Why Libertarianism Is So Dangerous...

[RKMBrown]

And that is almost every tax out there. Taxes, are by their very definition, compulsory. That's the point. If by not consenting you mean you refuse and take the risk of jail or worse, that's not voluntary consent, it's forced compliance, not consent. You seem to be confused about the NAP. What you're basically saying is that by not violently, or as passively as possible mitigating the taxation, and paying as much as you feel is worthy as possible, means its consent. When in reality, if I weren't faced with the prospects of a far worse punishment than the tax, I would pay none of it that I dont volunteer...by writing the check and sending it directly in under absolutely no obligation of force.

Anyway, you can go ahead and believe that your version is consent, to me your argument hinges essentially on "comply, resist or leave" as consent. When what it really is, is compliance.

As stated earlier in this thread you and I are likely in violent agreement with regard to the current federal taxes. Your issue with me, however, is made up by you. I did not say the current federal taxes are voluntary. You are making that up. What I said is that there is no reason any of the current taxes can't be made voluntary. To make them voluntary we just have to make them voluntary. Why you can't admit or consider that taxes could be made voluntary makes you sound silly. Making them voluntary requires something like a contract with consent and without coercion. It's not that hard. With regard to your "leave" argument, you must be talking about real-estate taxes again. When you sign an agreement to pay that tax you are moving to the location. You pick a location to move to based on whether or not you want to live there and pay the required taxes. There are some locations that do not have any required real-estate taxes. That is what we call free will. If some majority or elected representative creates a new tax that you have not volunteered to pay against your will then yeah sure that's aggression.

That item is in the contract only because the government forces the bank to put it in the contract. If government didn't force you to pay taxes, then there would be no mention of real estate taxes in a mortgage. Furthermore, you have to pay those taxes even if you pay cash for your house and there is no contract. Real estate taxes are no different in moral character than the protection money a business pays to Guido the Leg Breaker. Morally, the two kinds of payments are identical: they are both examples of coercion.

You are confusing mortgage for title. Typically in locations where there is a real-estate tax you can't "buy" a home without agreeing to pay the tax. Not even with cash. You can't obtain title for a piece of property without signing an agreement to adhere to the laws of the jurisdiction over said land when said people of said land have agreed to such laws for said properties of said land.

 

[RKMBrown]

Without threat of jail almost no one would pay taxes. However, that doesn't mean we wouldn't have police, fire protection or rescue. These things can all be funded privately and are funded privately in many locations.

So? What's the difference between volunteering to pay for police fire and rescue privately and volunteering to pay for police fire and rescue a the township level? What is the difference between a group of people of a township and a group of people of a private group? Both are groups, both are organizations, both are formed by the people of the group. Refuse to adhere to the rules of the group you get punished by the rules agreed to by the group that you decided to join.

Voting is not volunteering. If I vote against the tax, I'm still forced to pay it if the majority votes the other way. Buying a piece of property is not volunteering to pay for any costs imposed by third parties. buying a piece of property is not equivalent to "joining a group." Your group is nothing more than a criminal gang that extorts money from anyone located in their turf. They have no ethical or moral right to extort anything from anyone in their turf. A real "private group" cannot exclude you from anything other than what it owns. Your "township" can expropriate your property - something it clearly doesn't own.

For someone who claims to be a libertarian, you sure don't know the slightest thing about it.

Are you blind, daft, ignorant, or just willfully making shit up? Please show me where I said voting is volunteering. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is volunteering to pay for imposed costs. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is equivalent to joining a group.

What I said, clearly, is that voluntarily signing a contract to pay a tax is volunteering to pay the tax. In many cases, you don't get to buy a piece of property for a jurisdiction if you don't sign the contract to pay the tax. It's call contract law. You don't like the contract, don't sign it.

Please show me where libertarianism is defined as being against all voluntary contracts to pay for services.

 

[bripat9643]

As stated earlier in this thread you and I are likely in violent agreement with regard to the current federal taxes. Your issue with me, however, is made up by you. I did not say the current federal taxes are voluntary. You are making that up. What I said is that there is no reason any of the current taxes can't be made voluntary. To make them voluntary we just have to make them voluntary. Why you can't admit or consider that taxes could be made voluntary makes you sound silly. Making them voluntary requires something like a contract with consent and without coercion. It's not that hard. With regard to your "leave" argument, you must be talking about real-estate taxes again. When you sign an agreement to pay that tax you are moving to the location. You pick a location to move to based on whether or not you want to live there and pay the required taxes. There are some locations that do not have any required real-estate taxes. That is what we call free will. If some majority or elected representative creates a new tax that you have not volunteered to pay against your will then yeah sure that's aggression.

That item is in the contract only because the government forces the bank to put it in the contract. If government didn't force you to pay taxes, then there would be no mention of real estate taxes in a mortgage. Furthermore, you have to pay those taxes even if you pay cash for your house and there is no contract. Real estate taxes are no different in moral character than the protection money a business pays to Guido the Leg Breaker. Morally, the two kinds of payments are identical: they are both examples of coercion.

You are confusing mortgage for title. Typically in locations where there is a real-estate tax you can't "buy" a home without agreeing to pay the tax. Not even with cash. You can't obtain title for a piece of property without signing an agreement to adhere to the laws of the jurisdiction over said land when said people of said land have agreed to such laws for said properties of said land.

Those terms are in the contract only because the government compels them to be in the contract. They aren't voluntary.

Still no banana. There are no voluntary taxes.

 

[bripat9643]

So? What's the difference between volunteering to pay for police fire and rescue privately and volunteering to pay for police fire and rescue a the township level? What is the difference between a group of people of a township and a group of people of a private group? Both are groups, both are organizations, both are formed by the people of the group. Refuse to adhere to the rules of the group you get punished by the rules agreed to by the group that you decided to join.

Voting is not volunteering. If I vote against the tax, I'm still forced to pay it if the majority votes the other way. Buying a piece of property is not volunteering to pay for any costs imposed by third parties. buying a piece of property is not equivalent to "joining a group." Your group is nothing more than a criminal gang that extorts money from anyone located in their turf. They have no ethical or moral right to extort anything from anyone in their turf. A real "private group" cannot exclude you from anything other than what it owns. Your "township" can expropriate your property - something it clearly doesn't own.

For someone who claims to be a libertarian, you sure don't know the slightest thing about it.

Are you blind, daft, ignorant, or just willfully making shit up? Please show me where I said voting is volunteering. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is volunteering to pay for imposed costs. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is equivalent to joining a group.

What I said, clearly, is that voluntarily signing a contract to pay a tax is volunteering to pay the tax. In many cases, you don't get to buy a piece of property for a jurisdiction if you don't sign the contract to pay the tax. It's call contract law. You don't like the contract, don't sign it.

"Contract law" is a mixture of voluntary agreement and government imposed terms. None of the terms government imposes are voluntary.

All you've said is that if you don't like paying Guido for protection, then don't open a business in his turf. That's your conception of "voluntary."

 

[TakeAStepBack]

So? What's the difference between volunteering to pay for police fire and rescue privately and volunteering to pay for police fire and rescue a the township level? What is the difference between a group of people of a township and a group of people of a private group? Both are groups, both are organizations, both are formed by the people of the group. Refuse to adhere to the rules of the group you get punished by the rules agreed to by the group that you decided to join.

Voting is not volunteering. If I vote against the tax, I'm still forced to pay it if the majority votes the other way. Buying a piece of property is not volunteering to pay for any costs imposed by third parties. buying a piece of property is not equivalent to "joining a group." Your group is nothing more than a criminal gang that extorts money from anyone located in their turf. They have no ethical or moral right to extort anything from anyone in their turf. A real "private group" cannot exclude you from anything other than what it owns. Your "township" can expropriate your property - something it clearly doesn't own.

For someone who claims to be a libertarian, you sure don't know the slightest thing about it.

Are you blind, daft, ignorant, or just willfully making shit up? Please show me where I said voting is volunteering. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is volunteering to pay for imposed costs. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is equivalent to joining a group.

What I said, clearly, is that voluntarily signing a contract to pay a tax is volunteering to pay the tax. In many cases, you don't get to buy a piece of property for a jurisdiction if you don't sign the contract to pay the tax. It's call contract law. You don't like the contract, don't sign it.

Please show me where libertarianism is defined as being against all voluntary contracts to pay for services.

it's not voluntary. You can not negotiate the terms of the taxation within the contract. it is a demand. Therefore, your "signature" is an act of compliance, not volunterring.

 

[RKMBrown]

That item is in the contract only because the government forces the bank to put it in the contract. If government didn't force you to pay taxes, then there would be no mention of real estate taxes in a mortgage. Furthermore, you have to pay those taxes even if you pay cash for your house and there is no contract. Real estate taxes are no different in moral character than the protection money a business pays to Guido the Leg Breaker. Morally, the two kinds of payments are identical: they are both examples of coercion.

You are confusing mortgage for title. Typically in locations where there is a real-estate tax you can't "buy" a home without agreeing to pay the tax. Not even with cash. You can't obtain title for a piece of property without signing an agreement to adhere to the laws of the jurisdiction over said land when said people of said land have agreed to such laws for said properties of said land.

Those terms are in the contract only because the government compels them to be in the contract. They aren't voluntary.

Still no banana. There are no voluntary taxes.

Please show me a photo of someone holding a gun to your head when you signed your contract to pay your real-estate taxes. It doesn't matter who wrote the contract, it doesn't matter if the contract was written by you, your mother, your lawyer, or some public employee hired by the people of the city.. Being stupid enough to sign a contract that you don't agree with is not an excuse. You can't blame the people of the city for you begging the people of the city to let you sign their contract and move in to their district. Wow just wow.

 

[RKMBrown]

Voting is not volunteering. If I vote against the tax, I'm still forced to pay it if the majority votes the other way. Buying a piece of property is not volunteering to pay for any costs imposed by third parties. buying a piece of property is not equivalent to "joining a group." Your group is nothing more than a criminal gang that extorts money from anyone located in their turf. They have no ethical or moral right to extort anything from anyone in their turf. A real "private group" cannot exclude you from anything other than what it owns. Your "township" can expropriate your property - something it clearly doesn't own.

For someone who claims to be a libertarian, you sure don't know the slightest thing about it.

Are you blind, daft, ignorant, or just willfully making shit up? Please show me where I said voting is volunteering. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is volunteering to pay for imposed costs. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is equivalent to joining a group.

What I said, clearly, is that voluntarily signing a contract to pay a tax is volunteering to pay the tax. In many cases, you don't get to buy a piece of property for a jurisdiction if you don't sign the contract to pay the tax. It's call contract law. You don't like the contract, don't sign it.

Please show me where libertarianism is defined as being against all voluntary contracts to pay for services.

it's not voluntary. You can not negotiate the terms of the taxation within the contract. it is a demand. Therefore, your "signature" is an act of compliance, not volunterring.

I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong about taxation. Millions of people negotiate the terms of taxation every single day. Hell some cities even pay people to move to their district and spend money, such as by starting up new businesses. The number of negotiated exemptions (terms) for taxation are nearly endless. Only fools pay the full tax requested. When I bought my land 75% of the tax was exempted through negotiation. How? I said I'd use 75% of the land for wildlife management.

 

[bripat9643]

You are confusing mortgage for title. Typically in locations where there is a real-estate tax you can't "buy" a home without agreeing to pay the tax. Not even with cash. You can't obtain title for a piece of property without signing an agreement to adhere to the laws of the jurisdiction over said land when said people of said land have agreed to such laws for said properties of said land.

Those terms are in the contract only because the government compels them to be in the contract. They aren't voluntary.

Still no banana. There are no voluntary taxes.

Please show me a photo of someone holding a gun to your head when you signed your contract to pay your real-estate taxes. It doesn't matter who wrote the contract, it doesn't matter if the contract was written by you, your mother, your lawyer, or some public employee hired by the people of the city.. Being stupid enough to sign a contract that you don't agree with is not an excuse.

Of course it matters. If you don't have the ability to control what's in the contract then you haven't consented to every item in the contract. You aren't given the choice of signing a contract without the tax provisions because the government doesn't allow it. The government has the power to expropriate your property if you sign a contract that doesn't contain the terms that it demands.

There's nothing voluntary about it.

You can't blame the people of the city for you begging the people of the city to let you sign their contract and move in to their district. Wow just wow.

Why should the city have anymore say in the terms of the sales contract than Guido the leg breaker? Where did the city get the right to control who you can sell your property to and under what terms?

I sure as hell blame the people of the city for interfering in my contractual relationships.

 

[bripat9643]

Are you blind, daft, ignorant, or just willfully making shit up? Please show me where I said voting is volunteering. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is volunteering to pay for imposed costs. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is equivalent to joining a group.

What I said, clearly, is that voluntarily signing a contract to pay a tax is volunteering to pay the tax. In many cases, you don't get to buy a piece of property for a jurisdiction if you don't sign the contract to pay the tax. It's call contract law. You don't like the contract, don't sign it.

Please show me where libertarianism is defined as being against all voluntary contracts to pay for services.

it's not voluntary. You can not negotiate the terms of the taxation within the contract. it is a demand. Therefore, your "signature" is an act of compliance, not volunterring.

I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong about taxation. Millions of people negotiate the terms of taxation every single day. Hell some cities even pay people to move to their district and spend money, such as by starting up new businesses. The number of negotiated exemptions (terms) for taxation are nearly endless. Only fools pay the full tax requested. When I bought my land 75% of the tax was exempted through negotiation. How? I said I'd use 75% of the land for wildlife management.

Why are you even negotiating with the city when it doesn't own the property?

 

[RKMBrown]

Voting is not volunteering. If I vote against the tax, I'm still forced to pay it if the majority votes the other way. Buying a piece of property is not volunteering to pay for any costs imposed by third parties. buying a piece of property is not equivalent to "joining a group." Your group is nothing more than a criminal gang that extorts money from anyone located in their turf. They have no ethical or moral right to extort anything from anyone in their turf. A real "private group" cannot exclude you from anything other than what it owns. Your "township" can expropriate your property - something it clearly doesn't own.

For someone who claims to be a libertarian, you sure don't know the slightest thing about it.

Are you blind, daft, ignorant, or just willfully making shit up? Please show me where I said voting is volunteering. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is volunteering to pay for imposed costs. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is equivalent to joining a group.

What I said, clearly, is that voluntarily signing a contract to pay a tax is volunteering to pay the tax. In many cases, you don't get to buy a piece of property for a jurisdiction if you don't sign the contract to pay the tax. It's call contract law. You don't like the contract, don't sign it.

"Contract law" is a mixture of voluntary agreement and government imposed terms. None of the terms government imposes are voluntary.

All you've said is that if you don't like paying Guido for protection, then don't open a business in his turf. That's your conception of "voluntary."

All you've said is that you believe all tax revenue for all government services are equivalent to unlawful theft by the people who have decided to form a cooperative group to fund said services. What you have said is that you want to screw the group by stealing services from them.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

There is no place in the US where there are no property taxes unless you acquire some special interest exclusion from the state or federal government. What you're saying is if you dnot want to pay the tax, do not buy any proper and that this action constitutes consent. it doesn't. it's non-compliance. Someone may completely disagree with the contract terms and becausee they have no recourse, will sign anyway. That's compliance. it's not voluntary. You're very confused about what makes something an act of aggression and what makes something voluntary.

 

[bripat9643]

Are you blind, daft, ignorant, or just willfully making shit up? Please show me where I said voting is volunteering. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is volunteering to pay for imposed costs. Please show me where I said buying a piece of property is equivalent to joining a group.

What I said, clearly, is that voluntarily signing a contract to pay a tax is volunteering to pay the tax. In many cases, you don't get to buy a piece of property for a jurisdiction if you don't sign the contract to pay the tax. It's call contract law. You don't like the contract, don't sign it.

"Contract law" is a mixture of voluntary agreement and government imposed terms. None of the terms government imposes are voluntary.

All you've said is that if you don't like paying Guido for protection, then don't open a business in his turf. That's your conception of "voluntary."

All you've said is that you believe all tax revenue for all government services are equivalent to unlawful theft by the people who have decided to form a cooperative group to fund said services.

Yes, that much is true. It is not the equivalent of theft. It is theft, pure and simple.

What you have said is that you want to screw the group by stealing services from them.

Nope. I don't want their services and I don't feel obligated to pay for stuff I don't want. Why should some arbitrary group of people have the authority to impose their "services" on me?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong about taxation. Millions of people negotiate the terms of taxation every single day. Hell some cities even pay people to move to their district and spend money, such as by starting up new businesses. The number of negotiated exemptions (terms) for taxation are nearly endless. Only fools pay the full tax requested. When I bought my land 75% of the tax was exempted through negotiation. How? I said I'd use 75% of the land for wildlife management.

Right. You received a special exclusion and by which, to meet this exemption, you have special requirements to maintain. In other words, you're a subject and coworker of the state. This exemption can be removed for non-compliance to the demands. You can view this as voluntary, but it's compliance. The difference being that you can not avoid taxation without either a special arrangement, or without breaking the law. negotiating with the state is a matter of compliance, not volunteering.

 

[RKMBrown]

it's not voluntary. You can not negotiate the terms of the taxation within the contract. it is a demand. Therefore, your "signature" is an act of compliance, not volunterring.

I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong about taxation. Millions of people negotiate the terms of taxation every single day. Hell some cities even pay people to move to their district and spend money, such as by starting up new businesses. The number of negotiated exemptions (terms) for taxation are nearly endless. Only fools pay the full tax requested. When I bought my land 75% of the tax was exempted through negotiation. How? I said I'd use 75% of the land for wildlife management.

Why are you even negotiating with the city when it doesn't own the property?

To reduce taxes for the services attached by the people of the city to the title of the property.

The people created a means for negotiating exemptions for paying for said services through said taxation. I volunteered to pay my taxes by signing my title agreement. If I refused to sign the agreement I would not be able to purchase the land. We live by the rule of law in this country. Libertarianism is not anarchy. Libertarianism is not against the rule of law. If we did not live by the rule of law in this city I would not have had to sign the contract to gain title. I could have just taken the property by force. Is that what you want?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

You really aren't making an argument that taxation isn't theft. Furthermore, you're not entitled to speak on behalf of libertarianism. You can speak on your own behalf solely.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong about taxation. Millions of people negotiate the terms of taxation every single day. Hell some cities even pay people to move to their district and spend money, such as by starting up new businesses. The number of negotiated exemptions (terms) for taxation are nearly endless. Only fools pay the full tax requested. When I bought my land 75% of the tax was exempted through negotiation. How? I said I'd use 75% of the land for wildlife management.

Why are you even negotiating with the city when it doesn't own the property?

To reduce taxes for the services attached by the people of the city to the title of the property.

The people created a means for negotiating exemptions for paying for said services through said taxation. I volunteered to pay my taxes by signing my title agreement. If I refused to sign the agreement I would not be able to purchase the land. The reason is the people have laws. We live by the rule of law in this country. Libertarianism is not anarchy. Libertarianism is not against the rule of law.

You don't get it. Negotiating with the city over the terms of your property title is the same as negotiating with Guido the leg breaker over the terms of your business lease. Neither is a party to the transaction. Neither has anything at stake in the deal. Neither has any right to be a party to the transaction. They are involved only because they use the threat of force to insert themselves into the transaction.

The terms of any such contract are not voluntary. They are the result of compulsion.

 

[RKMBrown]

I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong about taxation. Millions of people negotiate the terms of taxation every single day. Hell some cities even pay people to move to their district and spend money, such as by starting up new businesses. The number of negotiated exemptions (terms) for taxation are nearly endless. Only fools pay the full tax requested. When I bought my land 75% of the tax was exempted through negotiation. How? I said I'd use 75% of the land for wildlife management.

Right. You received a special exclusion and by which, to meet this exemption, you have special requirements to maintain. In other words, you're a subject and coworker of the state. This exemption can be removed for non-compliance to the demands. You can view this as voluntary, but it's compliance. The difference being that you can not avoid taxation without either a special arrangement, or without breaking the law. negotiating with the state is a matter of compliance, not volunteering.

I volunteered to move here. I volunteered to become a land owner. I volunteered to sign the contract. I voluntarily and willfully complied to sign the contract. I volunteered to comply with the rule of law. I would not have moved here if there was no rule of law for which people were required to comply to own property. I would not have moved here if there was no cooperative for police, fire, and rescue. I don't have the time nor the inclination to personally create my own police, fire, and rescue. No one held a gun to my head to move here or sign their agreement to pay their taxes for police, fire, and rescue.

I have no desire to live on or next to a lawless piece of property.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

I'm not sure how someone could be this wrong about taxation. Millions of people negotiate the terms of taxation every single day. Hell some cities even pay people to move to their district and spend money, such as by starting up new businesses. The number of negotiated exemptions (terms) for taxation are nearly endless. Only fools pay the full tax requested. When I bought my land 75% of the tax was exempted through negotiation. How? I said I'd use 75% of the land for wildlife management.

Right. You received a special exclusion and by which, to meet this exemption, you have special requirements to maintain. In other words, you're a subject and coworker of the state. This exemption can be removed for non-compliance to the demands. You can view this as voluntary, but it's compliance. The difference being that you can not avoid taxation without either a special arrangement, or without breaking the law. negotiating with the state is a matter of compliance, not volunteering.

I volunteered to move here. I volunteered to become a land owner. I volunteered to sign the contract. I voluntarily and willfully complied to sign the contract. I volunteered to comply with the rule of law. I would not have moved here if there was no rule of law for which people were required to comply to own property. I would not have moved here if there was no cooperative for police, fire, and rescue. I don't have the time nor the inclination to personally create my own police, fire, and rescue. No one held a gun to my head to move here or sign their agreement to pay their taxes for police, fire, and rescue.

I have no desire to live on or next to a lawless piece of property.

If it was voluntary, you would be able to buy the property without the injection of demands from the state. What you mean to say is you choose to comply. Compliance is not the same as volunteering.

 

[Oddball]

Right. You received a special exclusion and by which, to meet this exemption, you have special requirements to maintain. In other words, you're a subject and coworker of the state. This exemption can be removed for non-compliance to the demands. You can view this as voluntary, but it's compliance. The difference being that you can not avoid taxation without either a special arrangement, or without breaking the law. negotiating with the state is a matter of compliance, not volunteering.

I volunteered to move here. I volunteered to become a land owner. I volunteered to sign the contract. I voluntarily and willfully complied to sign the contract. I volunteered to comply with the rule of law. I would not have moved here if there was no rule of law for which people were required to comply to own property. I would not have moved here if there was no cooperative for police, fire, and rescue. I don't have the time nor the inclination to personally create my own police, fire, and rescue. No one held a gun to my head to move here or sign their agreement to pay their taxes for police, fire, and rescue.

I have no desire to live on or next to a lawless piece of property.

If it was voluntary, you would be able to buy the property without the injection of demands from the state. What you mean to say is you choose to comply. Compliance is not the same as volunteering.

Methinks someone needs to Google "contract of adhesion".

 

[RKMBrown]

Why are you even negotiating with the city when it doesn't own the property?

To reduce taxes for the services attached by the people of the city to the title of the property.

The people created a means for negotiating exemptions for paying for said services through said taxation. I volunteered to pay my taxes by signing my title agreement. If I refused to sign the agreement I would not be able to purchase the land. The reason is the people have laws. We live by the rule of law in this country. Libertarianism is not anarchy. Libertarianism is not against the rule of law.

You don't get it. Negotiating with the city over the terms of your property title is the same as negotiating with Guido the leg breaker over the terms of your business lease. Neither is a party to the transaction. Neither has anything at stake in the deal. Neither has any right to be a party to the transaction. They are involved only because they use the threat of force to insert themselves into the transaction.

The terms of any such contract are not voluntary. They are the result of compulsion.

Wrong.

The people of a region are most certainly party to transactions that are associated with that region.

You can't move to a region and demand those people throw their laws away to suit your desire to mooch on what the people of that region built.