Why we want stimulus now and worry about deficits later

[saveliberty]

...and now it has accelerated even more. Not sure how blaming this person or that one is going to help at all. Are you interested in stopping the debt? Balancing the budget? If so, what areas do you see can be cut?

I can see reductions in defense spending, unemployment extentions, medicare and medicaid (apparently there's a lot of fraud, so a cut shouldn't hurt legitimate folks), foreign military aid and the postal service (five days a week is fine).

 

[saveliberty]

Did anyone ever answer the OP question? Why we want stimulus now and worry about deficits later?

Because, many have no intention of paying their own way and are perfectly okay with placing the yoke on future generations.

ilia is a good example, wait 20 to 30 years, see if it works itself out. You going to be in the workforce in that length of time ilia? So who really gets to pay?

 

[hortysir]

Thread-Killer

 

[ilia25]

By borrowing the idle cash in the private sector (idle means the owners neither want to spend it, nor invest it), and use it to place orders for f-22s and hire teachers.

And then, when the owners do want to spend or invest it, the government will have to damage the economy and raise taxes to repay the owners. Great idea!

First, rising tax rates may not be necessary -- the growing economy will make the debt irrelevant, just as it made WWII debt irrelevant long time ago (we never paid it off).

Second, a fast growing economy will need to be cooled down anyway. It can be achieved by the Fed rising the rates, but if we have a temporary tax rate hike (until we have a reduction in debt), the Fed would simply postpone its rise -- no "damage" to the economy either.

16 trillion dollars (and climbing) is never going to be irrelevant.

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?

And there is no such thing as a temporary tax. In fact the gas tax was supposed to be "temporary"

Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

 

[ilia25]

I wonder how far ilia has the credit cards run up at home?

That is actually a telling story -- the inability of most Americans to manage their own finances. That explains many problems US are facing.

I, like most people who can count, use my credit cards as a cash cow. I use them everywhere and they pay me a few hundred dollars each year. But I was shocked to learn that most Americans refuse to use their credit cards -- because they are afraid of high interest payments? Seriously? How dim those people must be?

And they vote nonetheless...

 

[Cammmpbell]

First, rising tax rates may not be necessary -- the growing economy will make the debt irrelevant, just as it made WWII debt irrelevant long time ago (we never paid it off).

Second, a fast growing economy will need to be cooled down anyway. It can be achieved by the Fed rising the rates, but if we have a temporary tax rate hike (until we have a reduction in debt), the Fed would simply postpone its rise -- no "damage" to the economy either.

16 trillion dollars (and climbing) is never going to be irrelevant.

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?

And there is no such thing as a temporary tax. In fact the gas tax was supposed to be "temporary"

Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

We didn't even have that to be concerned about till Reagan and the Bushes. Bill Clinton raised taxes, balanced the annual budget and bought back $450 billion of debt. George W. Bush cut taxes twice using reconciliation to block Democrat opposition, started two wars, one totally unnecessary then doubled the national debt from $5.7 to nearly $12 trillion. When he left office he left Obama an annual interest payment of $450 billion and it's more now.

 

[Skull Pilot]

First, rising tax rates may not be necessary -- the growing economy will make the debt irrelevant, just as it made WWII debt irrelevant long time ago (we never paid it off).

Second, a fast growing economy will need to be cooled down anyway. It can be achieved by the Fed rising the rates, but if we have a temporary tax rate hike (until we have a reduction in debt), the Fed would simply postpone its rise -- no "damage" to the economy either.

16 trillion dollars (and climbing) is never going to be irrelevant.

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?

And there is no such thing as a temporary tax. In fact the gas tax was supposed to be "temporary"

Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

And what will the interest costs be over those 50 years you fucking idiot?

And I don't know what crystal ball you're looking in but you absolutely cannot state with any certainty what GDP will be in 50 years

And No I do not trust government and if you do you're a fucking sheep just waiting to be slaughtered.

The gas tax was supposed to be temporary, it is now permanent. The fucking government lies to us all day every day and you sheep want to trust it?

 

[hortysir]

And what will the interest costs be over those 50 years you fucking idiot?

And I don't know what crystal ball you're looking in but you absolutely cannot state with any certainty what GDP will be in 50 years

And No I do not trust government and if you do you're a fucking sheep just waiting to be slaughtered.

The gas tax was supposed to be temporary, it is now permanent. The fucking government lies to us all day every day and you sheep want to trust it?

To help offset the costs of this massive increase in the size of the federal government, the President has proposed raising taxes by $2.1 trillion, according to an analysis by the House Ways and Means Committee. These tax hikes would hurt small businesses and farmers in Florida and across the country, and cost us much-needed jobs.
Even with these tax increases, the House Budget Committee estimates that the President's plan would require the country to borrow $11 trillion over the next ten years to pay for all of the new spending programs, leaving us with $25.9 trillion in gross debt. By the end of 2022, we would be spending nearly $1 trillion each year on interest payments alone. That is not sustainable.



Just received in my Congressman's weekly e-mail

 

[saveliberty]

I wonder how far ilia has the credit cards run up at home?

That is actually a telling story -- the inability of most Americans to manage their own finances. That explains many problems US are facing.

I, like most people who can count, use my credit cards as a cash cow. I use them everywhere and they pay me a few hundred dollars each year. But I was shocked to learn that most Americans refuse to use their credit cards -- because they are afraid of high interest payments? Seriously? How dim those people must be?

And they vote nonetheless...

Do you pay your balance off each month or continue to run up the balance?

 

[Skull Pilot]

16 trillion dollars (and climbing) is never going to be irrelevant.

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?

And there is no such thing as a temporary tax. In fact the gas tax was supposed to be "temporary"

Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

We didn't even have that to be concerned about till Reagan and the Bushes. Bill Clinton raised taxes, balanced the annual budget and bought back $450 billion of debt. George W. Bush cut taxes twice using reconciliation to block Democrat opposition, started two wars, one totally unnecessary then doubled the national debt from $5.7 to nearly $12 trillion. When he left office he left Obama an annual interest payment of $450 billion and it's more now.

Well you really shouldn't be counting Social Security in those surplus numbers so your figures are off a bit

FactCheck.org : The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton

Clinton’s large budget surpluses also owe much to the Social Security tax on payrolls. Social Security taxes now bring in more than the cost of current benefits, and the "Social Security surplus" makes the total deficit or surplus figures look better than they would if Social Security wasn’t counted. But even if we remove Social Security from the equation, there was a surplus of $1.9 billion in fiscal 1999 and $86.4 billion in fiscal 2000.

And a lot of that small surplus was due to the tech bubble and that quickly popped as soon as BJ Bill left office.

So it's not really that great an accomplishment.

BTW the national debt under Billy Boy increased from 4 trillion to nearly 6 trillion so tell me what good are surpluses when debt increases every year?

 

[Oddball]

Did anyone ever answer the OP question? Why we want stimulus now and worry about deficits later?

Because, many have no intention of paying their own way and are perfectly okay with placing the yoke on future generations.

ilia is a good example, wait 20 to 30 years, see if it works itself out. You going to be in the workforce in that length of time ilia? So who really gets to pay?

QFT!

 

[ilia25]

I wonder how far ilia has the credit cards run up at home?

That is actually a telling story -- the inability of most Americans to manage their own finances. That explains many problems US are facing.

I, like most people who can count, use my credit cards as a cash cow. I use them everywhere and they pay me a few hundred dollars each year. But I was shocked to learn that most Americans refuse to use their credit cards -- because they are afraid of high interest payments? Seriously? How dim those people must be?

And they vote nonetheless...

Do you pay your balance off each month or continue to run up the balance?

Of course I never carry my balance.

 

[ilia25]

16 trillion dollars (and climbing) is never going to be irrelevant.

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?

And there is no such thing as a temporary tax. In fact the gas tax was supposed to be "temporary"

Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

And what will the interest costs be over those 50 years you fucking idiot?

Foul language is a poor substitute for those math skills. As of now we pay under 170 billions in interest annually, which is a whopping 0.1% of GDP. 30 years latter those payments will consume less than 0.03% of our GDP.

And I don't know what crystal ball you're looking in but you absolutely cannot state with any certainty what GDP will be in 50 years

Well, GDP was growing that way since forever -- so we do have some certainty that the trend will continue. And in case it won't the government debt would the least of your worries.

The gas tax was supposed to be temporary, it is now permanent.

And we all know that the US government has never ever cut taxes

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?



Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

And what will the interest costs be over those 50 years you fucking idiot?

Foul language is a poor substitute for those math skills. As of now we pay under 170 billions in interest annually, which is a whopping 0.1% of GDP. 30 years latter those payments will consume less than 0.03% of our GDP.

I'll fucking swear any fucking time I fucking want mother fucker.

And you assume you know what GDP will be.

And I don't know what crystal ball you're looking in but you absolutely cannot state with any certainty what GDP will be in 50 years

Well, GDP was growing that way since forever -- so we do have some certainty that the trend will continue. And in case it won't the government debt would the least of your worries.

Since forever huh? Real precise math there bub.

The gas tax was supposed to be temporary, it is now permanent.

And we all know that the US government has never ever cut taxes

Yeah all those temporary taxes that aren't temporary anymore.

The fucking government tells people that the gas tax will be temporary and it's not, it's permanent now and it will never be gotten rid of.

Did you know the income tax was supposed to be temporary? It was meant to fund the Civil War.

In other words your shepherds told you they were taking you on a ride to the country and you still believed them when they dropped you off at the butcher's.

 

[ilia25]

And what will the interest costs be over those 50 years you fucking idiot?

Foul language is a poor substitute for those math skills. As of now we pay under 170 billions in interest annually, which is a whopping 0.1% of GDP. 30 years latter those payments will consume less than 0.03% of our GDP.

I'll fucking swear any fucking time I fucking want mother fucker.

Like you have any other choice

Since forever huh? Real precise math there bub.

Yes, moron, GDP has been growing exponentially since the ancient history. It was growing like that in the colonies long before the Revolution, and it was certainly growing exponentially in all the history of the USA.

It would take some damn big catastrophe to break that trend -- and even if it happens, the debt would the least of your worries.

 

[saveliberty]

Foul language is a poor substitute for those math skills. As of now we pay under 170 billions in interest annually, which is a whopping 0.1% of GDP. 30 years latter those payments will consume less than 0.03% of our GDP.

I'll fucking swear any fucking time I fucking want mother fucker.

Like you have any other choice

Since forever huh? Real precise math there bub.

Yes, moron, GDP has been growing exponentially since the ancient history. It was growing like that in the colonies long before the Revolution, and it was certainly growing exponentially in all the history of the USA.

It would take some damn big catastrophe to break that trend -- and even if it happens, the debt would the least of your worries.

You don't understand what exponentially means do you.
If your statement were even vaguely accurate, we would produce one hundred times over what we could consume by this point in history. No math skills, next to no understanding of economics and runaway spending habits.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Foul language is a poor substitute for those math skills. As of now we pay under 170 billions in interest annually, which is a whopping 0.1% of GDP. 30 years latter those payments will consume less than 0.03% of our GDP.

I'll fucking swear any fucking time I fucking want mother fucker.

Like you have any other choice

Since forever huh? Real precise math there bub.

Yes, moron, GDP has been growing exponentially since the ancient history. It was growing like that in the colonies long before the Revolution, and it was certainly growing exponentially in all the history of the USA.

It would take some damn big catastrophe to break that trend -- and even if it happens, the debt would the least of your worries.

Do you even listen to yourself"

"GDP has been growing exponentially since the ancient history"

FYI here is an example of exponential growth

Here is a graph of the growth of GDP

The reason the 2 charts don't look the same is because growth rates increase and decrease over time while exponential growth only increases at the same rate over time.

You'd think that if you're going to criticize the mathematical prowess of others that you would not be so ignorant of the subject as you obviously are.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

16 trillion dollars (and climbing) is never going to be irrelevant.

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?

And there is no such thing as a temporary tax. In fact the gas tax was supposed to be "temporary"

Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

We didn't even have that to be concerned about till Reagan and the Bushes. Bill Clinton raised taxes, balanced the annual budget and bought back $450 billion of debt. George W. Bush cut taxes twice using reconciliation to block Democrat opposition, started two wars, one totally unnecessary then doubled the national debt from $5.7 to nearly $12 trillion. When he left office he left Obama an annual interest payment of $450 billion and it's more now.

Clinton never balanced the budget, left Bush with $5,600,000,000,000 of debt and Bush had Congressional approval for Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh, btw... 5.7 x 2 is NOT 12, it's 11.4 which is nearer to 11 than 12.

You're welcome.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

16 trillion dollars (and climbing) is never going to be irrelevant.

I don't know what is your problem -- lack of math skills, or lack of imagination? In 30 years US GDP is going to be 50 to 70 trillion. That would make 16 trillion debt irrelevant, don't you think?

And there is no such thing as a temporary tax. In fact the gas tax was supposed to be "temporary"

Another thing all right wing types show is that they have no trust in democracy. For all their talk about the Constitution and Founding Fathers, they don't think that such thing as a government for the people, by the people ever possible.

The government does what people want it to do. If people want a temporary tax, then that is what a democratic government will do. It is just that a temporary tax almost never needed since any country can simply grow out of its debt -- as long as it borrows in its own currency.

We didn't even have that to be concerned about till Reagan and the Bushes. Bill Clinton raised taxes, balanced the annual budget and bought back $450 billion of debt. George W. Bush cut taxes twice using reconciliation to block Democrat opposition, started two wars, one totally unnecessary then doubled the national debt from $5.7 to nearly $12 trillion. When he left office he left Obama an annual interest payment of $450 billion and it's more now.

Clinton never balanced the budget, left Bush with $5,800,000,000,000 of debt and Bush had Congressional approval for Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh, btw... 5.7 x 2 is NOT 12, it's 11.4 which is nearer to 11 than 12.

You're welcome.

 

[saveliberty]

Well just leave those numbers in a room and in 20 or 30 years they'll work out to 12. Just ask ilia.