~Would You Take A Life??~

[syrenn]

I had to post again. Can't help myself.
Wish I could say pleased to meetcha, CONHOG, but I already have via your new nic of TheBrain.
You, mister, as a LIAR. But a leopard can't change it's spots, can it? I was warned, but gave ya the benefit of the doubt until you kept sending me pms doing exactly what was warned you would do. I didn't take your bait very well, did I?

I thank those who were aware. Me being semi new and CONHOG before my time, I wouldn't have known without you. Thank you.

Did you catch that last of his? A liar calling you a liar. A known PM harasser, saying he did not send you PM's. And then whining that talking about PM's is against the rules.

Report his PM's he if he continues to harass you.

He hasn't continued so as long as he stays out of my pm's, we can co exist. (By me not believing a word he says on any thread).

Oh, and conhog/brain? I am not a liar. But you obviously are. Shame on you.

Good to know. He is famous for Pm harassment though, so keep that in mind.

 

[Grace]

Did you catch that last of his? A liar calling you a liar. A known PM harasser, saying he did not send you PM's. And then whining that talking about PM's is against the rules.

Report his PM's he if he continues to harass you.

He hasn't continued so as long as he stays out of my pm's, we can co exist. (By me not believing a word he says on any thread).

Oh, and conhog/brain? I am not a liar. But you obviously are. Shame on you.

Good to know. He is famous for Pm harassment though, so keep that in mind.

So far, he has not contacted me again since the last time a few days ago when I said NO MORE. Long as he sticks to that, I won't run to the mods. I don't like bugging them. And Gunny scares the bejeesus outta me.

 

[syrenn]

He hasn't continued so as long as he stays out of my pm's, we can co exist. (By me not believing a word he says on any thread).

Oh, and conhog/brain? I am not a liar. But you obviously are. Shame on you.

Good to know. He is famous for Pm harassment though, so keep that in mind.

So far, he has not contacted me again since the last time a few days ago when I said NO MORE. Long as he sticks to that, I won't run to the mods. I don't like bugging them. And Gunny scares the bejeesus outta me.

Hopefully he can stick to the NO MORE CONTACT thing. He had serious problems with that one in his... LMAO... last incarnation. When he could not contact he started his abuse and harassment in the rep comments. But time will tell.

and the bit about Gunny.....

 

[Grace]

I kid you not. When I see Gunny here, I'm all and bail to fluff places.

 

[Intense]

Just as a Reminder. PM's or Their Content are not to be addressed on the Open Boards. PM Format Only.

 

[Grace]

I am not alone either.

This be me
This be Dabs

We grab hands and run.

 

[Grace]

Just as a Reminder. PM's or Their Content are not to be addressed on the Open Boards. PM Format Only.

Pinky swear. Starting now.

 

[Intense]

I kid you not. When I see Gunny here, I'm all and bail to fluff places.

So let me get this straight, if we want fried chicken and eggs, we just need to show up with Gunny?

 

[Grace]

I kid you not. When I see Gunny here, I'm all and bail to fluff places.

So let me get this straight, if we want fried chicken and eggs, we just need to show up with Gunny?

I want some fried chicken and eggs!!!!
Besides, Gunny usually shows up to Ax (ream) someone and he's grumpy. That avi of his means business and I don't wanna be in the line of fire.

 

[The Gadfly]

We were having a good, serious discussion here, before this dissolved into personal bickering. Let's see if we can get back to that topic, because it's a good and interesting one, and worth some real discussion.

 

[syrenn]

We were having a good, serious discussion here, before this dissolved into personal bickering. Let's see if we can get back to that topic, because it's a good and interesting one, and worth some real discussion.

yes it was. My answer remains the same.

Yes i could take a life. Yes i could kill someone.

 

[TheBrain]

We were having a good, serious discussion here, before this dissolved into personal bickering. Let's see if we can get back to that topic, because it's a good and interesting one, and worth some real discussion.

99.9% of untrained citizens would hesitate and get themselves killed , alot of times in situations in which they wouldn't have been killed had they not had a weapon. The facts are clear and this is why I advocate MUCH stronger standards for CC permits. We need to make sure that people who are carrying weapons are damn sure willing to use it IF they ever do pull it on someone.

 

[Grace]

I stand by my answer as well.

 

[Anachronism]

First, NO ONE knows for sure whether he/she can kill, until put in a situation where the decision has to be made. I've seen well-trained soldiers freeze on the trigger.

Second, KILLING IS NOT A GAME! It is not a macho posturing contest, either! War, or a self-defense situation, is not a videogame or a movie. The blood, the feelings, all of it is very very real, and there are no second chances. You cannot undo anything. Those of you who have not had the experience, know this:the first time you pull the trigger on a human target, or slit a human throat, or stick a bayonet in a human being's gut and twist it, YOU WILL BE CHANGED, PERMANENTLY. You may or may not lose any sleep over it, but you WILL carry those changed emotions with you, for the rest of your life, and you WILL carry the memories of it with you for the rest of your life.

You may do it because duty demands it, you may do it for self-preservation, you may do it to protect those around you; but no matter how well-justified you are, legally and morally, you will have to come to terms with what you have done. The act itself is easy, physically; the rest, is the hard part. Everyone who has to do it comes to his/her own way of dealing with it, some more easily than others. It may well save your life, or the lives of others, but it will cost you a little piece of your own humanity.

When I started carrying a gun a little over a decade ago, I sought out the best information I could find on the mentality and the psychological aspects of this topic. One name kept popping up as the best "answer man" in the business at that time.... Massad Ayoob. Thankfully at that time Mas was living and working in New Hampshire and I had the pleasure of shooting with him competitively a couple times a year. Every time we met up I picked a little more of his brain on the topic. He also suggested several other resources in terms of books and articles on the topic. For about 9 months it was pretty much all I read.

Of course nobody knows exactly how they will react in that moment. However, having thought about it ahead of time, having prepared and practiced the techniques and actions does give one a little better chance of survival. Hopefully I will never have to find out if all those practice draws, all those rounds down-range, and all the mental preparation work. However, I am fairly certain of how I would react. Mostly because I HAVE had a loaded gun pointed at me in the past and know how I reacted in that instant....

I was working as a range officer at a competitive pistol match when a shooter moving downrange suddenly realized he'd bypassed a target. Instead of backing up, he literally TURNED AROUND 180 degrees (I was about 4 feet behind him). I saw the business end of a .40 cal Glock coming straight towards my chest as he turned. Without even thinking about it, I reached out, grabbed the barrel of the gun over the slide, pushed the muzzle towards the floor, and proceeded to wrench the gun out of the shooter's hands. Once I had control of the gun, I was able to step downrange, past him, unload and clear the firearm and return it to him before telling him in no uncertain terms that he was Disqualified and that we didn't want to see him at a match again, ever.

BTW - Shortly thereafter I invested in a Level IIA bulletproof vest that I now wear while working all matches.

THe way most of us are raised here in America, we have some pretty strong social, cultural and religious inhibitions against killing. It doesn't come naturally to most of us (which is why the military has to train combat troops to overcome those inhibitions). In the terror and extreme stress of combat, most will revert to trained instinct and react accordingly. Others simply never will. Studies the army did after WWII and Korea showed that about 25% of infantrymen in actual combat never fired their weapon. I would guess, based on personal observation, that that percentage was similar in a typical infantry company in Vietnam as well.

Which is why some of us who place much less value on the great majority of human lives have a little easier time believing that we could and would pull that trigger, Gadfly. That number has been around for years and hasn't changed much over time. There have been Civil War muskets found with 5-8 balls rammed down them because the soldier never discharged the weapon and just kept reloading.

There's little time in combat to give much thought to the matter beyond that. Thinking about what one has done and processing that (along with everything else) comes later; it's there that emotions about it often become a complicating factor (if not a direct cause) of PTSD, just as it does in civilian situations

If you stop to think in those situations it's generally over before your conscious mind can process what's happening. That's why training, both physical and mental is so important.

 

[TheBrain]

First, NO ONE knows for sure whether he/she can kill, until put in a situation where the decision has to be made. I've seen well-trained soldiers freeze on the trigger.

Second, KILLING IS NOT A GAME! It is not a macho posturing contest, either! War, or a self-defense situation, is not a videogame or a movie. The blood, the feelings, all of it is very very real, and there are no second chances. You cannot undo anything. Those of you who have not had the experience, know this:the first time you pull the trigger on a human target, or slit a human throat, or stick a bayonet in a human being's gut and twist it, YOU WILL BE CHANGED, PERMANENTLY. You may or may not lose any sleep over it, but you WILL carry those changed emotions with you, for the rest of your life, and you WILL carry the memories of it with you for the rest of your life.

You may do it because duty demands it, you may do it for self-preservation, you may do it to protect those around you; but no matter how well-justified you are, legally and morally, you will have to come to terms with what you have done. The act itself is easy, physically; the rest, is the hard part. Everyone who has to do it comes to his/her own way of dealing with it, some more easily than others. It may well save your life, or the lives of others, but it will cost you a little piece of your own humanity.

When I started carrying a gun a little over a decade ago, I sought out the best information I could find on the mentality and the psychological aspects of this topic. One name kept popping up as the best "answer man" in the business at that time.... Massad Ayoob. Thankfully at that time Mas was living and working in New Hampshire and I had the pleasure of shooting with him competitively a couple times a year. Every time we met up I picked a little more of his brain on the topic. He also suggested several other resources in terms of books and articles on the topic. For about 9 months it was pretty much all I read.

Of course nobody knows exactly how they will react in that moment. However, having thought about it ahead of time, having prepared and practiced the techniques and actions does give one a little better chance of survival. Hopefully I will never have to find out if all those practice draws, all those rounds down-range, and all the mental preparation work. However, I am fairly certain of how I would react. Mostly because I HAVE had a loaded gun pointed at me in the past and know how I reacted in that instant....

I was working as a range officer at a competitive pistol match when a shooter moving downrange suddenly realized he'd bypassed a target. Instead of backing up, he literally TURNED AROUND 180 degrees (I was about 4 feet behind him). I saw the business end of a .40 cal Glock coming straight towards my chest as he turned. Without even thinking about it, I reached out, grabbed the barrel of the gun over the slide, pushed the muzzle towards the floor, and proceeded to wrench the gun out of the shooter's hands. Once I had control of the gun, I was able to step downrange, past him, unload and clear the firearm and return it to him before telling him in no uncertain terms that he was Disqualified and that we didn't want to see him at a match again, ever.

BTW - Shortly thereafter I invested in a Level IIA bulletproof vest that I now wear while working all matches.

THe way most of us are raised here in America, we have some pretty strong social, cultural and religious inhibitions against killing. It doesn't come naturally to most of us (which is why the military has to train combat troops to overcome those inhibitions). In the terror and extreme stress of combat, most will revert to trained instinct and react accordingly. Others simply never will. Studies the army did after WWII and Korea showed that about 25% of infantrymen in actual combat never fired their weapon. I would guess, based on personal observation, that that percentage was similar in a typical infantry company in Vietnam as well.

Which is why some of us who place much less value on the great majority of human lives have a little easier time believing that we could and would pull that trigger, Gadfly. That number has been around for years and hasn't changed much over time. There have been Civil War muskets found with 5-8 balls rammed down them because the soldier never discharged the weapon and just kept reloading.

There's little time in combat to give much thought to the matter beyond that. Thinking about what one has done and processing that (along with everything else) comes later; it's there that emotions about it often become a complicating factor (if not a direct cause) of PTSD, just as it does in civilian situations

If you stop to think in those situations it's generally over before your conscious mind can process what's happening. That's why training, both physical and mental is so important.

Thank you for agreeing that only a sociopath or a trained person could say without doubt that they could pull the trigger.

 

[Wicked Jester]

My nephew is safer with me then with his own mother. She would not kill under any circumstances ...even it was to kill someone who was killing her own child.

Had a similar run-in with a friend of mine about five years ago. She walked into her apartment just after it had been burglarized. She said she could still feel his "presence" in the apartment when she walked in. The cops figured he may have been going out the back door as she came in the front.

She called me up and asked what was necessary to get a gun permit. I told her that I didn't think she should get one. We got into a long arguement about it. I told her to come over on Saturday and I'd explain why.

When she got there, I took my .38spl revolver, unloaded it, handed it to her and walked across the apartment (about 30 feet away). I then told her to point the gun at me and pull the trigger. She refused, telling me it broke every bit of gun safety I'd ever taught her. I instigated an arguement with her over it. As I did so, I slowly closed the distance between myself and her. I called her every name in the book that a man should never call a woman. She still refused to point the empty gun at me and pull the trigger. Finally I reached arms length away from her. I grabbed the gun out of her hand, placed it near her head and pulled the trigger. She went ballistic. She slapped me hard enough to knock me off my feet.

I looked up from the floor and said "Nice shot. Too bad you're already DEAD. THAT is why you can't own a gun. You couldn't point a knowingly EMPTY revolver at me and pull the trigger, how the hell do you think you'd be able to actually SHOOT someone. What I just did to you is exactly what would happen, except that you'd never hear the BANG that replaced that 'click'."

She was furious with me for about three weeks. Then we got back together and found someone to properly secure her apartment. We also got her the permit for pepper spray and the proper training to use it.

Just what the hell were you thinking?

That's about the dumbest way to make a fucking point......Seriously!

 

[TheBrain]

My nephew is safer with me then with his own mother. She would not kill under any circumstances ...even it was to kill someone who was killing her own child.

Had a similar run-in with a friend of mine about five years ago. She walked into her apartment just after it had been burglarized. She said she could still feel his "presence" in the apartment when she walked in. The cops figured he may have been going out the back door as she came in the front.

She called me up and asked what was necessary to get a gun permit. I told her that I didn't think she should get one. We got into a long arguement about it. I told her to come over on Saturday and I'd explain why.

When she got there, I took my .38spl revolver, unloaded it, handed it to her and walked across the apartment (about 30 feet away). I then told her to point the gun at me and pull the trigger. She refused, telling me it broke every bit of gun safety I'd ever taught her. I instigated an arguement with her over it. As I did so, I slowly closed the distance between myself and her. I called her every name in the book that a man should never call a woman. She still refused to point the empty gun at me and pull the trigger. Finally I reached arms length away from her. I grabbed the gun out of her hand, placed it near her head and pulled the trigger. She went ballistic. She slapped me hard enough to knock me off my feet.

I looked up from the floor and said "Nice shot. Too bad you're already DEAD. THAT is why you can't own a gun. You couldn't point a knowingly EMPTY revolver at me and pull the trigger, how the hell do you think you'd be able to actually SHOOT someone. What I just did to you is exactly what would happen, except that you'd never hear the BANG that replaced that 'click'."

She was furious with me for about three weeks. Then we got back together and found someone to properly secure her apartment. We also got her the permit for pepper spray and the proper training to use it.

Just what the hell were you thinking?

That's about the dumbest way to make a fucking point......Seriously!

some people be dumb.

others be stupid and claim that 'oh no problem I'd kill someone" I spent long enough in the game to know when someone can and someone can't. I rarely carry even though I can and my wife certainly doesn't have a CC permit, she does however carrry non lethal pepper spray because I KNOW she could use that.

 

[Anachronism]

Thank you for agreeing that only a sociopath or a trained person could say without doubt that they could pull the trigger.

I don't think I've ever said anything to the contrary, Brain. In fact, until you've had to do it, nobody can be 100% certain how they'll react. I honestly hope to never find out for certain; though I do plan to be as ready as I can if that instance occurs.

Just what the hell were you thinking?

That's about the dumbest way to make a fucking point......Seriously!

It was going to be the quickest, easiest, and most immediately effective method of PROVING to her that she should not own a gun. Especially not for self-defense. In the course of 5 minutes I stopped what would have been a multiple day arguement with the irrefutable proof that even she couldn't deny.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Thank you for agreeing that only a sociopath or a trained person could say without doubt that they could pull the trigger.

I don't think I've ever said anything to the contrary, Brain. In fact, until you've had to do it, nobody can be 100% certain how they'll react. I honestly hope to never find out for certain; though I do plan to be as ready as I can if that instance occurs.

Just what the hell were you thinking?

That's about the dumbest way to make a fucking point......Seriously!

It was going to be the quickest, easiest, and most immediately effective method of PROVING to her that she should not own a gun. Especially not for self-defense. In the course of 5 minutes I stopped what would have been a multiple day arguement with the irrefutable proof that even she couldn't deny.

You could have also blown her head off. Given her a heart attack or stroke.

Look man, I've been thoroughly trained on many weapons. Qualified expert on all.......Even so, the most informed and well trained can make mistakes. There is no reason whatsoever to point a gun at somebody's head, unless you plan on actually using it.....Making a point in that manner is one of the most irresponsible things i've ever heard of.

All you had to do was take her to a range and actually fire the weapon. That would have been the best way for her to determine whether or not she would be willing.

 

[TheBrain]

Thank you for agreeing that only a sociopath or a trained person could say without doubt that they could pull the trigger.

I don't think I've ever said anything to the contrary, Brain. In fact, until you've had to do it, nobody can be 100% certain how they'll react. I honestly hope to never find out for certain; though I do plan to be as ready as I can if that instance occurs.

I was just thanking you for agreeing in light of the fact that OTHERS in the thread have acted like shooting another person would be no problem at all.