right to demand anything.

You are wrong. Foreigners come here because they ARE invited. A LOT of your American brethren are hiring them, renting to them, buying from them,. selling to them. We're not at war with them. As a matter of FACT, the welcome mat (the Statue of Liberty) has this on the base of the statue:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

We are not in a war with them and if they get anything from the government, it is by way of politicians YOU elected.

Hiring them is against the law.

But the law is unconstitutional and is without any relevance - Said so in post # 2086. It's why they have a Hell of a time enforcing it.

Post # 2086 isn't yours, care to try again?

.

At 80 wpm, it is possible to be imperfect. It is actually post # 2806

Hey thanks for the laugh, all the supremes did in that case was uphold the commerce clause and the immigration powers the Constitution vested in congress after 1808. But good try.

.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Just a few minutes ago, following the news conference, pollsters had it with almost 60 percent of the American people OPPOSING the wall.

Then you have the undecideds. Your major problem, however is that the lawful / de jure / constitutional government in America is a Republic (See Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution)

So I repeat, from where do YOU get your unalienable Rights from?

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

So, like Ray, you think that rights are inalienable? Do you, like he, believe that our Rights come through mortal men who can vote for or against what they will or will not give you in terms of Liberty?

So, when an employer hires a foreigner, how do you justify taking away his Rights? As I see it, owning private property is one of the greatest hallmarks of our constitutional Republic. Do you disagree with that?

I already answered that. Father builds better life for their children, through the generations I benefit from my ancestors sweat, work, blood, bullets and have the life I have now. We Americans earned our lives as they exist here and now. These foreigners did not.

You have accused me of lying. I'm now asking you honest questions and am ready to ignore all others IF you have a question for me. But, right now you are deflecting.

The subject of the OP is: Why is building the wall wrong? How can I formulate an answer to that if the criteria are subjective as opposed to objective? I'm not trying to insult you, but your thinking regarding our foundational principles prevents you and I from having an objective discussion about the topic. To repeating a point, the Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

In this discussion, in my mind, that is the most important issue to be addressed. Our forefathers believed that your Rights are unalienable. That means they are above the reach of the law. Liberty is one of them. So, I have concluded, unless you clarify it for me, that the majority can revoke a person's Liberty on the basis of a popularity vote. Is that your view?

 

[OKTexas]

I cited sources, all you have is your spew.,prove them wrong. And I'm citing monetary and human costs to justify the wall. And my rights are irrelevant to this discussion unless I'm killed or injured by an illegal alien tomorrow, they have deprived 10s of thousands of American their rights.

.

Maybe you should have reread that post before making it. Let me put this to you another way:

You can cite all the monetary costs you want. THAT, sir, is THE DISCONNECT.Why are foreigners in the United States working? Foreigners come here because it's profitable. Your lobbying efforts DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT BOTH SIDES OF THE ACCOUNTING LEDGER.

That is how you're being proven wrong. You have to look at the contributions foreigners make in order to understand the whole picture. When this is done, from a financial perspective, the foreigners ARE profitable. That is why Bill O'Reilly hired them; it's why Donald Trump uses them.

If you were not such a wall cultist, you would be able to understand that I'm taking this abuse and staying in this discussion because I AM FIGHTING WITH MY VERY LIFE FOR YOUR RIGHTS. I am fighting for YOUR Rights. You are trying to win a war predicated on propaganda, denying the REAL reason foreigners come here, with the false expectation you can keep them out, and without a real understanding of what and why the current immigration laws exist.

Well child if you have been paying attention you'd know I'm all for jailing people that employ illegal aliens, the supposed charities that are helping fund them and provide lawyers to go south of the border to coach them on what to say and help them get settled once they're here. Anyone who harbors or enables illegal aliens should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Also you have yet to explain how the current walls that cover about 1/3rd of the southern border has effected my or anyone else's rights. Or why adding an additional 10% would suddenly cause them to do so.

If you have something to say, lay it out in plain language, with credible links, I'm not concerned with your feelings.

.

How many times is it required of me to lay out the links? Damn, son, I've done it at least half a dozen times, complete with irrefutable links. Tell you what - if you will keep a list of the links and present them from here on out, I will redo my work for at least the SEVENTH time and then you promise to NEVER ask me that question and when someone from your side does challenge me, YOU post the post numbers. Deal?

You're dangerous. You would jail people for controlling their own property? And you dare call others commiecrats??? WTH?

I would jail people for engaging in a criminal enterprise, laws prohibit people from hiring, transporting or harboring illegals in any manner. Lawyers who conspire with illegals to defraud the US should also be jailed. Roughly 9% of asylum claims are found to have merit, but they get through the initial screening because they are coached on what to say.

Also the only link you've provided to me was from a left wing academic who ignored the direct and indirect costs of illegal aliens. Your taxes are higher, your auto insurance is higher, your health care is higher, your wages are lower and the list could go on and on and all can be, in part attributed to illegals aliens. It offsets, by far, anything they may contribute. I've already covered the human costs to our citizens, if Americans truly knew the over all costs of illegal aliens they would revolt and demand a stop to it.

.

The link I provided was used by someone ON YOUR SIDE OF THE DISCUSSION in another of these kinds of threads. Culled it from another board. Nice try, but no cigar.

Yet you felt the need to post it here, did you actually read it or just scan the summary? Also if someone on my side used it, they're an idiot. Feel free to tell them I said so.

Now would you care to actually address what I said instead of deflecting to the link?

.

.

 

[Slyhunter]

I don't trust Liberal pollsters.
Also most conservatives don't answer the phone to those they don't know so they don't get polled so their opinion is never included in the polls. But they are included on voting day.

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

So, like Ray, you think that rights are inalienable? Do you, like he, believe that our Rights come through mortal men who can vote for or against what they will or will not give you in terms of Liberty?

So, when an employer hires a foreigner, how do you justify taking away his Rights? As I see it, owning private property is one of the greatest hallmarks of our constitutional Republic. Do you disagree with that?

I already answered that. Father builds better life for their children, through the generations I benefit from my ancestors sweat, work, blood, bullets and have the life I have now. We Americans earned our lives as they exist here and now. These foreigners did not.

You have accused me of lying. I'm now asking you honest questions and am ready to ignore all others IF you have a question for me. But, right now you are deflecting.

The subject of the OP is: Why is building the wall wrong? How can I formulate an answer to that if the criteria are subjective as opposed to objective? I'm not trying to insult you, but your thinking regarding our foundational principles prevents you and I from having an objective discussion about the topic. To repeating a point, the Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

In this discussion, in my mind, that is the most important issue to be addressed. Our forefathers believed that your Rights are unalienable. That means they are above the reach of the law. Liberty is one of them. So, I have concluded, unless you clarify it for me, that the majority can revoke a person's Liberty on the basis of a popularity vote. Is that your view?

The wall is not wrong because saying so means trying to keep people out of our country is wrong and that's not wrong because foreigners do not have a right to come here unless we let them.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You are wrong. Foreigners come here because they ARE invited. A LOT of your American brethren are hiring them, renting to them, buying from them,. selling to them. We're not at war with them. As a matter of FACT, the welcome mat (the Statue of Liberty) has this on the base of the statue:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

We are not in a war with them and if they get anything from the government, it is by way of politicians YOU elected.

Hiring them is against the law.

But the law is unconstitutional and is without any relevance - Said so in post # 2086. It's why they have a Hell of a time enforcing it.

Post # 2086 isn't yours, care to try again?

.

At 80 wpm, it is possible to be imperfect. It is actually post # 2806

Hey thanks for the laugh, all the supremes did in that case was uphold the commerce clause and the immigration powers the Constitution vested in congress after 1808. But goo try.

.

You cannot read. In 1808 state immigration officials were to collect a $10 tax per person they had in their states. That is why, in 1875, California had state immigration officials. That is over half a century AFTER your misrepresentation of the facts.

BTW, I'm in one discussion tonight. Any way you can wait til tomorrow to give me a sporting chance to respond to you?

 

[OKTexas]

Pay more. Supply/Demand economics. What is the job?

I'm a minister with a jobs program. We have temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs in many fields from laborers to farm workers and from warehouse workers to construction / handymen positions.

Whites will not work the jobs.

Your anecdotal stories don't hold true across the country, I have 5 guys numbers, all white, all citizens, I can call for handyman work, brush clearing and other things. I have 5 acres and the forest is constantly trying to reclaim cleared areas.

.

Anecdotal? They do tv segments on it here. It's statewide and we ran # 4 in the nation for the number of undocumented foreigners.

Yeah, it's anecdotal, what is happening in your State doesn't necessarily apply to others. If they're running TV segments I'm sure the print media is doing it also, yet you haven't provided one link to substantiate your claims.

.

Liar liar pants on fire. Throughout this thread I've provided irrefutable links - just not going to keep looking them up and repeating them over and over. It's childish and a waste of time. READ THE DAMN THREAD.

I don't recall a link on this particular topic, but I be glad to take a look if you can point to one.

.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You would believe the pollsters if the numbers were in your favor. The point is, a significant number of Americans are against the wall.

And so, I ask, from where do YOU get YOUR unalienable Rights from?

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

So, like Ray, you think that rights are inalienable? Do you, like he, believe that our Rights come through mortal men who can vote for or against what they will or will not give you in terms of Liberty?

So, when an employer hires a foreigner, how do you justify taking away his Rights? As I see it, owning private property is one of the greatest hallmarks of our constitutional Republic. Do you disagree with that?

I already answered that. Father builds better life for their children, through the generations I benefit from my ancestors sweat, work, blood, bullets and have the life I have now. We Americans earned our lives as they exist here and now. These foreigners did not.

You have accused me of lying. I'm now asking you honest questions and am ready to ignore all others IF you have a question for me. But, right now you are deflecting.

The subject of the OP is: Why is building the wall wrong? How can I formulate an answer to that if the criteria are subjective as opposed to objective? I'm not trying to insult you, but your thinking regarding our foundational principles prevents you and I from having an objective discussion about the topic. To repeating a point, the Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

In this discussion, in my mind, that is the most important issue to be addressed. Our forefathers believed that your Rights are unalienable. That means they are above the reach of the law. Liberty is one of them. So, I have concluded, unless you clarify it for me, that the majority can revoke a person's Liberty on the basis of a popularity vote. Is that your view?

The wall is not wrong because saying so means trying to keep people out of our country is wrong and that's not wrong because foreigners do not have a right to come here unless we let them.

It would be wrong if:

A) All Americans have the equal protection of the laws (though I'm opposed to the 14th Amendment) and you violate them

B) That you interfere with the free market, the Rights of others to openly do business with us and use a wall as a means of control - which is the antithesis of Liberty.

 

[Slyhunter]

Hiring them is against the law.

But the law is unconstitutional and is without any relevance - Said so in post # 2086. It's why they have a Hell of a time enforcing it.

Post # 2086 isn't yours, care to try again?

.

At 80 wpm, it is possible to be imperfect. It is actually post # 2806

Hey thanks for the laugh, all the supremes did in that case was uphold the commerce clause and the immigration powers the Constitution vested in congress after 1808. But goo try.

.

You cannot read. In 1808 state immigration officials were to collect a $10 tax per person they had in their states. That is why, in 1875, California had state immigration officials. That is over half a century AFTER your misrepresentation of the facts.

BTW, I'm in one discussion tonight. Any way you can wait til tomorrow to give me a sporting chance to respond to you?

Dude that isn't how this forum works. Anyone who wants to can reply to anything I say and I can't demand they wait their turn.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Maybe you should have reread that post before making it. Let me put this to you another way:

You can cite all the monetary costs you want. THAT, sir, is THE DISCONNECT.Why are foreigners in the United States working? Foreigners come here because it's profitable. Your lobbying efforts DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT BOTH SIDES OF THE ACCOUNTING LEDGER.

That is how you're being proven wrong. You have to look at the contributions foreigners make in order to understand the whole picture. When this is done, from a financial perspective, the foreigners ARE profitable. That is why Bill O'Reilly hired them; it's why Donald Trump uses them.

If you were not such a wall cultist, you would be able to understand that I'm taking this abuse and staying in this discussion because I AM FIGHTING WITH MY VERY LIFE FOR YOUR RIGHTS. I am fighting for YOUR Rights. You are trying to win a war predicated on propaganda, denying the REAL reason foreigners come here, with the false expectation you can keep them out, and without a real understanding of what and why the current immigration laws exist.

Well child if you have been paying attention you'd know I'm all for jailing people that employ illegal aliens, the supposed charities that are helping fund them and provide lawyers to go south of the border to coach them on what to say and help them get settled once they're here. Anyone who harbors or enables illegal aliens should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Also you have yet to explain how the current walls that cover about 1/3rd of the southern border has effected my or anyone else's rights. Or why adding an additional 10% would suddenly cause them to do so.

If you have something to say, lay it out in plain language, with credible links, I'm not concerned with your feelings.

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How many times is it required of me to lay out the links? Damn, son, I've done it at least half a dozen times, complete with irrefutable links. Tell you what - if you will keep a list of the links and present them from here on out, I will redo my work for at least the SEVENTH time and then you promise to NEVER ask me that question and when someone from your side does challenge me, YOU post the post numbers. Deal?

You're dangerous. You would jail people for controlling their own property? And you dare call others commiecrats??? WTH?

I would jail people for engaging in a criminal enterprise, laws prohibit people from hiring, transporting or harboring illegals in any manner. Lawyers who conspire with illegals to defraud the US should also be jailed. Roughly 9% of asylum claims are found to have merit, but they get through the initial screening because they are coached on what to say.

Also the only link you've provided to me was from a left wing academic who ignored the direct and indirect costs of illegal aliens. Your taxes are higher, your auto insurance is higher, your health care is higher, your wages are lower and the list could go on and on and all can be, in part attributed to illegals aliens. It offsets, by far, anything they may contribute. I've already covered the human costs to our citizens, if Americans truly knew the over all costs of illegal aliens they would revolt and demand a stop to it.

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The link I provided was used by someone ON YOUR SIDE OF THE DISCUSSION in another of these kinds of threads. Culled it from another board. Nice try, but no cigar.

Yet you felt the need to post it here, did you actually read it or just scan the summary? Also if someone on my side used it, they're an idiot. Feel free to tell them I said so.

Now would you care to actually address what I said instead of deflecting to the link?

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ANY chance I can discuss this stuff with slyhunter and come back to you later or do you feel that threatened that he can't fend for himself? Can I please defend myself one at a time?

 

[Slyhunter]

I'm Agnostic.
I believe Intelligent life is more important than other life. I believe individuals should be free to do any damn thing they want to do as long as it doesn't stop another individual from having his rights.
I believe my ancestors built this country for me to appreciate it and I don't have to give away the stuff I take for granted and end up losing it all to a bunch of people from poverty stricken countries unwilling to fix their own damn countries.
I believe there are 158 million poverty folks on this planet and they can't all come here. They are lucky we allow a million a year to come here.

So, like Ray, you think that rights are inalienable? Do you, like he, believe that our Rights come through mortal men who can vote for or against what they will or will not give you in terms of Liberty?

So, when an employer hires a foreigner, how do you justify taking away his Rights? As I see it, owning private property is one of the greatest hallmarks of our constitutional Republic. Do you disagree with that?

I already answered that. Father builds better life for their children, through the generations I benefit from my ancestors sweat, work, blood, bullets and have the life I have now. We Americans earned our lives as they exist here and now. These foreigners did not.

You have accused me of lying. I'm now asking you honest questions and am ready to ignore all others IF you have a question for me. But, right now you are deflecting.

The subject of the OP is: Why is building the wall wrong? How can I formulate an answer to that if the criteria are subjective as opposed to objective? I'm not trying to insult you, but your thinking regarding our foundational principles prevents you and I from having an objective discussion about the topic. To repeating a point, the Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

In this discussion, in my mind, that is the most important issue to be addressed. Our forefathers believed that your Rights are unalienable. That means they are above the reach of the law. Liberty is one of them. So, I have concluded, unless you clarify it for me, that the majority can revoke a person's Liberty on the basis of a popularity vote. Is that your view?

The wall is not wrong because saying so means trying to keep people out of our country is wrong and that's not wrong because foreigners do not have a right to come here unless we let them.

It would be wrong if:

A) All Americans have the equal protection of the laws (though I'm opposed to the 14th Amendment) and you violate them

B) That you interfere with the free market, the Rights of others to openly do business with us and use a wall as a means of control - which is the antithesis of Liberty.

Were allowed to collect tariffs and regulate the market through port of entry. Doesn't mean you can practice trade just anywhere along the border you want to.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

But the law is unconstitutional and is without any relevance - Said so in post # 2086. It's why they have a Hell of a time enforcing it.

Post # 2086 isn't yours, care to try again?

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At 80 wpm, it is possible to be imperfect. It is actually post # 2806

Hey thanks for the laugh, all the supremes did in that case was uphold the commerce clause and the immigration powers the Constitution vested in congress after 1808. But goo try.

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You cannot read. In 1808 state immigration officials were to collect a $10 tax per person they had in their states. That is why, in 1875, California had state immigration officials. That is over half a century AFTER your misrepresentation of the facts.

BTW, I'm in one discussion tonight. Any way you can wait til tomorrow to give me a sporting chance to respond to you?

Dude that isn't how this forum works. Anyone who wants to can reply to anything I say and I can't demand they wait their turn.

Now you are bringing in reinforcements because yo cannot defend a position you realize is wrong. Okay, I accept your concession of defeat.

 

[Slyhunter]

Post # 2086 isn't yours, care to try again?

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At 80 wpm, it is possible to be imperfect. It is actually post # 2806

Hey thanks for the laugh, all the supremes did in that case was uphold the commerce clause and the immigration powers the Constitution vested in congress after 1808. But goo try.

.

You cannot read. In 1808 state immigration officials were to collect a $10 tax per person they had in their states. That is why, in 1875, California had state immigration officials. That is over half a century AFTER your misrepresentation of the facts.

BTW, I'm in one discussion tonight. Any way you can wait til tomorrow to give me a sporting chance to respond to you?

Dude that isn't how this forum works. Anyone who wants to can reply to anything I say and I can't demand they wait their turn.

Now you are bringing in reinforcements because yo cannot defend a position you realize is wrong. Okay, I accept your concession of defeat.

You are so full of shit. You sound like a Liberal.