Why wouldn't Jesus...

[Si modo]

It's interesting to watch some Christians get very defensive about their faith.

While I do agree that there are many who do attack it, I don't understand why it would bother anyone who has a strong faith.

In "this" country, freedom of religion is set in our Constitution. If you do not "defend" that "freedom" there are those that would take that "freedom" from you. That is how those against "freedom" work; they chip away at things that don't seem important to most people and before you know it, they have divided the population into segments that are voting to take things from others. It ends in a total stain....

I understand that, definitely.

But what freedoms of religion are being taken away from Christians? (Let's not talk about the obvious one with Obamacare - the SCOTUS will take care of that.)

 

[logical4u]

You are comparing stoning with a religious marriage ceremony?

You really believe churches should be forced to go against their religion when it comes to something that harms nobody?

I'm more and more glad everyday that I don't belong to any particular church. You can't force me to accept ANYONE into my religion or force me to go against my religion.

BTW, I know a church that refused to marry a couple because she was Buddhist. Do you really think that Pastor should have been forced to go against his belief and marry them?

How do you Conclude that I want that?...

I am Warning of what others want.



peace...

It think the point is that we disallow stoning - a religious practice of Muslims - because it violates the Constitution here and violates individual rights guaranteed in the Constitution. Allowing same-sex marriages doesn't violate anyone's rights.

Of course, if the federal government wants to amend the Constitution regarding marriage, I will fight that tooth and nail. But, for other reasons.

Here is one for you: For sake of arguement, let's say homosexual marriage is legitimized thru "law". How many military people do you think will lose their lives to rescue and defend USA homosexual married couples that want to make a point and travel to countries where homosexuality is punishible by death, and then scream for the "gov't" to save them when they are imprisoned and put up for execution?

 

[logical4u]

It's interesting to watch some Christians get very defensive about their faith.

While I do agree that there are many who do attack it, I don't understand why it would bother anyone who has a strong faith.

In "this" country, freedom of religion is set in our Constitution. If you do not "defend" that "freedom" there are those that would take that "freedom" from you. That is how those against "freedom" work; they chip away at things that don't seem important to most people and before you know it, they have divided the population into segments that are voting to take things from others. It ends in a total stain....

I understand that, definitely.

But what freedoms of religion are being taken away from Christians? (Let's not talk about the obvious one with Obamacare - the SCOTUS will take care of that.)

Prayer in public places
saying "Jesus Christ" in prayers
displaying nativity scenes
handing out "Christian" pamphlets at islamic community events
crosses on public land
crosses on private land close to public places
teaching children "Christmas" carols in public schools
forming "Christian" groups at colleges with requirements that the leaders are "Christian"
groups that have Christian support publicly crediting "Christian" beliefs as part of the group's charter/rules/principals (at least in writing)

 

[hortysir]

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

Our society IS structured to support the poor.
Our Government is not.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God which is God's.

 

[Si modo]

In "this" country, freedom of religion is set in our Constitution. If you do not "defend" that "freedom" there are those that would take that "freedom" from you. That is how those against "freedom" work; they chip away at things that don't seem important to most people and before you know it, they have divided the population into segments that are voting to take things from others. It ends in a total stain....

I understand that, definitely.

But what freedoms of religion are being taken away from Christians? (Let's not talk about the obvious one with Obamacare - the SCOTUS will take care of that.)

Prayer in public places
saying "Jesus Christ" in prayers
displaying nativity scenes
handing out "Christian" pamphlets at islamic community events
crosses on public land
crosses on private land close to public places
teaching children "Christmas" carols in public schools
forming "Christian" groups at colleges with requirements that the leaders are "Christian"
groups that have Christian support publicly crediting "Christian" beliefs as part of the group's charter/rules/principals (at least in writing)

1 You can pray anywhere you want, as long as someone else isn't funding it, even in part. See, because not everyone in this country is obliged to pay for YOUR religion.

2. What law is preventing you from saying Jesus Christ in your prayers? Are agents in your church listening to what your prayers are? Are they in your bedroom listening to your prayers before sleep?

3. You can display nativity scenes, as long as others are not funding it, even in part.

4. Not when it cause a riot. See because the right to assemble peacefully is also a right guaranteed in the Constitution. And, no one is taking YOUR right to assemble peacefully away.

5. Again, no one should be forced, even in part, to fund YOUR religion.

6. That one I'll need a link to before I comment.

7. Public schools are funded by the public, obviously. If the non-Christian public doesn't want YOUR religion taught to THEIR children, then they have that right.

8. OK, I can't even imagine what your problem with that one is.

9. Again, the non-Christian public should never be required to fund, even in part, a religion that is not theirs.

 

[logical4u]

I understand that, definitely.

But what freedoms of religion are being taken away from Christians? (Let's not talk about the obvious one with Obamacare - the SCOTUS will take care of that.)

Prayer in public places
saying "Jesus Christ" in prayers
displaying nativity scenes
handing out "Christian" pamphlets at islamic community events
crosses on public land
crosses on private land close to public places
teaching children "Christmas" carols in public schools
forming "Christian" groups at colleges with requirements that the leaders are "Christian"
groups that have Christian support publicly crediting "Christian" beliefs as part of the group's charter/rules/principals (at least in writing)

1 You can pray anywhere you want, as long as someone else isn't funding it, even in part. See, because not everyone in this country is obliged to pay for YOUR religion.

2. What law is preventing you from saying Jesus Christ in your prayers? Are agents in your church listening to what your prayers are? Are they in your bedroom listening to your prayers before sleep?

3. You can display nativity scenes, as long as others are not funding it, even in part.

4. Not when it cause a riot. See because the right to assemble peacefully is also a right guaranteed in the Constitution. And, no one is taking YOUR right to assemble peacefully away.

5. Again, no one should be forced, even in part, to fund YOUR religion.

6. That one I'll need a link to before I comment.

7. Public schools are funded by the public, obviously. If the non-Christian public doesn't want YOUR religion taught to THEIR children, then they have that right.

8. OK, I can't even imagine what your problem with that one is.

9. Again, the non-Christian public should never be required to fund, even in part, a religion that is not theirs.

There has been ministers on public payrolls from the "continental congress" days.
No one is asking the public to pay for "my religion". Saying a prayer at a public gathering hurts no one, and may help everyone there. Throwing a hissy fit over a simple prayer is infringing on 'freedom of speech' (the prayer is opinion).

The military ministers are being told to "eliminate" using "Jesus Christ" from their "Christian" services. and the ACLU is using "Jesus Christ" as a reason to sue any institution that allows prayers.

Public land is "funded" by the public. If nativity scenes can not be displayed because that is a "belief" then there should be no stationary display of any kind on public lands (including during demonstrations, including OWS). BTW the public has been surveyed and over 80% claim to be "Christian". Can we get 80% of public spaces to demonstrate for "Christianity"? How about crosses or stars of David on national cemetary graves? Why should a less than 20% of the population get to tell over 80% of the population how their loved ones graves should be marked? Didn't the military service pay enough, does that person have to pay for eternity with no recognition of what made them serve?

Who is causing the riot? If someone is offering to hand out pamphlets, and those that are gathering confront and harrass the person, who's rights are being violated (kind of like the elderly woman that was knocked to the ground for walking thru a gay neighborhood with a cross) Are you saying that if people disagree with the demonstrators they should be allowed to riot and attack the demonstrators? Just who do the laws apply to in that case? Weren't the laws to be applied "equally"? There is nothing in the first amendment about freedom of speech, UNLESS it will cause a riot.

Most songs are written on beliefs. Can we, as parents get a list and tell the school what "Christians" do not want their children singing? Does it seem right that our country celebrates Christmas, and we teach about cultures, but we don't teach about Christmas? Are we actually going to have future generations that celebrate Christmas, but have no idea about the meaning behind it? Egads, even if you do not believe in the Lord, you should be aware of how important the Christian faith was to the founding of this country.

Amusing that the "non-Christian" public should not be "forced" to pay for any perceived religious display, but yet the "non-Christian" public has no problem whatsoever with forcing "Christians" to pay for abortions and other things that are directly against their faith.

 

[Si modo]

Prayer in public places
saying "Jesus Christ" in prayers
displaying nativity scenes
handing out "Christian" pamphlets at islamic community events
crosses on public land
crosses on private land close to public places
teaching children "Christmas" carols in public schools
forming "Christian" groups at colleges with requirements that the leaders are "Christian"
groups that have Christian support publicly crediting "Christian" beliefs as part of the group's charter/rules/principals (at least in writing)

1 You can pray anywhere you want, as long as someone else isn't funding it, even in part. See, because not everyone in this country is obliged to pay for YOUR religion.

2. What law is preventing you from saying Jesus Christ in your prayers? Are agents in your church listening to what your prayers are? Are they in your bedroom listening to your prayers before sleep?

3. You can display nativity scenes, as long as others are not funding it, even in part.

4. Not when it cause a riot. See because the right to assemble peacefully is also a right guaranteed in the Constitution. And, no one is taking YOUR right to assemble peacefully away.

5. Again, no one should be forced, even in part, to fund YOUR religion.

6. That one I'll need a link to before I comment.

7. Public schools are funded by the public, obviously. If the non-Christian public doesn't want YOUR religion taught to THEIR children, then they have that right.

8. OK, I can't even imagine what your problem with that one is.

9. Again, the non-Christian public should never be required to fund, even in part, a religion that is not theirs.

There has been ministers on public payrolls from the "continental congress" days.
No one is asking the public to pay for "my religion". Saying a prayer at a public gathering hurts no one, and may help everyone there. Throwing a hissy fit over a simple prayer is infringing on 'freedom of speech' (the prayer is opinion).

The military ministers are being told to "eliminate" using "Jesus Christ" from their "Christian" services. and the ACLU is using "Jesus Christ" as a reason to sue any institution that allows prayers.

Public land is "funded" by the public. If nativity scenes can not be displayed because that is a "belief" then there should be no stationary display of any kind on public lands (including during demonstrations, including OWS). BTW the public has been surveyed and over 80% claim to be "Christian". Can we get 80% of public spaces to demonstrate for "Christianity"? How about crosses or stars of David on national cemetary graves? Why should a less than 20% of the population get to tell over 80% of the population how their loved ones graves should be marked? Didn't the military service pay enough, does that person have to pay for eternity with no recognition of what made them serve?

Who is causing the riot? If someone is offering to hand out pamphlets, and those that are gathering confront and harrass the person, who's rights are being violated (kind of like the elderly woman that was knocked to the ground for walking thru a gay neighborhood with a cross) Are you saying that if people disagree with the demonstrators they should be allowed to riot and attack the demonstrators? Just who do the laws apply to in that case? Weren't the laws to be applied "equally"? There is nothing in the first amendment about freedom of speech, UNLESS it will cause a riot.

Most songs are written on beliefs. Can we, as parents get a list and tell the school what "Christians" do not want their children singing? Does it seem right that our country celebrates Christmas, and we teach about cultures, but we don't teach about Christmas? Are we actually going to have future generations that celebrate Christmas, but have no idea about the meaning behind it? Egads, even if you do not believe in the Lord, you should be aware of how important the Christian faith was to the founding of this country.

Amusing that the "non-Christian" public should not be "forced" to pay for any perceived religious display, but yet the "non-Christian" public has no problem whatsoever with forcing "Christians" to pay for abortions and other things that are directly against their faith.

I'll need a link to the military ministers comment. See, my future brother in law is a priest, a Lt. Col., and a chaplain in the Army and that is not any rule he knows of or follows.

So, let's look at some of your things on your list with just a few minor changes then let us know what you would think:

Maghrib in public places

Handing out "Muslim" pamphlets at Christian community events (when clearly their presence is not wanted, as it wasn't wanted when situations were reversed)

Muslim symbols on public land (for example, a copy of a book on Sharia law on display before you enter a courthouse)


Teaching children Maghrib and Dhuhr prayers, or songs praising Muhammed in public schools


I don't know about you, but I sure as hell would make a stink about that.

 

[Ravi]

How do you Conclude that I want that?...

I am Warning of what others want.



peace...

It think the point is that we disallow stoning - a religious practice of Muslims - because it violates the Constitution here and violates individual rights guaranteed in the Constitution. Allowing same-sex marriages doesn't violate anyone's rights.

Of course, if the federal government wants to amend the Constitution regarding marriage, I will fight that tooth and nail. But, for other reasons.

Here is one for you: For sake of arguement, let's say homosexual marriage is legitimized thru "law". How many military people do you think will lose their lives to rescue and defend USA homosexual married couples that want to make a point and travel to countries where homosexuality is punishible by death, and then scream for the "gov't" to save them when they are imprisoned and put up for execution?

Quoted for stupid.

 

[Ravi]

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

Our society IS structured to support the poor.
Our Government is not.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God which is God's.

In a democracy, the society controls the government. There is no Ceasar, unless it is us.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I might argue that for some, religion is USURPED by Government Playing God, because of Flaws in Our Human Nature. Individual Greed is not related to this sickness. To USURP, the Rule of Law must be controlled, which Religion plays very little part in, in the Western World anyway. Islamic Totalitarian Domination, the Exception.

When was the Last Catholic Cathedral Built ?

Seems more like you blame the churches for what you can't get your hands on.

The only reason Western Civilization is as secular as it is is because of timing. 250 years ago the military authority backing the various governments being tried on by Western Civilization was influenced by religion if not controlled by it.

Perhaps 250 years from now our children will spend their lives reaching for the stars instead of fighting over whose God created them.

I think that they will be fighting over the Stars.

Doesn't that thinking fly in the face of "Christian" beliefs?

 

[hortysir]

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

Our society IS structured to support the poor.
Our Government is not.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God which is God's.

In a democracy, the society controls the government. There is no Ceasar, unless it is us.

Therefore making it society's responsibility to take up the yoke and help the poor and keep government out of it.

 

[logical4u]

1 You can pray anywhere you want, as long as someone else isn't funding it, even in part. See, because not everyone in this country is obliged to pay for YOUR religion.

2. What law is preventing you from saying Jesus Christ in your prayers? Are agents in your church listening to what your prayers are? Are they in your bedroom listening to your prayers before sleep?

3. You can display nativity scenes, as long as others are not funding it, even in part.

4. Not when it cause a riot. See because the right to assemble peacefully is also a right guaranteed in the Constitution. And, no one is taking YOUR right to assemble peacefully away.

5. Again, no one should be forced, even in part, to fund YOUR religion.

6. That one I'll need a link to before I comment.

7. Public schools are funded by the public, obviously. If the non-Christian public doesn't want YOUR religion taught to THEIR children, then they have that right.

8. OK, I can't even imagine what your problem with that one is.

9. Again, the non-Christian public should never be required to fund, even in part, a religion that is not theirs.

There has been ministers on public payrolls from the "continental congress" days.
No one is asking the public to pay for "my religion". Saying a prayer at a public gathering hurts no one, and may help everyone there. Throwing a hissy fit over a simple prayer is infringing on 'freedom of speech' (the prayer is opinion).

The military ministers are being told to "eliminate" using "Jesus Christ" from their "Christian" services. and the ACLU is using "Jesus Christ" as a reason to sue any institution that allows prayers.

Public land is "funded" by the public. If nativity scenes can not be displayed because that is a "belief" then there should be no stationary display of any kind on public lands (including during demonstrations, including OWS). BTW the public has been surveyed and over 80% claim to be "Christian". Can we get 80% of public spaces to demonstrate for "Christianity"? How about crosses or stars of David on national cemetary graves? Why should a less than 20% of the population get to tell over 80% of the population how their loved ones graves should be marked? Didn't the military service pay enough, does that person have to pay for eternity with no recognition of what made them serve?

Who is causing the riot? If someone is offering to hand out pamphlets, and those that are gathering confront and harrass the person, who's rights are being violated (kind of like the elderly woman that was knocked to the ground for walking thru a gay neighborhood with a cross) Are you saying that if people disagree with the demonstrators they should be allowed to riot and attack the demonstrators? Just who do the laws apply to in that case? Weren't the laws to be applied "equally"? There is nothing in the first amendment about freedom of speech, UNLESS it will cause a riot.

Most songs are written on beliefs. Can we, as parents get a list and tell the school what "Christians" do not want their children singing? Does it seem right that our country celebrates Christmas, and we teach about cultures, but we don't teach about Christmas? Are we actually going to have future generations that celebrate Christmas, but have no idea about the meaning behind it? Egads, even if you do not believe in the Lord, you should be aware of how important the Christian faith was to the founding of this country.

Amusing that the "non-Christian" public should not be "forced" to pay for any perceived religious display, but yet the "non-Christian" public has no problem whatsoever with forcing "Christians" to pay for abortions and other things that are directly against their faith.

I'll need a link to the military ministers comment. See, my future brother in law is a priest, a Lt. Col., and a chaplain in the Army and that is not any rule he knows of or follows.

So, let's look at some of your things on your list with just a few minor changes then let us know what you would think:

Maghrib in public places

Handing out "Muslim" pamphlets at Christian community events (when clearly their presence is not wanted, as it wasn't wanted when situations were reversed)

Muslim symbols on public land (for example, a copy of a book on Sharia law on display before you enter a courthouse)


Teaching children Maghrib and Dhuhr prayers, or songs praising Muhammed in public schools


I don't know about you, but I sure as hell would make a stink about that.

Not sure what Maghrib is. If it is a prayer for wellness and care of those there, I cannot see the harm.

I have no problem with muslims "printing" what they actually believe and handing it out, even at Christian events.

I don't think a copy of Shariah law would be appropriate in this land, where laws are important. Shariah is a system of deceit and destruction. Are you suggesting that the Shariah law stand where if you are not muslim, your witness and word mean nothing compared to any slander a muslim wants to tell (this happens frequently in muslim countries)? And the hole in NYC where the towers stood does bother me. How many more "symbols" of islam like that do we need before we call islam what it is? Do I have a problem with a mulsim soldier wanting a sword or moon to mark his grave, no, I do not have a problem with that. If there is a story of Mohammed showing kindness to anyone, I would not have a problem with that, either. Can you explain how a "babe in a manger" is "offensive"?

There are children being taught muslim prayers and songs in school. It is "cultural education". You know where you study the different cultures in the world. The only culture not studied is Christianity, wonder why???

 

[logical4u]

It think the point is that we disallow stoning - a religious practice of Muslims - because it violates the Constitution here and violates individual rights guaranteed in the Constitution. Allowing same-sex marriages doesn't violate anyone's rights.

Of course, if the federal government wants to amend the Constitution regarding marriage, I will fight that tooth and nail. But, for other reasons.

Here is one for you: For sake of arguement, let's say homosexual marriage is legitimized thru "law". How many military people do you think will lose their lives to rescue and defend USA homosexual married couples that want to make a point and travel to countries where homosexuality is punishible by death, and then scream for the "gov't" to save them when they are imprisoned and put up for execution?

Quoted for stupid.

Yeah, normal response.... We don't want to talk about the realities that will come, just the rose-colored pictures we paint.

 

[mal]

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

I Find it Entertaining that those who so Obviously Hate Christianity and do NOT Believe that Christ is the Saviour, are the First One's to Envoke his Name for their own Dishonest Political Gain...

Quote Christ on Government Welfare, or Providing for the Collective via Tax Dollars...

Charity can't be Forced by Law.



peace...

I posted this Thread Killer 3 years ago... Ravir Dismissed it... As would be Expected.



peace...

 

[HUGGY]

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

I Find it Entertaining that those who so Obviously Hate Christianity and do NOT Believe that Christ is the Saviour, are the First One's to Envoke his Name for their own Dishonest Political Gain...

Quote Christ on Government Welfare, or Providing for the Collective via Tax Dollars...

Charity can't be Forced by Law.



peace...

Are you insane?

Fair question!

 

[Ravi]

Our society IS structured to support the poor.
Our Government is not.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God which is God's.

In a democracy, the society controls the government. There is no Ceasar, unless it is us.

Therefore making it society's responsibility to take up the yoke and help the poor and keep government out of it.

You've avoided answering the question in the OP but thanks for playing!

 

[mal]

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

I Find it Entertaining that those who so Obviously Hate Christianity and do NOT Believe that Christ is the Saviour, are the First One's to Envoke his Name for their own Dishonest Political Gain...

Quote Christ on Government Welfare, or Providing for the Collective via Tax Dollars...

Charity can't be Forced by Law.



peace...

Are you insane?

Fair question!

Link?



peace...

 

[hortysir]

In a democracy, the society controls the government. There is no Ceasar, unless it is us.

Therefore making it society's responsibility to take up the yoke and help the poor and keep government out of it.

You've avoided answering the question in the OP but thanks for playing!

You don't believe there to be a Christ.
Therefore no answer I give will break through your incorrectly preconceived notions of what HE would teach.

Jesus taught us how to "structure" our hearts and our selves in order to prepare for His Kingdom.
God's "society" is all we should be concerned about.

Helping the poor and down-trodden is each individual's responsibility.
Not "society's".

I'm sorry if these answers don't fit your mold.
Doesn't make them less true, however.

 

[Katzndogz]

Jesus said to help the poor, not enable the lazy, envious and avaricious. Jesus did not tell His followers to help the sinner get better at committing their sin.

 

[Sky Dancer]

In that case, Jesus would be mighty angry at Wall St.