Will you vote for Ron Paul?

[Foxfyre]

The Panic of 2008 parallels the Panic of 1873* in important ways. It differs in others. The comparison is instructive.

Considering the resemblance of 2008 to 1873, we may experience a serious depression of 3—5 years. The most important difference is the response of government. President Grant vetoed a Congressional bill calling for a large issue of greenbacks (non-interest bearing government notes), whereas the Panic of 2008 involves the socialization of American finance. This is occurring now via the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. Secretary Paulson has already made 9 major banks sign on the dotted line. The Federal Reserve is emerging from this episode in weakened condition as an appendage of the Treasury.

Let's look at the Panics of 1873 and 2008. Preceding the Panic of 1873 was a boom in railroad building. Preceding the Panic of 2008 was a boom in housing. The Federal government had subsidized construction of such major railroads as the Union Pacific, Central Pacific, and Northern Pacific through land grants and low-interest loans, starting in 1862 and ending in 1869. In the recent housing boom, banks were urged to use their ample reserves to finance home purchases by subpar borrowers.

In both these cases, the government established a framework, regulatory and monetary, for intensive expansion in an industry. Private industry then rose to the occasion and responded vigorously.

_____________________________
* Prior to 1913 the US Treasury would act as a central bank

.

I don't see all that much similarity in the two, however. The housing bubble crash of 2008 was created by government enacting policy allowing and then pushing mostly signature mortgage loans to people who had no capability or ethic to repay them and then Freddie and Fannie unethically bundled those bad loans and sold them to financial institutions who, unaware of the high risk involved or unwilling to worry about it, eagerly accepted those investments. And when that huge number of people started defaulting on those loans, the whole house of cards collapsed and, coupled with a general worldwide recession that happens now and then, was financially disastrous for the USA.

The crash of 1873 was also a general worldwide recession and was exacerbated by the setback of the railroad industry that had over speculated and overbuilt to the extent they could not recoup their investment even in a good economy. And in a bad economy it was disastrous as then the railroads I believe were the nation's largest employer.

Admittedly both were encouraged by the government so I suppose they did have that in common.

Ron Paul is on the right track in his conviction that government should not be promoting bad loans or over speculation in anything.

But I don't see what that has to do directly with the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve is responsible for increasing the money supply and lowering interest rates which induces so much malinvestment.

The Fed injects tons of new money into the system, people look for the hottest places to put that money to work because it's going to lose value from inflation, and then a bubble forms and grows.

Then the Fed tightens up the flow of money by raising rates, the bubble bursts, the money supply deflates, and the Fed reinflates again by creating more new money and lowering rates again, wash/rinse/repeat.

The Fed causes the business cycle. I don't see how people don't realize it.

But there were 'disastrous' business cycles from the Revolutionary War on while the Federal Reserve was not established until 1913.

 

[sinister59]

Would you vote for Ron Paul?

no

 

[P F Tinmore]

Let's make it simple. Anyone who will not:

End the Fed
Close all foreign military bases and bring all troops home
End all foreign aid
Cancel NAFTA

Will not get my vote or support.

You'll be in the majority of Americans who don't bother to vote.

I voted for someone last election that fit that profile.

But, too many people got suckered into voting for McBama.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Obama packs the pockets of his rich friends with our tax money.

How is that Marxist?

People who can afford socialism love it. I agree however that Obama is more of an evolutionary progressive than a revolutionary one. Like other's of his ilk he will use whatever authoritarian policy serves the cause, be it fascist policy, socialist policy, or straight up oligarchic authoritarianism.

Obama is a corporate stooge. This seems to run counter to Marxism as I understand it.

 

[Contumacious]

But there were 'disastrous' business cycles from the Revolutionary War on while the Federal Reserve was not established until 1913.

The Panic of 1819, Murray Rothbard's incisive and extremely well-styled Columbia University dissertation, provides an answer and a fascinating history of the era.

The panic and depression were a result of a huge monetary inflation. After the War of 1812, the economy flourished, as loosely chartered State banks issued redeemable notes far beyond specie. The quantity of money multiplied rapidly. In 1815 alone, bank notes increased from $46 million to $68 million.

Eventually, bank notes began selling at a discount, as foreigners and money brokers profitably claimed the notes for specie. In addition, the Bank of the United States' began to call on branches to redeem other bank obligations. The monetary expansion ended abruptly and a wave of bankruptcies ensued.

.

.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Panic of 2008 parallels the Panic of 1873* in important ways. It differs in others. The comparison is instructive.

Considering the resemblance of 2008 to 1873, we may experience a serious depression of 3—5 years. The most important difference is the response of government. President Grant vetoed a Congressional bill calling for a large issue of greenbacks (non-interest bearing government notes), whereas the Panic of 2008 involves the socialization of American finance. This is occurring now via the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. Secretary Paulson has already made 9 major banks sign on the dotted line. The Federal Reserve is emerging from this episode in weakened condition as an appendage of the Treasury.

Let's look at the Panics of 1873 and 2008. Preceding the Panic of 1873 was a boom in railroad building. Preceding the Panic of 2008 was a boom in housing. The Federal government had subsidized construction of such major railroads as the Union Pacific, Central Pacific, and Northern Pacific through land grants and low-interest loans, starting in 1862 and ending in 1869. In the recent housing boom, banks were urged to use their ample reserves to finance home purchases by subpar borrowers.

In both these cases, the government established a framework, regulatory and monetary, for intensive expansion in an industry. Private industry then rose to the occasion and responded vigorously.

_____________________________
* Prior to 1913 the US Treasury would act as a central bank

.

I don't see all that much similarity in the two, however. The housing bubble crash of 2008 was created by government enacting policy allowing and then pushing mostly signature mortgage loans to people who had no capability or ethic to repay them and then Freddie and Fannie unethically bundled those bad loans and sold them to financial institutions who, unaware of the high risk involved or unwilling to worry about it, eagerly accepted those investments. And when that huge number of people started defaulting on those loans, the whole house of cards collapsed and, coupled with a general worldwide recession that happens now and then, was financially disastrous for the USA.

The crash of 1873 was also a general worldwide recession and was exacerbated by the setback of the railroad industry that had over speculated and overbuilt to the extent they could not recoup their investment even in a good economy. And in a bad economy it was disastrous as then the railroads I believe were the nation's largest employer.

Admittedly both were encouraged by the government so I suppose they did have that in common.

Ron Paul is on the right track in his conviction that government should not be promoting bad loans or over speculation in anything.

But I don't see what that has to do directly with the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve is responsible for increasing the money supply and lowering interest rates which induces so much malinvestment.

The Fed injects tons of new money into the system, people look for the hottest places to put that money to work because it's going to lose value from inflation, and then a bubble forms and grows.

Then the Fed tightens up the flow of money by raising rates, the bubble bursts, the money supply deflates, and the Fed reinflates again by creating more new money and lowering rates again, wash/rinse/repeat.

The Fed causes the business cycle. I don't see how people don't realize it.

And, in each of those "business cycles" the friends of the Fed get your money.

 

[Zona]

Lastly Zona,

I don't play in a "band". I play with two other guys. One is another guitarist/singer, the other is a harmonica player/singer. We play roots music. We don't do "techno", "rap", or even much rock and roll.

We play mostly blues, with a little bit of folk, bluegrass and rock sprinkled in.

But that's really not the point, is it? The point is that I've reduced you to the same One line, ignorance filled insults that I do when I debate the radical right.

The truth is, you don't want to even look at your own position with anything other than the stance you choose to make for yourself. Just like the Beckians and the Palin-ese... you want things your way and no one else matters.

Because I dont want to sit next to a smoker when I eat? Seriously, you took my position on this to come up with a synopsis of me?

This says a lot about you really. I dont want to sit next to a person blowing his nasty cigarette smoke in my face. If that makes me a horrible person, then so be it.

Get it now?

Oh and honestly, I could care less about how much money you do or dont make with the music you play. You seem to be very bitter about the music industry (notice how I wont go beyond commenting on your views on the music industry because its what YOU commented on) and that is your problem, not mine. YOu came out of no where showing how much you dont know about me, stating something about me watching American fucking idol? Really?

Damn dude.

 

[Zona]

You don't have to worry about Paul being president, there is no way in hell he will be elected. He's too damn nutty. He's wasting his damn time and supporters money. So, quit yer bitchin'.

You've got bigger things to worry about, like Obama's inept self being tossed out on his ear, ala Jimmy Carter.

Oh, and was the anti-smoking law voted on by the people, or just shoved down their throats by your city or county government?

man up and say it...will he or wont he win in 2012? Say it! I dare you!

Fucking pot head.

I said it in that referenced post, you drunken, bitter, handout taking, government leaching, ghetto dwelling loser.

But i'll say it again, for that rare time you are actually sober, AND MAY ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND:

Ron Paul doesn't have a chance in hell. He's a nutjob. HE WILL NOT BE ELECTED!

You are very weak trying to tie me in with booze. Here is how this works, since you fucked up and admitted you had a drug charge and I continually throw it up in your face, you are weakly trying to call me a drunk. Here is the thing skippy pot head, I dont drink. Now you are saying I am a handout taking government leaching person..if by handout you mean getting a retirement check monthly because I did 20 years in the Navy...then yes, I am. Ghetto dwelling? Where I live? Really? ok.

You really really do look dumb here dude, but continue..you self admitted drug charged (and convicted) Ranger.

You fucked up. YOu admitted your drug charge. Deal with it.

 

[Wicked Jester]

man up and say it...will he or wont he win in 2012? Say it! I dare you!

Fucking pot head.

I said it in that referenced post, you drunken, bitter, handout taking, government leaching, ghetto dwelling loser.

But i'll say it again, for that rare time you are actually sober, AND MAY ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND:

Ron Paul doesn't have a chance in hell. He's a nutjob. HE WILL NOT BE ELECTED!

You are very weak trying to tie me in with booze. Here is how this works, since you fucked up and admitted you had a drug charge and I continually throw it up in your face, you are weakly trying to call me a drunk. Here is the thing skippy pot head, I dont drink. Now you are saying I am a handout taking government leaching person..if by handout you mean getting a retirement check monthly because I did 20 years in the Navy...then yes, I am. Ghetto dwelling? Where I live? Really? ok.

You really really do look dumb here dude, but continue..you self admitted drug charged (and convicted) Ranger.

You fucked up. YOu admitted your drug charge. Deal with it.

It was an infraction, fool....No court martial necessary........I didn't use, sell, or procure.

I let someone smoke in my room, and accepted responsiblity.....Hence, a slap on the wrist.

And, if you're not a fuckin' drunk, then you are obvioulsy one mentally unstable, and bitterly angry man.

I've yet to see a post from you that wasn't some frothing at the mouth display of abject anger and bitterness.......And that goes way back to the ol' MSNBC board.

There's something wrong with you Zona. I seriously hope you get help before you blow an aneurysm straight out your fuckin' ear.

BTW, were ever able to prove that Allen West was forced to retire?.....You made that claim (lied through your teeth) and then fled from that thread without proving it. Why is that, Zona?

 

[Zona]

I said it in that referenced post, you drunken, bitter, handout taking, government leaching, ghetto dwelling loser.

But i'll say it again, for that rare time you are actually sober, AND MAY ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND:

Ron Paul doesn't have a chance in hell. He's a nutjob. HE WILL NOT BE ELECTED!

You are very weak trying to tie me in with booze. Here is how this works, since you fucked up and admitted you had a drug charge and I continually throw it up in your face, you are weakly trying to call me a drunk. Here is the thing skippy pot head, I dont drink. Now you are saying I am a handout taking government leaching person..if by handout you mean getting a retirement check monthly because I did 20 years in the Navy...then yes, I am. Ghetto dwelling? Where I live? Really? ok.

You really really do look dumb here dude, but continue..you self admitted drug charged (and convicted) Ranger.

You fucked up. YOu admitted your drug charge. Deal with it.

It was an infraction, fool....No court martial necessary........I didn't use, sell, or procure.

I let someone smoke in my room, and accepted responsiblity.....Hence, a slap on the wrist.

And, if you're not a fuckin' drunk, then you are obvioulsy one mentally unstable, and bitterly angry man.

I've yet to see a post from you that wasn't some frothing at the mouth display of abject anger and bitterness.......And that goes way back to the ol' MSNBC board.

There's something wrong with you Zona. I seriously hope you get help before you blow an aneurysm straight out your fuckin' ear.

BTW, were ever able to prove that Allen West was forced to retire?.....You made that claim (lied through your teeth) and then fled from that thread without proving it. Why is that, Zona?

Still back to that. You say you are in righty? Well, have you ever seen an officer who was in charge of a division, command or whatever...then lose his command, then given the choice of a court martial or deal with being hit with two rather large infringements on the ucmj, one being assault..then "SUDDENLY"retiring..yet not being disgraced?

Allen West was told to give 5k in fines and then shown the door. Prove me wrong. I didnt leave that thread without showing you how much an idiot you are.

Prove me wrong, he LOST HIS FUCKING COMMAND and then "retired" after being fined and found guilty of assault. He is a disgrace.

You are always wrong...always...I am not angry, this is fun to me. It really is. You said I am old once...you do realize I retired in 04. This makes me old? Really? I am old at 47 and a drunk? I laugh everytime you say this since I dont drink. You are ALWAYS wrong dude. You say I am taking from the government, yet I get a retirement check for my 20 years. You say I am in the ghetto, yet I have a home with a pool. My neighborhood is a ghetto? LOLOLOLOL

YOU ARE ALWAYS WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING. Well, except when you said you have a drug charge on your record. So who do we believe, me or a druggie you?

 

[Steelplate]

Because I dont want to sit next to a smoker when I eat? Seriously, you took my position on this to come up with a synopsis of me?

This says a lot about you really. I dont want to sit next to a person blowing his nasty cigarette smoke in my face. If that makes me a horrible person, then so be it.

Get it now?

I don't blame you for not wanting to sit next to a smoker and having smoke blown in your face. Go to non-smoking restaurants/bars. Stay away from establishments that choose to have smoking.

Simple, isn't it.

But you don't want simple, do you? You want to dictate and have others conform.

 

[Zona]

Because I dont want to sit next to a smoker when I eat? Seriously, you took my position on this to come up with a synopsis of me?

This says a lot about you really. I dont want to sit next to a person blowing his nasty cigarette smoke in my face. If that makes me a horrible person, then so be it.

Get it now?

I don't blame you for not wanting to sit next to a smoker and having smoke blown in your face. Go to non-smoking restaurants/bars. Stay away from establishments that choose to have smoking.

Simple, isn't it.

But you don't want simple, do you? You want to dictate and have others conform.

Smoke Free Arizona


It look slike my entire state feels like I do. No fucking smoking anywhere in public here. I love it. I really do. This state says smoking in front of non smokers is disgusting and will not allow it. The military says the same thing. AGain, they feel the same way I do.

Arizona: are they infringing on smokers "rights"?

In November of 2006 the citizens of Arizona made their voices heard by passing the Smoke-Free Arizona Act A.R.S. §36-601.01. This landmark statute prohibits smoking in most enclosed public places and places of employment including (but not limited to):




Restaurants, bars, grocery stores, or any establishment that serves food
Office buildings and work areas such as meeting rooms, employee lounges, classrooms, and private offices
Health care facilities, hospitals, health care clinics, and doctor’s offices
Company-owned or employer-owned vehicles during working hours if the vehicle is occupied by more than one person
Enclosed common areas in hotels and motels
Lobbies, elevators, restrooms, reception areas, halls, stairways, and any other enclosed common-use areas in public and private buildings including condominiums and other multiple-unit residential facilities
Any place of employment not exempted. Click here to view exemptions.
Tribes are Sovereign Nations. The Smoke-Free Arizona Act has no application on Indian reservations as defined in A.R.S. §42-3301 (2).


Honest to God I wish this country would pass the same type laws they have in the military when it pertains to smoking.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Because I dont want to sit next to a smoker when I eat? Seriously, you took my position on this to come up with a synopsis of me?

This says a lot about you really. I dont want to sit next to a person blowing his nasty cigarette smoke in my face. If that makes me a horrible person, then so be it.

Get it now?

I don't blame you for not wanting to sit next to a smoker and having smoke blown in your face. Go to non-smoking restaurants/bars. Stay away from establishments that choose to have smoking.

Simple, isn't it.

But you don't want simple, do you? You want to dictate and have others conform.

Smoke Free Arizona


It look slike my entire state feels like I do. No fucking smoking anywhere in public here. I love it. I really do. This state says smoking in front of non smokers is disgusting and will not allow it. The military says the same thing. AGain, they feel the same way I do.

Arizona: are they infringing on smokers "rights"?

In November of 2006 the citizens of Arizona made their voices heard by passing the Smoke-Free Arizona Act A.R.S. §36-601.01. This landmark statute prohibits smoking in most enclosed public places and places of employment including (but not limited to):




Restaurants, bars, grocery stores, or any establishment that serves food
Office buildings and work areas such as meeting rooms, employee lounges, classrooms, and private offices
Health care facilities, hospitals, health care clinics, and doctor’s offices
Company-owned or employer-owned vehicles during working hours if the vehicle is occupied by more than one person
Enclosed common areas in hotels and motels
Lobbies, elevators, restrooms, reception areas, halls, stairways, and any other enclosed common-use areas in public and private buildings including condominiums and other multiple-unit residential facilities
Any place of employment not exempted. Click here to view exemptions.
Tribes are Sovereign Nations. The Smoke-Free Arizona Act has no application on Indian reservations as defined in A.R.S. §42-3301 (2).


Honest to God I wish this country would pass the same type laws they have in the military when it pertains to smoking.

Yeah, and i'm sure you would love to see us establish a Red Square also.

You're such a loyal lil' commie!

 

[Ame®icano]

Obama packs the pockets of his rich friends with our tax money.

How is that Marxist?

Obama is a big Government Wealth Redistribution Marxist.
Hear Obama in his own Marxist words: YouTube - Obama Bombshell Redistribution of Wealth Audio Uncovered

Something like this...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnLp6V1HDW0&NR=1]YouTube - Neely on Redistribution of Grades[/ame]

 

[NYcarbineer]

Establishment conservatives hate Ron Paul. Period.

 

[American Cowboy]

Because I dont want to sit next to a smoker when I eat? Seriously, you took my position on this to come up with a synopsis of me?

This says a lot about you really. I dont want to sit next to a person blowing his nasty cigarette smoke in my face. If that makes me a horrible person, then so be it.

Get it now?

I don't blame you for not wanting to sit next to a smoker and having smoke blown in your face. Go to non-smoking restaurants/bars. Stay away from establishments that choose to have smoking.

Simple, isn't it.

But you don't want simple, do you? You want to dictate and have others conform.

Smoke Free Arizona


It look slike my entire state feels like I do. No fucking smoking anywhere in public here. I love it. I really do. This state says smoking in front of non smokers is disgusting and will not allow it. The military says the same thing. AGain, they feel the same way I do.

Arizona: are they infringing on smokers "rights"?

In November of 2006 the citizens of Arizona made their voices heard by passing the Smoke-Free Arizona Act A.R.S. §36-601.01. This landmark statute prohibits smoking in most enclosed public places and places of employment including (but not limited to):




Restaurants, bars, grocery stores, or any establishment that serves food
Office buildings and work areas such as meeting rooms, employee lounges, classrooms, and private offices
Health care facilities, hospitals, health care clinics, and doctor’s offices
Company-owned or employer-owned vehicles during working hours if the vehicle is occupied by more than one person
Enclosed common areas in hotels and motels
Lobbies, elevators, restrooms, reception areas, halls, stairways, and any other enclosed common-use areas in public and private buildings including condominiums and other multiple-unit residential facilities
Any place of employment not exempted. Click here to view exemptions.
Tribes are Sovereign Nations. The Smoke-Free Arizona Act has no application on Indian reservations as defined in A.R.S. §42-3301 (2).


Honest to God I wish this country would pass the same type laws they have in the military when it pertains to smoking.

Interesting, I was in an upscale part of Scottsdale in Dec of 2010 playing some golf. I had a very nice meal. After my meal I enjoyed a fine cigar and a 18 year scotch. Does that law only apply to the ghetto? Please advise Gestapo Zona. You guys have a great cigar shop there called Cigar King. One of the best. I dropped around $1,200 on cigars while I was there. I sure am glad every town in AZ does not have a Gestapo Zona, most towns are Nazi free zones. The liberal cities all over regulate though. No freedom in the lib towns.

 

[percysunshine]

Who is Ron Paul?

 

[Wicked Jester]

Who is Ron Paul?

Short, nutty, "My Favorite Martian" lookin' dude, sans the antennas.

 

[BenNatuf]

Obama packs the pockets of his rich friends with our tax money.

How is that Marxist?

People who can afford socialism love it. I agree however that Obama is more of an evolutionary progressive than a revolutionary one. Like other's of his ilk he will use whatever authoritarian policy serves the cause, be it fascist policy, socialist policy, or straight up oligarchic authoritarianism.

Obama is a corporate stooge. This seems to run counter to Marxism as I understand it.

You are confusing goals with methodologies. I said quite clearly he will use whichever authoritarian philosophy best achieves his goals, be it socialist, fascist or oligarchic.

All you have to do to see elements of all three is look at g'mint motors.

Socialist---transfers a parcel of ownership beyond what they're entitled to in the company from those who rightly own it to the unions, making them the largest stockholder outside of the government.

Fascist---Partners with private corporations (if they're big enough) by assuming government ownership of a sizable enough ammount of the company to be able to influence (strongly) it's direction while leaving the "decisions" up to the scapegoats.

Oligarchic---install a czar to oversee the company in who the real power to direct it is invested despite your claims of not "running the company".

 

[slukasiewski]

Establishment conservatives hate Ron Paul. Period.

Not quite - CarBONER - I personally like the guy.

He simply will not win the nomination, nor the election.

Facts are facts...