Would you Follow Him and take his mark?

[The Original Tree]

Comfort one another with these words,

"You will endure the 7 Seal Judgments, the 7 Bowls of Wrath Judgments, and the 7 Trumpet Judgments, but don't you worry sonny boy, you are The Bride of Christ and you are not appointed to wrath, and btw, there won't be a wedding supper of The Lamb in Heaven because when Christ Returns, He Returns to Earth to rule."

Tell me, who were all the Saints John saw in Heaven while all these judgments were poured out on Earth?
They are a combination of Dead Saints in History, Raptured Saints, and Tribulation Saints.
When does Christ Establish His Throne on Earth in Jerusalem?
After the Wedding Feast of The Lamb and After The Tribulation.
When does The Millennial Kingdom Begin?
After The Tribulation and After The Wedding Feast of The Lamb in Heaven.


The Bride of Christ is with Christ when The Tribulation is Occurring. The Bride goes where Christ goes. We do not need to be caught up to Him in the air if it is at The End of The Tribulation and He is coming down to Earth to rule from Jerusalem.

 

[surada]

No...
The book of Daniel was originally written by the prophet Daniel during both the Babylonian Empire and the Persian Empire.

Daniel foretold about the Greek and Roman Empire.

There was no scripture written during the Greek Empire. It was called the "Intertestamental period" and was silent except for the book of Maccabees. The Book of Maccabees is not considered to be prophesy or scriptures...it is interesting but it has many facts wrong. It does explain why Judas' name was Judas as Judas Maccabeeus was the leader of the revolt against Antiochus Epiphanies in which later was commemorated by the festival of lights...aka Hannakah.
The part about Antiochus and Judas...ok those dates are sounding correct.

But the Book of Daniel was written several hundred years before those events happened. Just like Isaiah was written 600 years before Cyrus and Daniel read the letter written by Isaiah to Cyrus/Darius when they reached him acting as Viceroy for Belshazzar.

The prophesy written by Daniel is exacting and precise...made predictions that went down to the hour. He went further than Jeremiah...but some were based in part on what Jeremiah has prophesied. (And they weren't 100 years old yet....which is what was required before a scripture or prophesy was accepted)

Prophesy can contain history...but the focus is not history it is prophesy. Nebachadnezzar's exhortation (written in Aramaic) is the only Goyim to write anything in the Old Testament...which is also found in the book of Daniel.

The Book of Daniel passed all 100 tests of scripture and has been accepted as such. Your assertions of "a council writing it" would fail several tests for scripture (same as the book of Maccabees) and would be excluded. (Same as book of Maccabees is excluded)

You are talking about Deutero Isaiah AKA Second Isaiah which was added much later.. specifically verses 40 thru 55.

The Macabbees shouldn't be excluded because it leaves out the whole issue of the first Abomination of Desolation and Antiochus IV persecution and efforts to Hellenize the Jews.

The exclusion of the Books of the Maccabees can be traced to the political rivalry that existed during the late Second Temple Period between the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

 

[JohnDB]

Not really. the only condition is to trust Christ. God Himself does the rest. Pretty neat, huh? the ONLY condition of Salvation is to receive a gift-a present.

Well in today's westernized world that isn't exactly the most precise way to explain it.

"Following" Jesus or believing in what He said and did is not exactly without cost...

It costs your whole life...all that you were, currently are, and everything you will be is now His.
Now there are some benefits to that...so many benefits that by comparison it is what exemplifies the word propitiation.

Which does make it seem free. But there is a very real cost that must be paid. Belief and faith causes action...but in today's westernized culture the culture says it is a very high price (I don't think so either but whatever)
Now this doesn't mean that we have to shave our heads and become monks or priests...but our whole life focus is different than before.

 

[cnm]

Why will no one address YHWH's lack of supremacy the OP referenced?

 

[JohnDB]

You are talking about Deutero Isaiah AKA Second Isaiah which was added much later.. specifically verses 40 thru 55.

The Macabbees shouldn't be excluded because it leaves out the whole issue of the first Abomination of Desolation and Antiochus IV persecution and efforts to Hellenize the Jews.

The exclusion of the Books of the Maccabees can be traced to the political rivalry that existed during the late Second Temple Period between the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

Your assertions are not part of any ancient or modern Mishna, Talmud, Sifre, or Targumim I've ever heard about or read.
It goes against just about everyone.

Daniel is not pseudopigrapha. Never has ever been considered that....ever.

And also goes against what Jesus said himself.

 

[JohnDB]

Why will no one address YHWH's lack of supremacy the OP referenced?

God is Sovereign... always has been and always will be.
Anything else is worshipping a god of your own creation.

 

[surada]

After being forced out of Egypt by Roman forces, Antiochus took out his wrath on the Jews. Daniel 11:31 records, “And forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.“

Antiochus went on a wild campaign of forced Hellenization of the Jews. He wanted to change their culture and make them like the Greeks including the worship of the Greek Gods. He slaughtered those who refused to submit. He stopped the Temple sacrifices to the Lord and then set up a statue of Zeus in the Holy of Holies and sacrificed a pig on the altar. This was the first “abomination that made desolate.”

 

[JohnDB]

After being forced out of Egypt by Roman forces, Antiochus took out his wrath on the Jews. Daniel 11:31 records, “And forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.“

Antiochus went on a wild campaign of forced Hellenization of the Jews. He wanted to change their culture and make them like the Greeks including the worship of the Greek Gods. He slaughtered those who refused to submit. He stopped the Temple sacrifices to the Lord and then set up a statue of Zeus in the Holy of Holies and sacrificed a pig on the altar. This was the first “abomination that made desolate.”

What Antiochus Epiphanies did and when he did it isn't in question...
Repeating it is not needed.

You need to come up with a RELIABLE source that makes a case for going against thousands of historians, archeologist, anthropologists, theologians, and writing experts across a span of 2300 years who disagree with you about the authorship of the book of Daniel.

 

[cnm]

God is Sovereign

Not according to the OP.

 

[surada]

What Antiochus Epiphanies did and when he did it isn't in question...
Repeating it is not needed.

You need to come up with a RELIABLE source that makes a case for going against thousands of historians, archeologist, anthropologists, theologians, and writing experts across a span of 2300 years who disagree with you about the authorship of the book of Daniel.

What Antiochus Epiphanies did and when he did it isn't in question...
Repeating it is not needed.

You need to come up with a RELIABLE source that makes a case for going against thousands of historians, archeologist, anthropologists, theologians, and writing experts across a span of 2300 years who disagree with you about the authorship of the book of Daniel.

So much of Daniel is wrong about names and dates and kings who never existed.

 

[JohnDB]

So much of Daniel is wrong about names and dates and kings who never existed.

Then you cannot claim to be a Christian.
You are a member of another religion.

To us Christians, Jesus is God. His words are LAW. Jesus said that Daniel was a prophet...so guess what?

I'm going to take Jesus' word over yours every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

And since you are a member of another religion, please step out of this thread which is for Christians.
You can have your own thread espousing whatever god it is that you worship...

 

[GMCGeneral]

Actually, His Sovereignty is implied. I was questioning unbelievers of this likely scenario that will happen after the Rapture.

 

[surada]

Then you cannot claim to be a Christian.
You are a member of another religion.

To us Christians, Jesus is God. His words are LAW. Jesus said that Daniel was a prophet...so guess what?

I'm going to take Jesus' word over yours every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

And since you are a member of another religion, please step out of this thread which is for Christians.
You can have your own thread espousing whatever god it is that you worship...

I am a traditional Christian .. before the futurists.

Think about it. Daniel wasn't predicting the Abomination of Desolation, he was describing what happened during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and what followed with the Maccabean war.

Later, Jesus references Daniel saying when you see the Abomination of Desolation as described by Daniel AGAIN, flee Jerusalem to the mountains. That's the context which you wouldn't know if you skip that whole period of history when Antiochus defiled the Temple and made it desolate.

What is the abomination of desolation? | GotQuestions.org

What is the abomination of desolation? Will the antichrist defile the end times Temple in Jerusalem? Didn't Antiochus Epiphanes perform the abomination of desolation in the second century BC?

www.gotquestions.org

In 167 B.C. a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanies set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation.

 

[surada]

Actually, His Sovereignty is implied. I was questioning unbelievers of this likely scenario that will happen after the Rapture.

The "rapture" is just comforting the new Christians who worried about their relatives who had died while waiting for the second coming of Jesus. This is telling the Thessalonians that their loved ones are not lost.

 

[JohnDB]

I am a traditional Christian .. before the futurists.

Think about it. Daniel wasn't predicting the Abomination of Desolation, he was describing what happened during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and what followed with the Maccabean war.

Later, Jesus references Daniel saying when you see the Abomination of Desolation as described by Daniel AGAIN, flee Jerusalem to the mountains. That's the context which you wouldn't know if you skip that whole period of history when Antiochus defiled the Temple and made it desolate.

Nope...
You either believe Jesus or you don't.

If you believe Jesus you are a Christian.
If you don't believe Jesus then you are not a Christian....

It's fairly cut and dry like that.
That's what the term "Christian" literally means. And since you are in direct opposition to what Jesus said...guess what? I don't have to think about anything you have to say on the subject. (Even though it directly contradicts every reliable history book in the known world)

This thread is for Christians which you are claiming NOT to be by refusing to believe what Jesus said.

You can't co-op someone else label to sew dissention... Jesus had specific charges about that sort of thing. But it's also rude by even today's standards.

If you joined a pro-life group and said you were a pro life person but advocated abortion for every reason imaginable and those unimagined... you aren't pro-life.

Same thing applies here. You claim Jesus was a liar...Christians do not. You are not a Christian...it's that simple.

 

[surada]

Nope...
You either believe Jesus or you don't.

If you believe Jesus you are a Christian.
If you don't believe Jesus then you are not a Christian....

It's fairly cut and dry like that.
That's what the term "Christian" literally means. And since you are in direct opposition to what Jesus said...guess what? I don't have to think about anything you have to say on the subject. (Even though it directly contradicts every reliable history book in the known world)

This thread is for Christians which you are claiming NOT to be by refusing to believe what Jesus said.

You can't co-op someone else label to sew dissention... Jesus had specific charges about that sort of thing. But it's also rude by even today's standards.

If you joined a pro-life group and said you were a pro life person but advocated abortion for every reason imaginable and those unimagined... you aren't pro-life.

Same thing applies here. You claim Jesus was a liar...Christians do not. You are not a Christian...it's that simple.

You do not understand what Jesus said. Read it again.
Mark 13:14 So when you see the abomination of desolation ...

Mark 13:14 - The Abomination of Desolation

So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

biblehub.com

King James Bible. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: New King James Version. “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in …

 

[JohnDB]

You do not understand what Jesus said. Read it again.
Mark 13:14 So when you see the abomination of desolation ...

Mark 13:14 - The Abomination of Desolation

So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

biblehub.com

King James Bible. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: New King James Version. “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in …

So you are saying that now the entire New Testament is a fake?
But for some reason you are still trying to claim that you are a Christian?

And in what realm of reasonability are you still making that claim?

You don't believe Jesus
You believe that the Old Testament AND New Testament are Wrong...
Then you claim that all respected Historians and History teachers are wrong as well...

You got issues.

 

[surada]

So you are saying that now the entire New Testament is a fake?
But for some reason you are still trying to claim that you are a Christian?

And in what realm of reasonability are you still making that claim?

You don't believe Jesus
You believe that the Old Testament AND New Testament are Wrong...
Then you claim that all respected Historians and History teachers are wrong as well...

You got issues.

I didn't say the NT was fake, nor the OT.. What church do you attend? I am saying you don't understand what you are reading.

 

[JohnDB]

I didn't say the NT was fake, nor the OT.. What church do you attend? I am saying you don't understand what you are reading.

Oh I understand it better than you obviously...
You are claiming that the Old Testament has been changed and that we are to ignore passages in the New Testament as they have been changed too...

Which is and always has had absolutely nothing to do with being a Christian...period...end of it all.

No Christian cuts, slices and dices the scriptures the way you are doing. You are by default then not a Christian when you do so.

I can even state that the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is understandable....I may not agree with their hermeneutics but I do understand it...it too calls for belief in every word being precious and believed.

If in the centuries past there had been any alterations to scriptures there would have been an all out war with the exact reason being the falsification of scripture.
Just like the war between the Samaritan's and Jews. That one was over one verse being deliberately changed in the Bibles sold to the Samaritans. (The Jews kept unaltered Bibles for themselves)

So either the Bible is accurate or it isn't.... you are either claiming Jesus is a liar or you aren't...
You either are a Christian or you are not...

And by the things you have claimed you are not a Christian.

 

[surada]

Oh I understand it better than you obviously...
You are claiming that the Old Testament has been changed and that we are to ignore passages in the New Testament as they have been changed too...

Which is and always has had absolutely nothing to do with being a Christian...period...end of it all.

No Christian cuts, slices and dices the scriptures the way you are doing. You are by default then not a Christian when you do so.

I can even state that the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is understandable....I may not agree with their hermeneutics but I do understand it...it too calls for belief in every word being precious and believed.

If in the centuries past there had been any alterations to scriptures there would have been an all out war with the exact reason being the falsification of scripture.
Just like the war between the Samaritan's and Jews. That one was over one verse being deliberately changed in the Bibles sold to the Samaritans. (The Jews kept unaltered Bibles for themselves)

So either the Bible is accurate or it isn't.... you are either claiming Jesus is a liar or you aren't...
You either are a Christian or you are not...

And by the things you have claimed you are not a Christian.

I say don't change scripture.. Don't change Isaiah or Hosea.

Don't you think Jesus knew the story of Antiochus and the Maccabean war?

Why do you think I called Jesus a liar?