Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Ray From Cleveland]

You you won't even HAVE a country without strong defensible borders which includes a wall.

we have a refugee problem not a common defense problem.

People who illegally crash our border are NOT refugees they are ILLEGAL ALIENS!! A refugee is NOT a refugee until identified as so by our border authorities. How can you be so ignorant?

You have it backwards, they are refugees unless and until a court of competent jurisdiction declares otherwise. People seeking asylum are ALLOWED to legally crash the borders in an effort to ask for asylum. What is wrong about what is happening at the border is the Trump Administration's bald faced attempt to prevent refugees from crossing into the USA to make that asylum claim. And then incarcerating those who claim asylum until their cases are heard.

What Trump is doing, is limiting how many people the system will process in a day, allowing a huge waiting list to accumulate in order to discourage those seeking to get in. This is both illegal and inhumane, and therein lies the problem. People don't have the resources to wait for months to claim asylum and the Trump Administration is gambling they will quit and leave, or even better, that conditions in the camps will get so bad that violence breaks out. Violence would be the fulfillment of all of your fears.

Trump and his acolytes has consistently attempted to de-humanize immigrants and asylum seekers. Just reading your post you've bought into this nazi bullshit wholeheartedly. If they're not really human, it doesn't matter what we do to them does it. Tear gas their children, let them go into convulsions without medical treatment and die, separate the parents from their children with no care or consideration for returning them to their families. Teaching an entire generation of Central Americans to hate the USA for turning their backs on them.

Immigrants are not "aliens", they are human beings, just like you and I. When you refer to refugees and asylum seekers as an "invasion", an "infestation", "alien", or "animals", it is YOU who are revealed to be subhuman, and unworthy of any consideration whatsoever.

As a purportedly Christian nation, I would remind you of the words of Jesus "That which you have done to the least among you, you have done to me!". If the barefoot and poor Jesus Christ had walked out of the desert and asked for asylum, you would turn Him away too.

I don't think Jesus would be lying about his asylum claim as most of the asylum seekers do. I don't think Jesus would throw rocks at our border agents or break down a temporary wall to enter illegally.

Yes, the worse you treat these people, the less will come. There were supposed to be tens of thousands more joining this current caravan. Where are they? Where did they go?

It's working. Finally, a President who is doing things that actually work. If you don't want to sit around for years picking your nose, if you don't want to be separated from your supposed children, if you don't want to be detained, then STF in your own country. Don't come here. Problem solved.

Most asylum seekers are not lying. But of course you think they are because . . .?

More people are coming regardless of how you treat them because they HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS. Their countries have been taken over by American narco-terrorists gangs. As long as you do nothing about the narco terrorists, refugees will continue to come.

There weren't tens of thousands joining the caravan. That would be another lie from FOX and Trump, ginning up support from fools like you.

Nope, that was all news agencies reporting those figures; some claiming into the millions. Not just Fox news.

It was also reported as the first caravan was approaching that other caravans were forming. Never happened after they heard the reports of the strong stance Trump was taking.

How do I know asylum seekers are lying? Because over 80% of asylum applications are rejected. All they really do is plug up the system.

Yes, they do have other options. One of course was to accept the asylum offerings by Mexico which most did not. Secondly is the option for those young men approaching our borders to fight in their own country to gain freedom.

And I never read your response on my suggestion that we just send these poor souls to Canada for you to deal with them instead of us. What's wrong, don't you Canadians want to be humanitarians?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Because government doesn't make my decisions for me. I make my own decisions, and I make those decisions based on the information I have. One landlord might want to rent to an ex-con. I don't. I've had experience doing that and I base my future decisions on past experiences.

It's obvious that the government don't make your decisions for you. Rush Limbaugh does that. But, you clearly WISH that the government would be your personal Santa Claus.

Asking that government not hide information from me that could cause me harm either physically or financially is not Santa Clause. It's asking government to do it's job by protecting us from enemies foreign and domestic.

In 2005, a news article reported this:

"WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm..."

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone

You are FACTUALLY wrong again.

Another article quoted the above, but the United States Supreme Court is still ruling all the time on this question. A more recent article states this:

"However, did you know that the government, and specifically law enforcement, does not have any duty to protect the general public? Based on the headline and this information, you might assume this is a new, landmark decision. However, it has long been the court’s stance that, essentially, the American people are responsible for taking case of their own personal safety."

https://tribunist.com/news/supreme-court-ruling-police-have-no-duty-to-protect-the-general-public/

The government has NO duty to you as an individual when your personal safety is the issue.

And the government has no right to restrict information from me that may lead to physical harm or property damage. Public record should remain just that--public.

In spite of the devil whispering in your ear, I'm in favor of protecting law abiding citizens. You are for protection of the criminal element.

I am for protecting Americans. You're lying and have zero credibility. That allegation is not only baseless, but ridiculous. YOU are the criminal element. I won't defend you any longer.

I never asked you to defend me in the first place. I don't need your defense.

No, you are not protecting Americans by insisting government restrict employers, landlords and the public in general about ex-cons interaction with them. You want to hide dangerous people from the public until they act in criminality again which could lead to harm, property damage, and even death. You're fine with that, so don't say you are for protecting Americans.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Oh, that reverse psychology guilt trip thing again? You all tried that multiple times with gun discussions. When are you on the left going to realize that doesn't work? It's painfully transparent.

I've noticed that the pro-wall people are ALWAYS blaming the left for being against the nutty wall idea. The facts are that I am a Republican as are the majority of the people in the U.S. Senate. When push comes to shove, most Republicans are against the nutty wall idea.

Ray, you cannot come to grips with the fact that a wall is a socialist solution looking for a problem to solve. When people show you instances when a wall does not work, you are complaining about how far back into history the other poster went to prove the point. Even going back to BIBLICAL times, walls have not been long term solutions for much of anything.

Those, such as yourself, like wailing about the damn wall, but cannot tell us a single problem you're really addressing. If those with a few IQ points show you what's wrong with the pretext you rely on, you want to move the goal posts.

I really wish you would quit blaming opposition to the wall on the Republicans. The only reason most of them are supporting idea is in the best interests of party unity so that other legislation does not get bogged down AND the fix is in. Once the wall is fully funded and Donnie gets his win, you can kiss that gun in your avatar good-bye.

For everything you gain there is something lost. Trump isn't God. He is playing the Art of the Deal. You're simply too ignorant to ask what the real cost - not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of legislation (legislation that will affect YOUR Liberties) does this nutty and INEFFECTIVE wall idea cost.

Sorry, turd, but you'll never convince me that you're a Republican. You walk like a Democrat, waddle like a Democrat and talk like a Democrat.

When you stoop to name calling, it negates ANY argument you bring to the table. Furthermore, NO liberal has ever offered up ANY argument I've made on this subject. NO liberal has quote me; I've not quoted ANY liberal in support of my position. But, I can damn well cite a liberal arguing YOUR point of view:

Plenty of liberals have used the exact same arguments. There are no new arguments in this debate. Either your for the wall or you're against it. In the latter case, you lie to support your position. That's the bottom line.

The only thing you have not lied about thus far is that you're either for the wall or against it.

I'm against it and know there are better ways to secure the border. Admit it, you don't care about anything but the wall. You'd sell your soul for a wall. You don't even know what's being traded off in order to get it built.

No liberal has ever quoted me; I've never quoted a liberal and they do NOT make the same arguments I do.

You and the liberals are both against the wall because a wall would work. What more do we need to know?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Oh, that reverse psychology guilt trip thing again? You all tried that multiple times with gun discussions. When are you on the left going to realize that doesn't work? It's painfully transparent.

I've noticed that the pro-wall people are ALWAYS blaming the left for being against the nutty wall idea. The facts are that I am a Republican as are the majority of the people in the U.S. Senate. When push comes to shove, most Republicans are against the nutty wall idea.

Ray, you cannot come to grips with the fact that a wall is a socialist solution looking for a problem to solve. When people show you instances when a wall does not work, you are complaining about how far back into history the other poster went to prove the point. Even going back to BIBLICAL times, walls have not been long term solutions for much of anything.

Those, such as yourself, like wailing about the damn wall, but cannot tell us a single problem you're really addressing. If those with a few IQ points show you what's wrong with the pretext you rely on, you want to move the goal posts.

I really wish you would quit blaming opposition to the wall on the Republicans. The only reason most of them are supporting idea is in the best interests of party unity so that other legislation does not get bogged down AND the fix is in. Once the wall is fully funded and Donnie gets his win, you can kiss that gun in your avatar good-bye.

For everything you gain there is something lost. Trump isn't God. He is playing the Art of the Deal. You're simply too ignorant to ask what the real cost - not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of legislation (legislation that will affect YOUR Liberties) does this nutty and INEFFECTIVE wall idea cost.

Sorry, turd, but you'll never convince me that you're a Republican. You walk like a Democrat, waddle like a Democrat and talk like a Democrat.

When you stoop to name calling, it negates ANY argument you bring to the table. Furthermore, NO liberal has ever offered up ANY argument I've made on this subject. NO liberal has quote me; I've not quoted ANY liberal in support of my position. But, I can damn well cite a liberal arguing YOUR point of view:

Right. Isn't that the same guy who ran on welfare reform, and when it was finally introduced by THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS, he vetoed the bill twice? Isn't it the same guy who was forced to sign it because the Republicans introduced it a third time right before his reelection bid?

All of that is irrelevant to immigration. I'm not a Democrat. You're grasping at straws with your off topic deflection.

There is nothing off topic about it. Democrats are born liars. As Limbaugh said repeatedly, when Democrats want to win elections, they talk like Republicans. The Democrats never wanted a wall. If they did, it would have been built in the first two years of Obama, or the first year of Clinton. Much like Welfare Reform, they simply state they are for it when they are really not.

But do tell (since you believe their BS) what Democrat President ever took action on building a wall? More importantly, what Republican ever fought a Democrat President from building one?

Starting to get the picture yet? If not, sleep on it, and maybe it will come to you.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, a person who is a criminal is potentially dangerous. The government is we the people. When the government sends somebody to jail, we the people sent them to jail. We have a right to know who our government sent to prison for our own protection.

So if a guy loses his job and doesn't pay child support is dangerous? A guy who has a beef with the tax authorities is dangerous? Only in Ray's world.

That's up to me and employers to decide, not you and not the government. I need to know who and what I'm dealing with to make a safe and sound decision.

Under our Constitution as originally written and intended you are finally RIGHT. That is precisely why it's not the government's business who a company does or does not offer a job to. It's not your freaking job; it belongs to the employer that created it.

And yet you stand by an employees past being hidden from an employer so the employer doesn't know what kind of jeopardy he or she is putting their company in. Wonderful.

That is a straight out LIE and you know it. I said no such thing. I also instructed you on how to find out about people via private sources.

I don't need your instruction about doing investigative searches on tenants. Your stance was that criminal records should be kept away from the public; particularly employers and landlords. If you challenge me on this, I'm on vacation and have the time, and I'll be happy to quote you on this and even provide a post number(s).

 

[Leo123]

I've noticed that the pro-wall people are ALWAYS blaming the left for being against the nutty wall idea. The facts are that I am a Republican as are the majority of the people in the U.S. Senate. When push comes to shove, most Republicans are against the nutty wall idea.

Ray, you cannot come to grips with the fact that a wall is a socialist solution looking for a problem to solve. When people show you instances when a wall does not work, you are complaining about how far back into history the other poster went to prove the point. Even going back to BIBLICAL times, walls have not been long term solutions for much of anything.

Those, such as yourself, like wailing about the damn wall, but cannot tell us a single problem you're really addressing. If those with a few IQ points show you what's wrong with the pretext you rely on, you want to move the goal posts.

I really wish you would quit blaming opposition to the wall on the Republicans. The only reason most of them are supporting idea is in the best interests of party unity so that other legislation does not get bogged down AND the fix is in. Once the wall is fully funded and Donnie gets his win, you can kiss that gun in your avatar good-bye.

For everything you gain there is something lost. Trump isn't God. He is playing the Art of the Deal. You're simply too ignorant to ask what the real cost - not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of legislation (legislation that will affect YOUR Liberties) does this nutty and INEFFECTIVE wall idea cost.

Sorry, turd, but you'll never convince me that you're a Republican. You walk like a Democrat, waddle like a Democrat and talk like a Democrat.

When you stoop to name calling, it negates ANY argument you bring to the table. Furthermore, NO liberal has ever offered up ANY argument I've made on this subject. NO liberal has quote me; I've not quoted ANY liberal in support of my position. But, I can damn well cite a liberal arguing YOUR point of view:

Right. Isn't that the same guy who ran on welfare reform, and when it was finally introduced by THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS, he vetoed the bill twice? Isn't it the same guy who was forced to sign it because the Republicans introduced it a third time right before his reelection bid?

All of that is irrelevant to immigration. I'm not a Democrat. You're grasping at straws with your off topic deflection.

There is nothing off topic about it. Democrats are born liars. As Limbaugh said repeatedly, when Democrats want to win elections, they talk like Republicans. The Democrats never wanted a wall. If they did, it would have been built in the first two years of Obama, or the first year of Clinton. Much like Welfare Reform, they simply state they are for it when they are really not.

But do tell (since you believe their BS) what Democrat President ever took action on building a wall? More importantly, what Republican ever fought a Democrat President from building one?

Starting to get the picture yet? If not, sleep on it, and maybe it will come to you.

Democrats misrepresent themselves as the pulse of 'The People' however, more often than not, they represent leftist, political opinion disguised as "critical thinking' which is pushed by the liberal academic establishment and is not anchored in reality of any kind.

 

[william104]

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

There are plenty of walls to put tRump and his felonious treasonous GOPer cronies behind.

 

[Issa]

Building a wall is applying a solution that the Chinese used in the 4th Century AD, and it didn't work then. The Great Wall proved no deterrent at all to attacking armies, despite 15 centuries of construction, fortification and expansion and was abandoned altogether by the last army which overall it.

The Eminent Domain cases from the last attempt to fence the entire southern border have still not cleared the dockets in Texas, and local residents are gearing up for another fight.

Cartels are now using drones to smuggle drugs across the border, so a wall is absolutely not deterrent to drugs.

And last but not least, Trump promised Mexico would pay for it, and now he's giving us some bullshit line that the new NAFTA 2.0 is paying for it. The American people will be paying for it. That's on top of the $4000 raises he promised everyone from the corporate tax cut that never materialized.

$4,000 raises? That's a new one on me. I never heard of that before and I watched the elections pretty closely.

So now your stance is to compare a 4th century wall to today? Then why is it where walls and fences are erected, they made noticeable improvement if not total improvement?

And you're claiming all drugs are coming in on drones? Very well, even though I don't believe a word of that (I know they use drones from time to time) what happens when we find a solution to that problem? Start the wall talk again? Wouldn't it be better to have the wall in place already when that happens?

Did you ever take notice that we pro-wall people don't give a rats ass who is paying for the wall, yet you on the left keep bringing that up like it's a relevant point to stop it?

Drugs go through checkpoints, also most illegals came by plane by the way. That's why we keep telling you a wall is useless.

Hmmm. Makes you wonder how those border agencies make thousands of busts every year by the border.

It makes wonder also how some of those border agents make more than their salaries, and dozens got arrested.

Really? When?

Dude I keep telling you the primary problem with you guys, anti immigrants, pro trump I'd being ignorant of facts and you live ina bunnle....we lose our shit trying to explain to you but your fear and ignorance is blinding uou.
Here read the article, and don't tell me is fake news.

U.S. Border Agency Says Hundreds of Employees Have Been Arrested Over 2 Years

 

[Globalist]

Why is building a wall wrong?
1.) Why bother going to such drastic lengths to tackle a "problem" that's been on the decline? (See: Pew Research)
2.) Do the wall advocates realize there will never actually be a "full" wall? Recall the recent border fence and Landowner lawsuits. The Trump administration could use eminent domain to acquire the land but will have to negotiate compensation and WILL face lawsuits. More than 90 such lawsuits in southern Texas alone are still open from the effort to build a fence there.
3.) The wall isn't going to fix the drug problem. According to the DEA, most drugs come through legal ports of entry.
etc,etc,etc...

 

[Olde Europe]

Why is building a wall wrong?
1.) Why bother going to such drastic lengths to tackle a "problem" that's been on the decline? (See: Pew Research)
2.) Do the wall advocates realize there will never actually be a "full" wall? Recall the recent border fence and Landowner lawsuits. The Trump administration could use eminent domain to acquire the land but will have to negotiate compensation and WILL face lawsuits. More than 90 such lawsuits in southern Texas alone are still open from the effort to build a fence there.
3.) The wall isn't going to fix the drug problem. According to the DEA, most drugs come through legal ports of entry.
etc,etc,etc...

Trump has nothing to offer to ordinary Americans. Protection against predatory vultures, workers' bargaining powers, a healthy environment, a stable future for their kids, affordable (higher) education (etc.), there is nothing on the table. So, he lets himself be seen fighting like a lion against the imaginary Swamp, against the "establishment", to "protect" Americans against the "darkies" - their crime, disease, their drugs, and whatnot. A political ploy, and a boondoggle, campaign antics that have one major benefit: to be paid for by the taxpayers themselves.

What could be more alluring to the Trumpster Fire than that?

 

[Dragonlady]

It’s a waste of money .

View attachment 236224
It's a waste of skin.

Only a colossal dolt would argue against protection of one's own border. The Pentagon has misplaced more money MANY TIMES OVER over the years than what the wall would cost to build.

AND THAT IS WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING THE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS (AND BILLIONS) WE WOULD SAVE IN NOT-WASTED RESOURCES ONCE IT IS FINISHED.

PROVE ME WRONG. Once the wall is built, if it turns out to be a colossal mistake like you predict that backfires in our faces, we can always TEAR IT BACK DOWN, melt the steel, and use the metal to make free housing for illegal Latinos.

You Russians REALLY want that wall.

First off, not wanting to waste money on a 4th Century solution to a 21st Century problem doesn’t mean we don’t want secure borders. Trump says that but it isn’t true, like most things Trump says.

It is asinine to say that the wall should be built and if it doesn’t work, tear it down. No real American would say that but then you’re not a real American. It’s not your tax dollars being flushed.

I have noticed all of the Russian trolls are absolutely bat shit crazy for the wall. The Berlin Wall didn’t work either. Nor do gated communities or walled off properties. These places get robbed just like every other property.

 

[Paulie]

A&B mostly. Most illegal immigration does not come over the border by foot. And if we’re 21T in debt, a quarter T on building a wall is not a good investment.

So as an immigration barrier, it’s a bad idea; also in the stark light of the reality that illegal immigration has been largely beneficial to the economy despite the horror stories and cherry picked anecdotes.

That being said, it seems to me that a fantastic idea would be to create an alternative to the Panama canal from San Diego to Brownsville TX or so that allows goods to bypass the trip through Central America and can possibly bring irrigation to the desert Southwest. Not right along the border but something like that would serve multiple purposes;

Jobs during the construction
Immigration barrier to those that do cross illegally
Irrigation
Commerce
National Security.


All a pipe dream.
It would be a multi decade project of course and We don’t do big things any longer.

Space Force!

A quarter T? Who said the wall was going to cost 250 billion? I've seen estimates of somewhere around 20 billion on the high end

 

[danielpalos]

I don't like to live in a country of cowards cowering behind a wall

You you won't even HAVE a country without strong defensible borders which includes a wall.

we have a refugee problem not a common defense problem.

People who illegally crash our border are NOT refugees they are ILLEGAL ALIENS!! A refugee is NOT a refugee until identified as so by our border authorities. How can you be so ignorant?

you don't get to redefine the situation.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I don't like to live in a country of cowards cowering behind a wall

Oh, that reverse psychology guilt trip thing again? You all tried that multiple times with gun discussions. When are you on the left going to realize that doesn't work? It's painfully transparent.

I've noticed that the pro-wall people are ALWAYS blaming the left for being against the nutty wall idea. The facts are that I am a Republican as are the majority of the people in the U.S. Senate. When push comes to shove, most Republicans are against the nutty wall idea.

Ray, you cannot come to grips with the fact that a wall is a socialist solution looking for a problem to solve. When people show you instances when a wall does not work, you are complaining about how far back into history the other poster went to prove the point. Even going back to BIBLICAL times, walls have not been long term solutions for much of anything.

Those, such as yourself, like wailing about the damn wall, but cannot tell us a single problem you're really addressing. If those with a few IQ points show you what's wrong with the pretext you rely on, you want to move the goal posts.

I really wish you would quit blaming opposition to the wall on the Republicans. The only reason most of them are supporting idea is in the best interests of party unity so that other legislation does not get bogged down AND the fix is in. Once the wall is fully funded and Donnie gets his win, you can kiss that gun in your avatar good-bye.

For everything you gain there is something lost. Trump isn't God. He is playing the Art of the Deal. You're simply too ignorant to ask what the real cost - not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of legislation (legislation that will affect YOUR Liberties) does this nutty and INEFFECTIVE wall idea cost.

Sorry, turd, but you'll never convince me that you're a Republican. You walk like a Democrat, waddle like a Democrat and talk like a Democrat.

When you stoop to having to call people names you negate your own argument. The facts are that NO liberal has EVER quoted me. I have NEVER quoted a liberal in support of my position. The liberals have never made the same argument I have...but, they've damn well argued the points you make here on a daily basis:

What argument against the wall have you posted that hasn't been used by the left?

You've failed to state ANY position I've taken that the left agrees with.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

$4,000 raises? That's a new one on me. I never heard of that before and I watched the elections pretty closely.

So now your stance is to compare a 4th century wall to today? Then why is it where walls and fences are erected, they made noticeable improvement if not total improvement?

And you're claiming all drugs are coming in on drones? Very well, even though I don't believe a word of that (I know they use drones from time to time) what happens when we find a solution to that problem? Start the wall talk again? Wouldn't it be better to have the wall in place already when that happens?

Did you ever take notice that we pro-wall people don't give a rats ass who is paying for the wall, yet you on the left keep bringing that up like it's a relevant point to stop it?

Drugs go through checkpoints, also most illegals came by plane by the way. That's why we keep telling you a wall is useless.

Hmmm. Makes you wonder how those border agencies make thousands of busts every year by the border.

It makes wonder also how some of those border agents make more than their salaries, and dozens got arrested.

Really? When?

Dude I keep telling you the primary problem with you guys, anti immigrants, pro trump I'd being ignorant of facts and you live ina bunnle....we lose our shit trying to explain to you but your fear and ignorance is blinding uou.
Here read the article, and don't tell me is fake news.

U.S. Border Agency Says Hundreds of Employees Have Been Arrested Over 2 Years

I couldn't get to the site because they want money which I'm not about the pay. So I did a Google search to find a credible news source reporting on the story as well, and can't find one. I did find a story from some internet site called Pogo.com, however I never heard of them before and it's likely they just parroted the NYT story.

But in that story their claim is that 200 agents (80 of them border patrol) were arrested since 2004. No elaboration on how many were charged or actually convicted and for what offense.

 

[bripat9643]

Why is building a wall wrong?
1.) Why bother going to such drastic lengths to tackle a "problem" that's been on the decline? (See: Pew Research)
2.) Do the wall advocates realize there will never actually be a "full" wall? Recall the recent border fence and Landowner lawsuits. The Trump administration could use eminent domain to acquire the land but will have to negotiate compensation and WILL face lawsuits. More than 90 such lawsuits in southern Texas alone are still open from the effort to build a fence there.
3.) The wall isn't going to fix the drug problem. According to the DEA, most drugs come through legal ports of entry.
etc,etc,etc...

Trump has nothing to offer to ordinary Americans. Protection against predatory vultures, workers' bargaining powers, a healthy environment, a stable future for their kids, affordable (higher) education (etc.), there is nothing on the table. So, he lets himself be seen fighting like a lion against the imaginary Swamp, against the "establishment", to "protect" Americans against the "darkies" - their crime, disease, their drugs, and whatnot. A political ploy, and a boondoggle, campaign antics that have one major benefit: to be paid for by the taxpayers themselves.

What could be more alluring to the Trumpster Fire than that?

What a load of horseshit. I marvel at how you morons construct these fantasies based on a total lack of facts. Trump has reduced black unemployment to the lowest point it's ever been. Only a dumbass like you believes having a job is not important. I could go down your list of lies and deconstruct each one, but why bother? they are all obvious horseshit driven by hatred.

 

[bripat9643]

Oh, that reverse psychology guilt trip thing again? You all tried that multiple times with gun discussions. When are you on the left going to realize that doesn't work? It's painfully transparent.

I've noticed that the pro-wall people are ALWAYS blaming the left for being against the nutty wall idea. The facts are that I am a Republican as are the majority of the people in the U.S. Senate. When push comes to shove, most Republicans are against the nutty wall idea.

Ray, you cannot come to grips with the fact that a wall is a socialist solution looking for a problem to solve. When people show you instances when a wall does not work, you are complaining about how far back into history the other poster went to prove the point. Even going back to BIBLICAL times, walls have not been long term solutions for much of anything.

Those, such as yourself, like wailing about the damn wall, but cannot tell us a single problem you're really addressing. If those with a few IQ points show you what's wrong with the pretext you rely on, you want to move the goal posts.

I really wish you would quit blaming opposition to the wall on the Republicans. The only reason most of them are supporting idea is in the best interests of party unity so that other legislation does not get bogged down AND the fix is in. Once the wall is fully funded and Donnie gets his win, you can kiss that gun in your avatar good-bye.

For everything you gain there is something lost. Trump isn't God. He is playing the Art of the Deal. You're simply too ignorant to ask what the real cost - not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of legislation (legislation that will affect YOUR Liberties) does this nutty and INEFFECTIVE wall idea cost.

Sorry, turd, but you'll never convince me that you're a Republican. You walk like a Democrat, waddle like a Democrat and talk like a Democrat.

When you stoop to having to call people names you negate your own argument. The facts are that NO liberal has EVER quoted me. I have NEVER quoted a liberal in support of my position. The liberals have never made the same argument I have...but, they've damn well argued the points you make here on a daily basis:

What argument against the wall have you posted that hasn't been used by the left?

You've failed to state ANY position I've taken that the left agrees with.

You oppose the wall. You use all the same arguments as the left.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I've noticed that the pro-wall people are ALWAYS blaming the left for being against the nutty wall idea. The facts are that I am a Republican as are the majority of the people in the U.S. Senate. When push comes to shove, most Republicans are against the nutty wall idea.

Ray, you cannot come to grips with the fact that a wall is a socialist solution looking for a problem to solve. When people show you instances when a wall does not work, you are complaining about how far back into history the other poster went to prove the point. Even going back to BIBLICAL times, walls have not been long term solutions for much of anything.

Those, such as yourself, like wailing about the damn wall, but cannot tell us a single problem you're really addressing. If those with a few IQ points show you what's wrong with the pretext you rely on, you want to move the goal posts.

I really wish you would quit blaming opposition to the wall on the Republicans. The only reason most of them are supporting idea is in the best interests of party unity so that other legislation does not get bogged down AND the fix is in. Once the wall is fully funded and Donnie gets his win, you can kiss that gun in your avatar good-bye.

For everything you gain there is something lost. Trump isn't God. He is playing the Art of the Deal. You're simply too ignorant to ask what the real cost - not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of legislation (legislation that will affect YOUR Liberties) does this nutty and INEFFECTIVE wall idea cost.

Mr. Rockwell, I appreciate your concern and acknowledge your humanitarian side, but please read the rest of the watchdog's article of which I am quoting before you go too far down the road to letting sidewinders such easy access to the tax money we are presently paying if you have a few minutes:

Analysis: Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $116 billion annually ​

With ongoing violent protests in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens, immigration reformer advocates point to exponential costs taxpayers already pay for illegal immigrants, and how much more taxpayers would spend if they were given amnesty.

According to the most recent analysis by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), one illegal immigrant living in America today costs U.S. citizen taxpayers about $8,075. In total, illegal aliens cost American taxpayers $116 billion annually.

FAIR researchers note the increasing costs of illegal immigration is a “disturbing and unsustainable trend.” Costs to taxpayers have risen by nearly $3 billion since 2013, when illegal aliens’ total cost to taxpayers was $113 billion, according to FAIR.

The rest of the story: Analysis: Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $116 billion annually
​

$116,000,000,000/ 300,000,000 = $387.00 for every man, woman, and child living in this country right now, and half of them either have no income or are living on welfare, student loans, off their parents, or whatever, which doubles the ante to $773.00 for everyone earning wages. Why do people who work within the poverty status having to pay a noncitizen to get free housing, free food, free education, free utilities, free telephones, and everything else?

And if the government fixes it and poverty status taxpayers don't see a rise in their taxes, that leaves working parents trying to raise a family that omission, which means, they're having to pay about $5,000 apiece for this anomaly rather than save that for a rainy day or give donations to libraries, churches, museums, and other charitable causes.

Maybe my math isn't 100% perfect, but it could be low ball if we're forgetting other things than watchdog.org has discovered. The math doesn't lie.

Edit: One hundred and sixteen billion a year is what we're paying

​

I don't play to the humanitarian side. I've already exposed WHO the organizations you cite really are. A mind is like a parachute. It only operates when it's open.

The build the wall advocates make an idiotic claim about how much so called illegal aliens "cost," but they NEVER examine the other side of the ledger in order to understand why they are here. The reason I call their method idiotic is that it is BLATANTLY dishonest as if the rest of society is too stupid to examine the three most important facts:

1) As much as it makes Tea Party Republicans cringe, there are two sides of an accounting ledger and the supposed facts you cite do not figure in how much foreign labor contributes and how much wealth they create

2) The people on this thread, advocating for the wall, fight tooth and nail against the effort to rehabilitate those who are disenfranchised and get them working so that there is less demand for foreign labor

3) Tea Party Republicans want to keep a segment of their own people locked out of society and then blame the people that take the jobs Americans CANNOT take due to double minded people that want to keep some Americans from getting a job AND denying employers their unalienable Right to hire the person they want to hire for the job.

You're talking to a woman who lived on the border growing up and knows the lay of the land. It belongs to the people who pioneered it, had loved ones die at the Alamo for it, and have been here for generations. I'm not impressed with your lack of humanity for American citizens. That is all.

Again, did you bother to even READ this thread? Your insult shows a lack of honesty and understanding.

The people YOU SUPPORT hate the American citizenry and do not want them to be put back into the work-force.

If you want to look like you know what you're talking about you should read the thread or, if you're too lazy, ask questions before making ignorant assumptions.

I don't need to read every post you wrote to know where I stand on the Wall. It's right. It's appropriate. It prevents drug and criminal elements, and I'll fight tooth and nail over it because I lived on the border as a young person, and I have an absolutely perfect understanding of what is going on down there. You're the one who doesn't know anything about the people invading this country. Did you pay attention to the ones who were going to sue us for keeping them out? Ten years ago minute men guarded that border with the guns out of their home to discourage them from coming over here until the wall was built in some areas.

You're a heartless, thoughtless man who doesn't care about the people whose properties lie on the border, and they've had to pick up stuff we charge people $200 for litering the highways for a lot less garbage they throw out their windows.

And where the hell are you going to find landfill space for 200,000,000 more people in the next 20 years? Your backyard, maybe?

Yeah. Put it all in your back yard along with the road trimmings left here by those crossing the border who disrespect the environment. Make up all the you cans but we cannot rules you want to, but I'm betting on the wall, and that is never going to change until Mexico takes care of its own. That ain't gonna happen, because they like the kingpin idea with millions of poor people around to do their bidding. That ain't gonna happen if they take our border states away and let Mexico turn American citizens into pisanos.

I'll go buy a gun, although I have never owned one to keep them off my land, if you persist and win a walless world that is just waiting to kill all Americans.

So praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!

Today's lessons:

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him" Proverbs 18: 13

"1Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again."

You do not know me and you won't read the thread because if one is not for the wall, they are are heartless and don't care about their fellow man. That's your position?

Bear in mind it is those who want the wall that have not spoken out against build the wall advocates that believe in a 24 / 7 / 365 surveillance society that builds dossiers on Americans and locks them out of society. Those people cannot be reintroduced to society, but I'm supposed to be for a wall AND against reintroducing people to the workforce at the same time.

The reality is, I manned the border BEFORE it was an issue for any of you. I helped protect private property, lobbied for the Right of private property owners to protect their personal property, and fought against eminent domain abuse.

The border patrol advocates started out on the same page as I, but when they went to court and the judge ruled that civilian border patrollers were violating the civil rights of undocumented foreigners, the build the wall advocates did NOT appeal the decision. The law is what the law is the law is and the build the wall advocates are B.S. artists when they make the "Rule of Law" argument. The law is those undocumented foreigners have civil rights. That is the law and that decision is one that rests on the build the wall advocates.

As such, building a wall will bring new challenges to the table that will affect my Liberty, yours and generations yet to come. If subjected to a Cost / Benefits Analysis, the nutty wall idea will cost you most if not ALL your constitutional Rights. I'm working to get the American people who are disenfranchised and locked out a second chance. So, your uneducated and ignorant attacks are not worthy of any serious consideration.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I don't like to live in a country of cowards cowering behind a wall

Oh, that reverse psychology guilt trip thing again? You all tried that multiple times with gun discussions. When are you on the left going to realize that doesn't work? It's painfully transparent.

I've noticed that the pro-wall people are ALWAYS blaming the left for being against the nutty wall idea. The facts are that I am a Republican as are the majority of the people in the U.S. Senate. When push comes to shove, most Republicans are against the nutty wall idea.

Ray, you cannot come to grips with the fact that a wall is a socialist solution looking for a problem to solve. When people show you instances when a wall does not work, you are complaining about how far back into history the other poster went to prove the point. Even going back to BIBLICAL times, walls have not been long term solutions for much of anything.

Those, such as yourself, like wailing about the damn wall, but cannot tell us a single problem you're really addressing. If those with a few IQ points show you what's wrong with the pretext you rely on, you want to move the goal posts.

I really wish you would quit blaming opposition to the wall on the Republicans. The only reason most of them are supporting idea is in the best interests of party unity so that other legislation does not get bogged down AND the fix is in. Once the wall is fully funded and Donnie gets his win, you can kiss that gun in your avatar good-bye.

For everything you gain there is something lost. Trump isn't God. He is playing the Art of the Deal. You're simply too ignorant to ask what the real cost - not in terms of dollars and cents, but in terms of legislation (legislation that will affect YOUR Liberties) does this nutty and INEFFECTIVE wall idea cost.

Mr. Rockwell, I appreciate your concern and acknowledge your humanitarian side, but please read the rest of the watchdog's article of which I am quoting before you go too far down the road to letting sidewinders such easy access to the tax money we are presently paying if you have a few minutes:

Analysis: Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $116 billion annually ​

With ongoing violent protests in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens, immigration reformer advocates point to exponential costs taxpayers already pay for illegal immigrants, and how much more taxpayers would spend if they were given amnesty.

According to the most recent analysis by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), one illegal immigrant living in America today costs U.S. citizen taxpayers about $8,075. In total, illegal aliens cost American taxpayers $116 billion annually.

FAIR researchers note the increasing costs of illegal immigration is a “disturbing and unsustainable trend.” Costs to taxpayers have risen by nearly $3 billion since 2013, when illegal aliens’ total cost to taxpayers was $113 billion, according to FAIR.

The rest of the story: Analysis: Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $116 billion annually
​

$116,000,000,000/ 300,000,000 = $387.00 for every man, woman, and child living in this country right now, and half of them either have no income or are living on welfare, student loans, off their parents, or whatever, which doubles the ante to $773.00 for everyone earning wages. Why do people who work within the poverty status having to pay a noncitizen to get free housing, free food, free education, free utilities, free telephones, and everything else?

And if the government fixes it and poverty status taxpayers don't see a rise in their taxes, that leaves working parents trying to raise a family that omission, which means, they're having to pay about $5,000 apiece for this anomaly rather than save that for a rainy day or give donations to libraries, churches, museums, and other charitable causes.

Maybe my math isn't 100% perfect, but it could be low ball if we're forgetting other things than watchdog.org has discovered. The math doesn't lie.

Edit: One hundred and sixteen billion a year is what we're paying

​

I don't play to the humanitarian side. I've already exposed WHO the organizations you cite really are. A mind is like a parachute. It only operates when it's open.

The build the wall advocates make an idiotic claim about how much so called illegal aliens "cost," but they NEVER examine the other side of the ledger in order to understand why they are here. The reason I call their method idiotic is that it is BLATANTLY dishonest as if the rest of society is too stupid to examine the three most important facts:

1) As much as it makes Tea Party Republicans cringe, there are two sides of an accounting ledger and the supposed facts you cite do not figure in how much foreign labor contributes and how much wealth they create

2) The people on this thread, advocating for the wall, fight tooth and nail against the effort to rehabilitate those who are disenfranchised and get them working so that there is less demand for foreign labor

3) Tea Party Republicans want to keep a segment of their own people locked out of society and then blame the people that take the jobs Americans CANNOT take due to double minded people that want to keep some Americans from getting a job AND denying employers their unalienable Right to hire the person they want to hire for the job.

Even if they are "rehabilitated," they are still going to take a job that would otherwise go to a native born American. The are also going to create downward pressure on wages since they are will to work for a much lower wage than most Americans.

Employers have no "unalienable right" to hire people who are not in this country legally.

YES, under the original intent position of constitutional interpretation the employers DO have a Right to hire foreigners AND you cannot use the law to circumvent their Liberties. When it comes to foreigners, Congress has one very narrow area of AUTHORITY. Let me quote it for you:

"To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization" Article I Section 8

Now, let's prove you wrong. Within six months of the ratification of the Constitution, the first Naturalization Act was passed. It specified that only whites could become citizens. Yet MILLIONS of foreigners poured in to accept jobs willingly offered, realizing they would never become a part of the body politic.

Miscegenation laws were passed; voting and holding public office became privileges of citizenship and that was limited to white Protestants. Still foreigners came here and employers hired them.

What you're claiming has no basis in fact.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

we have a refugee problem not a common defense problem.

People who illegally crash our border are NOT refugees they are ILLEGAL ALIENS!! A refugee is NOT a refugee until identified as so by our border authorities. How can you be so ignorant?

You have it backwards, they are refugees unless and until a court of competent jurisdiction declares otherwise. People seeking asylum are ALLOWED to legally crash the borders in an effort to ask for asylum. What is wrong about what is happening at the border is the Trump Administration's bald faced attempt to prevent refugees from crossing into the USA to make that asylum claim. And then incarcerating those who claim asylum until their cases are heard.

What Trump is doing, is limiting how many people the system will process in a day, allowing a huge waiting list to accumulate in order to discourage those seeking to get in. This is both illegal and inhumane, and therein lies the problem. People don't have the resources to wait for months to claim asylum and the Trump Administration is gambling they will quit and leave, or even better, that conditions in the camps will get so bad that violence breaks out. Violence would be the fulfillment of all of your fears.

Trump and his acolytes has consistently attempted to de-humanize immigrants and asylum seekers. Just reading your post you've bought into this nazi bullshit wholeheartedly. If they're not really human, it doesn't matter what we do to them does it. Tear gas their children, let them go into convulsions without medical treatment and die, separate the parents from their children with no care or consideration for returning them to their families. Teaching an entire generation of Central Americans to hate the USA for turning their backs on them.

Immigrants are not "aliens", they are human beings, just like you and I. When you refer to refugees and asylum seekers as an "invasion", an "infestation", "alien", or "animals", it is YOU who are revealed to be subhuman, and unworthy of any consideration whatsoever.

As a purportedly Christian nation, I would remind you of the words of Jesus "That which you have done to the least among you, you have done to me!". If the barefoot and poor Jesus Christ had walked out of the desert and asked for asylum, you would turn Him away too.

I don't think Jesus would be lying about his asylum claim as most of the asylum seekers do. I don't think Jesus would throw rocks at our border agents or break down a temporary wall to enter illegally.

Yes, the worse you treat these people, the less will come. There were supposed to be tens of thousands more joining this current caravan. Where are they? Where did they go?

It's working. Finally, a President who is doing things that actually work. If you don't want to sit around for years picking your nose, if you don't want to be separated from your supposed children, if you don't want to be detained, then STF in your own country. Don't come here. Problem solved.

Most asylum seekers are not lying. But of course you think they are because . . .?

More people are coming regardless of how you treat them because they HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS. Their countries have been taken over by American narco-terrorists gangs. As long as you do nothing about the narco terrorists, refugees will continue to come.

There weren't tens of thousands joining the caravan. That would be another lie from FOX and Trump, ginning up support from fools like you.

Nope, that was all news agencies reporting those figures; some claiming into the millions. Not just Fox news.

It was also reported as the first caravan was approaching that other caravans were forming. Never happened after they heard the reports of the strong stance Trump was taking.

How do I know asylum seekers are lying? Because over 80% of asylum applications are rejected. All they really do is plug up the system.

Yes, they do have other options. One of course was to accept the asylum offerings by Mexico which most did not. Secondly is the option for those young men approaching our borders to fight in their own country to gain freedom.

And I never read your response on my suggestion that we just send these poor souls to Canada for you to deal with them instead of us. What's wrong, don't you Canadians want to be humanitarians?

Do you realize you've NEVER cited a single source except those from socialists as verification for your inane ideas?