With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

[Saigon]

So what sets the US apart from France?
Guns.
There are 10 times the number of guns - and 10 times the number of murders as a result.

This is a lie.

I had thought it was fairly obvious that these were not exact figures - it's a generalisation, genius.

That said, the US gun-related homicide rate actually is TEN TIMES that of Germany. France's rate is a bit higher.

 

[Spoonman]

 

[Spoonman]

So what sets the US apart from France?
Guns.
There are 10 times the number of guns - and 10 times the number of murders as a result.

This is a lie.

I had thought it was fairly obvious that these were not exact figures - it's a generalisation, genius.

That said, the US gun-related homicide rate actually is TEN TIMES that of Germany. France's rate is a bit higher.

i see nothing about gun deaths in your charts

 

[M14 Shooter]

So what sets the US apart from France?
Guns.
There are 10 times the number of guns - and 10 times the number of murders as a result.

This is a lie.

I had thought it was fairly obvious that these were not exact figures - it's a generalisation, genius.

That said, the US gun-related homicide rate actually is TEN TIMES that of Germany. France's rate is a bit higher.

You continue to lie.
You cannot prove that 0.0003% of the guns in Germany are used in gun-related murders.

 

[Saigon]

what does that have to do with gun control though?

It is background information - but it does suggest that, as M14 mentioned, without guns the US figure could very likely be just slightly higher than the EU average.

The goal for the US could be reducing the gun-related homicide rate by about two thirds in ten years. I think that is achieable.

 

[Saigon]

You continue to lie.
You cannot prove that 0.0003% of the guns in Germany are used in gun-related murders.

I am not attempting to prove that, have not commented on that topic, and have no idea why you might think it is relevant here.

I am not very interested in shopping at the red herring market.

 

[Spoonman]

what does that have to do with gun control though?

It is background information - but it does suggest that, as M14 mentioned, without guns the US figure could very likely be just slightly higher than the EU average.

The goal for the US could be reducing the gun-related homicide rate by about two thirds in ten years. I think that is achieable.

without guns it would still be more than slightly higher the european average. because guns aren't the issue

 

[M14 Shooter]

You continue to lie.
You cannot prove that 0.0003% of the guns in Germany are used in gun-related murders.

I am not attempting to prove that, have not commented on that topic, and have no idea why you might think it is relevant here.

You argue that more guns = more gun-related murders.
You stated that:

That said, the US gun-related homicide rate actually is TEN TIMES that of Germany.

0.003% of guns in the US are involved in homicides; for your position be be sound, you have to show that 0.0003% of guns in Germany (1/10th the US rate) are involved in homicides.
So, show this to be true or admit that you lied.

I am not very interested in shopping at the red herring market.

Or supporting your statements, or arguing honestly.
As such, you only help to prove that anti-gun loons can only argue from emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty.

 

[Uncensored2008]

without guns it would still be more than slightly higher the european average. because guns aren't the issue

The left cannot grasp causation.

A study found that every driver involved in a traffic fatality in 2011 had at some point picked their nose.

This led some of the left to conclude that nose picking causes traffic deaths.

 

[Spoonman]

You continue to lie.
You cannot prove that 0.0003% of the guns in Germany are used in gun-related murders.

I am not attempting to prove that, have not commented on that topic, and have no idea why you might think it is relevant here.

You argue that more guns = more gun-related murders.
You stated that:

That said, the US gun-related homicide rate actually is TEN TIMES that of Germany.

0.003% of guns in the US are involved in homicides; for your position be be sound, you have to show that 0.0003% of guns in Germany (1/10th the US rate) are involved in homicides.
So, show this to be true or admit that you lied.

I am not very interested in shopping at the red herring market.

Or supporting your statements, or arguing honestly.
As such, you only help to prove that anti-gun loons can only argue from emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty.

he can't see that while the number of guns has nearly doubled in the last 15 years, the number of gun deaths has continued to drop. it goes beyond just the rate of murders dropping, that is occuring while the number of guns is increasing. he misses that correlation. if his perspective was right, that the number of guns was relate to the number of gun deaths, the number of gun deaths would be increasing with the number of guns. but just the opposite is happeneing

 

[M14 Shooter]

I am not attempting to prove that, have not commented on that topic, and have no idea why you might think it is relevant here.

You argue that more guns = more gun-related murders.
You stated that:

0.003% of guns in the US are involved in homicides; for your position be be sound, you have to show that 0.0003% of guns in Germany (1/10th the US rate) are involved in homicides.
So, show this to be true or admit that you lied.

I am not very interested in shopping at the red herring market.

Or supporting your statements, or arguing honestly.
As such, you only help to prove that anti-gun loons can only argue from emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty.

he can't see that while the number of guns has nearly doubled in the last 15 years, the number of gun deaths has continued to drop. it goes beyond just the rate of murders dropping, that is occuring while the number of guns is increasing. he misses that correlation. if his perspective was right, that the number of guns was relate to the number of gun deaths, the number of gun deaths would be increasing with the number of guns. but just the opposite is happeneing

They don't care - their mindless, bigoted, partisan anti-gun narritive recognizes neither fact nor reason.
They believe the state should have a monopoly on force, and recognize that this cannot happen so long as the citizenry remains armed.

 

[Spoonman]

You argue that more guns = more gun-related murders.
You stated that:

0.003% of guns in the US are involved in homicides; for your position be be sound, you have to show that 0.0003% of guns in Germany (1/10th the US rate) are involved in homicides.
So, show this to be true or admit that you lied.


Or supporting your statements, or arguing honestly.
As such, you only help to prove that anti-gun loons can only argue from emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty.

he can't see that while the number of guns has nearly doubled in the last 15 years, the number of gun deaths has continued to drop. it goes beyond just the rate of murders dropping, that is occuring while the number of guns is increasing. he misses that correlation. if his perspective was right, that the number of guns was relate to the number of gun deaths, the number of gun deaths would be increasing with the number of guns. but just the opposite is happeneing

They don't care - their mindless, bigoted, partisan anti-gun narritive recognizes neither fact nor reason.
They believe the state should have a monopoly on force, and recognize that this cannot happen so long as the citizenry remains armed.

which is exactly why james madison wrote the second amendment and why it was ratified. they realized the need to the populace to be as powerful as the central government and to be able to keep it in line. what we have today is exactly what they were trying to prevent.

 

[The Rabbi]

M14 -

If you do not present any facts, there is nothing to ignore. Post something, and I'll look at it.

Meanwhile - how do you feel about this?

The chart shows Spaniards commit more murders than Germans. I guess that doesn't include incidents like WW2 and hte Holocaust, but we'll accept that for what it is.
So what explains this great disparity between Spain and Germany? Is it red wine v. beer?
Because the chart proves fuck-all about anything else.

 

[The Rabbi]

Saigone wants to prove that the US has a higher rate of violent crime because we have looser gun laws. It isn't true. It is demonstrably false and has been shown so many many times. He engages in fallacy after fallacy and refuses to look at actual arguments. The huge rise in the number of guns in circulation over the last 20 years nontheless has resulted in fewer crimes with guns. Thart's comparing apples to apples. The difference in crime rates in Knoxville TN v Memphis TN is comparing apples to apples. The difference between American and France goes way beyond gun laws. That is comparing karajalan paisti to fried pork rinds.

 

[FA_Q2]

FAQ2 -

You make some good points there, and of course I agree that there are a half-dozen major variables in play here - of which drugs, gangs, poverty, urbanisation and possibly immigration are all valid factors.

That is why I see no point comparing the US with Japan, Mexico,Russia or a hundred other countries where those factors are not in play.

However, when we compare the US with Canada, Germany, France and the UK, those factors are in play - to some extent, anyway.

No, they are not, period. You can’t make the round peg of Canada fit into the square USA hole. What third world, lawless nation borders Canada? How is Canada comparable to the USA in drug abuse? What are the major gangs in Canada? What is the population density in Canada? See, nothing is even remotely similar. Canada is no more the USA than Japan is. You know this.

Better yet, Canada has passed gun control laws though. What we can do is compare the homicide rate of Canada before and after those laws passed. That accounts for almost every variable. There are still some out but that is the best that we are going to be able to accomplish. Comparing it to the USA is simply not a scientific way to approach the data. I might as well compare the USA to Mexico. It has a more peaceful northern border and a more impoverished southern border and the population density is far close to us than we are to Canada. We know, though, that is a terrible comparison as Mexico is virtually lawless and not similar to the states at all.

If guns were not a factor in homicide rates, then the total homicide rate in the US might be rouhgly comparable with those countries. After all, France was terrible gangs, drugs, immigrants....try the outskirts of Paris and you'll see what I mean. Not to fotget Marseille!

Correct, it MIGHT be if there were not a thousand other factors involved. France has gang problems? Alright, there is ONE similarity but even being similar is not the same. It is still different. You know what is the same though? The same country before and after those gun laws were passed.

But the fact is that the US sits alone on every chart - it is totally alone.

So what sets the US apart from France?

Guns.

There are 10 times the number of guns - and 10 times the number of murders as a result.

Again, a MILLION things sets us apart from France. Is there gang problem as bad as ours?
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/p...tional-gang-threat-assessment-emerging-trends
Only 15 percent of homicides are not gang related in anyway. What about their border? What third world lawless nation borders France? That’s right, none. This is not even approaching the MAJOR cultural differences.

There is no ‘picking’ nations to compare the US to when talking directly about gun laws. You can’t gage gun law effectiveness by ignoring how it has affected the country in question but trying to compare apples and oranges instead.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?
A Pew study released Tuesday finds that Americans think gun violence has escalated when in reality it's way down from two decades ago. The violence has dropped, meanwhile, even as gun ownership has increased.


Mass shootings, frantic gun-buying, and more Americans legally carrying guns on the street all point to a country fighting a gun violence epidemic, right?

Not necessarily.

As part of a broader trend of declining crime, gun violence in America – while still high relative to other Western countries – has dropped by 49 percent from 1993 to 2011, while nonfatal gun crimes dropped by 69 percent, according to the US Justice Department.

The fear of gun violence isn't why gun sales are up. It's more about the fear that the government will start banning guns.

As a gun shop owner I have a better understanding as to why people buy guns.

 

[M14 Shooter]

With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?
A Pew study released Tuesday finds that Americans think gun violence has escalated when in reality it's way down from two decades ago. The violence has dropped, meanwhile, even as gun ownership has increased.


Mass shootings, frantic gun-buying, and more Americans legally carrying guns on the street all point to a country fighting a gun violence epidemic, right?

Not necessarily.

As part of a broader trend of declining crime, gun violence in America – while still high relative to other Western countries – has dropped by 49 percent from 1993 to 2011, while nonfatal gun crimes dropped by 69 percent, according to the US Justice Department.

The fear of gun violence isn't why gun sales are up. It's more about the fear that the government will start banning guns.

As a gun shop owner I have a better understanding as to why people buy guns.

Than some anti-gun liberal that knows nothing about the subject and will remain anti-gun no matter that data presented to him.
You're full of poop if you believe that - just ask them.

 

[Saigon]

FA Q2 -

All countries are different. One could even say that all countries are unique.

But even so, when we travel from the US to France, England, Germany or Canada, the similarities are overwhelming. They are all major, industrial economies. They have very multi-ethnic, multi-cultural societies. They all have big cities. They are all capitalist. They all share a kind of western, European-based culture.

I do agree that having Mexico as a neighbour means some crime might spill across the border. But surely the same is true of France, which has more than a million immigrants from three countries it fought wars in within the last 50 years? Germany has around four million Muslims, as has France, as has England.

What this means is that we are best to compare not 2 countries, but 8 or 10 that allow us to filter out local factors, as the chart below does. We can also accept that no two countries will ever be equal, because of local factors.

One also has to consider that while Canada has less gangs and less drugs than the US does - guns may also be a major reason for that. Guns enable gangs to establish control over an area and the people in it. Take away the guns, and gangs will not have the same power they do today.

I know every pro-gun poster wants to ignore the statistics, but ultimately that is where the reality of this topic is:

 

[Saigon]

You know what is the same though? The same country before and after those gun laws were passed.

Yes, that is true.

And we know that the UK now has its lowest total homicide rate since 1983.

"The number of murders and killings in England and Wales has fallen to the lowest level in nearly 30 years, Office for National Statistics figures show.

Police recorded 550 homicides in 2011-12, 88 fewer than the previous year and the lowest number since 1983.

Offences such as pickpocketing, shoplifting and bicycle theft rose 2%, the only crime category to show a rise."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

 

[FA_Q2]

FA Q2 -

All countries are different. One could even say that all countries are unique.

But even so, when we travel from the US to France, England, Germany or Canada, the similarities are overwhelming. They are all major, industrial economies. They have very multi-ethnic, multi-cultural societies. They all have big cities. They are all capitalist. They all share a kind of western, European-based culture.

I do agree that having Mexico as a neighbour means some crime might spill across the border. But surely the same is true of France, which has more than a million immigrants from three countries it fought wars in within the last 50 years? Germany has around four million Muslims, as has France, as has England.

What this means is that we are best to compare not 2 countries, but 8 or 10 that allow us to filter out local factors, as the chart below does. We can also accept that no two countries will ever be equal, because of local factors.

One also has to consider that while Canada has less gangs and less drugs than the US does - guns may also be a major reason for that. Guns enable gangs to establish control over an area and the people in it. Take away the guns, and gangs will not have the same power they do today.

I know every pro-gun poster wants to ignore the statistics, but ultimately that is where the reality of this topic is:

The similarities are fewer than the differences by the way. I have been to many of the nations you speak about and they are not simular at all. Germany is as foreign to the US as Mexico. NOTHING is similar there. Even the cities there are not recognizable with the US.

You claim that gun supporters ignore the statistics when we have ignored nothing. Those have been addressed and EVERY statistic that deals with the actual topic, gun law, you are blatantly ignoring while demanding that your cherry picked ‘data’ is taken seriously.

If you are correct, then why have gun laws all across this nation NOT lead to lower homicide rates there? Why did national gun laws NOT lead to lower homicide rates? Why have Canada’s laws not lead to lower homicide rates? Why are you ignoring a 100 years of data in England only to cherry pick the very last law and them making erroneous claims about its effects (somehow lower gun rates lead to higher crime and then they also cause lower crime later). Your arguments are hollow and continuing to DEMAND that comparing US rates to other nations while BLATANTLY IGNORING what those laws do in the countries themselves.

This is going beyond dishonesty Saigon. You are fitting the data around your preconceived notions. The simple FACT that you cannot compare 2 nations’ statistics based on ONE SINGLE METRIC is glaringly simple. There is no way around that whatsoever. You MUST establish causation first and you have failed to do so.