2020 and the National Debt

[sparky]

A large portion of the debt is owed to China. That is not a bad thing. They cannot afford to see the US destroyed because we owe them so much money.

If the US Debt bubble sinks the US dollar, and the Yuan becomes the global currency, how much would that be worth to China?

If that did happen, China would lose a lot of money on the US debt. Plus, many of the Chinese billionaires are heavily invested in the US. One benefit of global markets is countries have vested interests in other countries doing well.
When China becomes the largest consuming market place in the world it will provide great opportunity for US companies. Isolationism is short sighted.

Naivete is short-sighted, not isolationism. Maybe you should listen to the Joint Chief's warnings. You apparently are a globalist only worried about the billionaires wealth. That was the last few decades' US policy, move jobs and factories to China. When the wolf is at the door, don't come crying to the middle-class to protect your wealth.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

whacked out paranoia. Fear drives people to isolate themselves. Fear drives countries to isolate themselves. only thing you have to fear is fear its self.
The answer is to work to solve what you fear not to let fear force you to withdraw. It takes strength to not let fear overwhelm you.

You can't have read this article to post that nonsense. Here it is again and read all of it this time. Its not very long. The US and the rest of the world are "rules-based" China is not, if we keep letting them get away with IP theft they will dominate. The article seems to support Trump's "enforced rules-based" competition.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

So China's military aspirations are economically motivated

where would they have gotten such an idea???

~S~

 

[JoeB131]

I've heard a little talk around here from time to time about the National Debt with each side blaming the other side for the size of it. I just checked the amount of the debt, and it's going up a million dollars in the time that I was there, and considering that was a few minutes ago. The National Debt as of 12/29/2019 is $23,160,651,000,000.00 as of CST 8:44 pm.

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

How important do you think the National Debt is going to be in the election of 2020? Is that too much money right now? Please add your thoughts below. Voting on this poll ends in 45 days. Thank you.

Not very, because it never is.

There's an easy two step program for getting rid of the debt.

1) Slash government spending
2) Increase taxes.

We don't want to do that. Not in any meaningful way. Borrowing is the path of least resistance, that's why we do it.

 

[beautress]

I've heard a little talk around here from time to time about the National Debt with each side blaming the other side for the size of it. I just checked the amount of the debt, and it's going up a million dollars in the time that I was there, and considering that was a few minutes ago. The National Debt as of 12/29/2019 is $23,160,651,000,000.00 as of CST 8:44 pm.

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

How important do you think the National Debt is going to be in the election of 2020? Is that too much money right now? Please add your thoughts below. Voting on this poll ends in 45 days. Thank you.

Not very, because it never is.

There's an easy two step program for getting rid of the debt.

1) Slash government spending
2) Increase taxes.

We don't want to do that. Not in any meaningful way. Borrowing is the path of least resistance, that's why we do it.

Yipes. Going with a budget is something Democrats just don't cotton to. Where there's pots of money, there's lots of people chasing the rainbow.

Sorry Charlie, yer tuna's not good enough. So we're puttin' you back in the water. <giggle>

 

[beautress]

Interesting if not enlightening 'debt' replies here.

It dawns on me that we live our entire existence within a system w/out realizing how it works.... how it affects us....how self destructive it can be....

maybe this is why the ancients were down on usury ?

~S~

Well, the founders were, and they declared there would be no income taxes on the common man. That went out in 1914 and WWI to pay the national debt and send our boys over there. We also sacrificed over a hundred thousand Americans to combat for protecting American interests and allies.

"116,708 American military personnel died during World War 1 from all causes (influenza, combat and wounds)." How Many Americans Died in WW1? - History

 

[sparky]

well there's more history to that beautress....

Tax Day and the Founders - Journal of the American Revolution

but overall, methinks the FF's would be quite taken by modern taxation

~S~

 

[NightFox]

To pay for deficit spending the Treasury borrows currency by issuing a bond. A bond is an IOU. It's a piece of paper with numbers printed on it that says loan me a trillion dollars today and I promise that over a ten year period I will pay you back that trillion dollars. Plus interest.

But...Treasury bonds happen to be our national debt. The Treasury then holds a bond auction. And the world's largest banks show up and compete to buy part of our national debt and make a profit on it by earning interest.

Through a shell game called open market operations, the banks get to sell some of those bonds to the Federal Reserve, at a profit. How does the Federal Reserve pay the bonds? The Federal Reserve opens its 'checkbook' and writes bad, bogus, counterfeit checks that should bounce because they're drawn on an account that always has nothing in it. Here the Federal Reserve is committing fraud.

To steal a quote from the Boston Federal Reserve's ''Putting it Simply", they say that ''When you or I write a check, there must be sufficient funds in our account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check, there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money.”

Then we pay tax to the IRS who then turns it over to theTreasury so the Treasury can pay the principal plus the interest on those bonds that were purchased from banks by the Federal Reserve with a check that was drawn on an account that had nothing in it.

Of course, the Federal Reserve is not Federal. It has stock holders. There is no federal agency that has stock holders. Now, what is a stock holder? A share of stock represents a share of ownership in a corporation. So, the stock holders are the owners of the corporation. Therefore, the Federal Reserve is a private corporation with owners. For reference, you may check their site. It specifically states that the stock holders receive an annual dividend of not more than 6%. Now, we know that the stock in the Federal Reserve was originally issued to the largest banks in the United States. With mergers and acquisitions through the years, you can't actually trace who owns the stock in the Federal Reserve. That's a very closely guarded secret. The best guess would be that they are those primary dealers. The banks that get to make a profit by selling part of our national debt, those bonds, to the Federal Reserve who buys them with a check that is drawn from an account with nothing in it. Then we pay tax to pay the principal and the interest on those bonds so that the Federal Reserve can pay the banks not more than a 6% dividend. This is purposely complex.

You left out some very important facts which I invariably see people who hate the Fed make, which tells me you are all listening to the same manufacturer of bullshit.

First, the money which the Fed created to buy Treasury bonds is destroyed when the Treasury pays back the money for those bonds. So that is zeroed out. It is quite deliberate that this fact is never mentioned by End the Fed propagandists, only the money creation part is.

Second, the interest payments the Fed receives on the bonds is returned to the Treasury. So that, too, is zeroed out.

Uh-huh, that's great except for the fact that the debt is continuously rolled over and increased because the Federal Government needs to borrow in order to cover not only it's ever increasing operating deficit but also to cover debt service costs for outstanding debt, so the reality is that there is no "zeroing out" net effect.

And while yes the Federal Reserve does indeed rebate any interest earned on Treasury debt back to the Treasury, everybody else that buys those bonds and earns interest on them DOESN'T so it's not "zeroed" and it ends up as net increase in the money supply requiring the Fed to intensify OMO and other money supply manipulation efforts to stabilize the value of the currency.

Our currency is based on debt a fact that is never mentioned by Federal Reserve Fiat Currency Apologists.

The discussion was about what the Fed does and what happens to the money it creates and destroys, and the interest it receives and gives back.

My "zero out" statements, in that context, are one hundred percent accurate.

... and as I explained completely irrelevant to what really happens with respect to the relationship of the modern system of public debt monetization and the money supply.

There is no net "zero out", there is only the age old practice of currency debasement to finance public expenditures without the political risk of raising taxes dressed up in a new set of clothes.

On the bright side; we don't have to go through all the bother of replacing silver with base metals in our currency like the Imperial Romans did.

Fox you are clueless as to zeroing out. Your post is proof.

LOL, if you say so ....

I guess inflationary effects are just a mirage then.

There are other possible dangers however.

Yeah you keep claiming that, apparently the specifics are a mystery only you and the voices in your head are in on.

Thanks for the laughs.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

We'll just print more. Its all good.

 

[Mac1958]

We'll just print more. Its all good.

That appears to be the plan.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Hi class: this is how money is made.

U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing - How Money is Made - Intaglio Printing

Next week, we'll teach you which printing press stock to invest in.

 

[NightFox]

Hi class: this is how money is made.

U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing - How Money is Made - Intaglio Printing

Next week, we'll teach you which printing press stock to invest in.

That explains how physical currency is printed not how MONEY is made.

Physical currency is only a small fraction of the total USD in circulation; for the most part dollars are lent into existence using a keyboard not a printing press.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Hi class: this is how money is made.

U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing - How Money is Made - Intaglio Printing

Next week, we'll teach you which printing press stock to invest in.

That explains how physical currency is printed not how MONEY is made.

Physical currency is only a small fraction of the total USD in circulation; for the most part dollars are lent into existence using a keyboard not a printing press.

I know, it was for illustrative purposes on how screwed we are.

 

[YoursTruly]

He pushed for a flat tax. People thought that would make their taxes go up, and that the poor would be worse off than ever. So that ended that. I'm not saying it's true or false, It's just what I observed in people's behavior. I liked Steve Forbes.

I never bought into any of the tax schemes. Anything that's revenue neutral to the government, is still just revenue neutral to the government. Like these Trump tax cuts. Trump brags about how much more taxes are coming into the government, and I'm thinking taxes weren't really slashed.

I know I paid in more last year than I have in the last few years. I think it was because the deductions that were abolished. For some reason, when I'd increase my legitimate deductions (parts and supplies) it didn't change the amount I owed. I even tried increasing those deductions up $10,000, and still no change in what I owed. It was weird. I did it online just to check it first. Then took it to my normal tax person. Same results.

 

[YoursTruly]

We'll just print more. Its all good.

LOL.... IIRC, that's almost verbatim what Trump said just after the election.

 

[YoursTruly]

Ha. That's a good point. True wealth is your time. Which we trade away hour by hour, day by day, week by week, year by year, for numbers that somebody printed on pieces of paper and punched into bank computers. We are what gives the 'currency' its value. As it is, the Federal Reserve's collection wing, the IRS, thinks it owns us, owns 100% of the fruits of our labor and believes that it alone sets the terms for which we may keep a certain percentage.

Exactly. We work our lives away for something they can create in just a few minutes. In fact, they can create all we've earned in our entire lives, in just a few minutes.

One thing about this concept that I still haven't figured out is land ownership.

One thing I really like about this concept, is the government losing it's control over us with money and taxes. With no currency, money or debt, they really have no way to control the masses. Since everything that's produced, cars, phones, food, etc etc etc, no longer costs money, and since there would be no money, there's no way the government could tax us.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

We'll just print more. Its all good.

LOL.... IIRC, that's almost verbatim what Trump said just after the election.

Thats what they all say.

 

[ElmerMudd]

Well. If history is an indicator, those who are concerned with the national debt ought to vote for Democrats. It's a no brainier.

I cannot join a party whose propaganda includes abortion and taking dangerous hormone pills that cause cancer to prevent pregnancy. And that's my point of view, whether or not they've improved "the pill." And no, I do not judge those who do because that's God's job, not mine. And that's what I think.

If you are against abortion, you want to create a situation where the fewest number of abortions happen. Outlawing abortion could end up with an increase in the number of abortions.
Abortions have been decreasing at the same level and higher in states that do not have restrictive abortion laws.
I hope you put as much emphasis on helping children in need as you do in outlawing abortions. If you truly love children you do not abandon them once they are born.

My biggest disappointment with trump is that he has not addressed the debt problem but made it worse. For gods sake introduce the penny plan.

If the employment rate continues to rise, the debt will take care of itself, unless the Congress gets reckless with poison pill environmental shams. It's fine if they clean up the trash out in the areas of the ocean that look ugly with floating plastics and worse, they break down, get swallowed by fish and kills them because fish have a different digestive system than mammals. That impacts shoreline fisherman who depends on fish for supper.

Environmental shams? If you love babies, I hope you want them to live in an environment that will not make them sick or worse.
The unemployment is low and the debt is exploding. It is not because of monies being spent on improving the environment. Trump's version of voodoo economics. He decreased the taxes and increased overall spending.

I made 80 quilt tops for infants this year, and finished one yesterday, one this morning, and worked the rest of the day that I wasn't here on making more squares. Our charity women quilt them by machine before taking them to the care center for redistribution to hare-hit children and families. So yes, I do my share of caring for those who have children, but the daddy desserts, leaving the woman to care for the child as best she can.

God bless for that. Unfortunately there are too many children that are not taken care of because of irresponsible, neglective parents. This requires more attention and funding from both the private sector and government.

 

[ElmerMudd]

A large portion of the debt is owed to China. That is not a bad thing. They cannot afford to see the US destroyed because we owe them so much money.

If the US Debt bubble sinks the US dollar, and the Yuan becomes the global currency, how much would that be worth to China?

If that did happen, China would lose a lot of money on the US debt. Plus, many of the Chinese billionaires are heavily invested in the US. One benefit of global markets is countries have vested interests in other countries doing well.
When China becomes the largest consuming market place in the world it will provide great opportunity for US companies. Isolationism is short sighted.

Naivete is short-sighted, not isolationism. Maybe you should listen to the Joint Chief's warnings. You apparently are a globalist only worried about the billionaires wealth. That was the last few decades' US policy, move jobs and factories to China. When the wolf is at the door, don't come crying to the middle-class to protect your wealth.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

whacked out paranoia. Fear drives people to isolate themselves. Fear drives countries to isolate themselves. only thing you have to fear is fear its self.
The answer is to work to solve what you fear not to let fear force you to withdraw. It takes strength to not let fear overwhelm you.

You can't have read this article to post that nonsense. Here it is again and read all of it this time. Its not very long. The US and the rest of the world are "rules-based" China is not, if we keep letting them get away with IP theft they will dominate. The article seems to support Trump's "enforced rules-based" competition.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

I did read the article and it reaffirms everything I said about fear. Facing the China of the future we must be driven by resolve and actions not fear and isolation. The author of the article basically reaffirms that. As we isolate ourselves from the rest of the world, China is becoming stronger in the world by reaching out and helping more countries. They are doing what the US has done in the past to secure allies and increase their world power.

 

[ElmerMudd]

If the US Debt bubble sinks the US dollar, and the Yuan becomes the global currency, how much would that be worth to China?

If that did happen, China would lose a lot of money on the US debt. Plus, many of the Chinese billionaires are heavily invested in the US. One benefit of global markets is countries have vested interests in other countries doing well.
When China becomes the largest consuming market place in the world it will provide great opportunity for US companies. Isolationism is short sighted.

Naivete is short-sighted, not isolationism. Maybe you should listen to the Joint Chief's warnings. You apparently are a globalist only worried about the billionaires wealth. That was the last few decades' US policy, move jobs and factories to China. When the wolf is at the door, don't come crying to the middle-class to protect your wealth.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

whacked out paranoia. Fear drives people to isolate themselves. Fear drives countries to isolate themselves. only thing you have to fear is fear its self.
The answer is to work to solve what you fear not to let fear force you to withdraw. It takes strength to not let fear overwhelm you.

You can't have read this article to post that nonsense. Here it is again and read all of it this time. Its not very long. The US and the rest of the world are "rules-based" China is not, if we keep letting them get away with IP theft they will dominate. The article seems to support Trump's "enforced rules-based" competition.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

So China's military aspirations are economically motivated

where would they have gotten such an idea???

~S~

China loves the actions Trump is taking by pulling back from our allies throughout the world. They are following the strategies taken by the US in the past to strengthen world influence and their economy.
US is pulling back from these strategies. It is obvious on how we are treating our allies and how China is reaching out to fill a void left by the US. Less obvious is on many areas of economic development. While China is becoming the world leader in development of Artificial Intelligence, the US is trying to bring back coal jobs and other jobs within industries that are disappearing in the 21st century.

 

[Brain357]

The partisans keep voting for the same spenders. Won’t be an issue.

 

[kyzr]

If the US Debt bubble sinks the US dollar, and the Yuan becomes the global currency, how much would that be worth to China?

If that did happen, China would lose a lot of money on the US debt. Plus, many of the Chinese billionaires are heavily invested in the US. One benefit of global markets is countries have vested interests in other countries doing well.
When China becomes the largest consuming market place in the world it will provide great opportunity for US companies. Isolationism is short sighted.

Naivete is short-sighted, not isolationism. Maybe you should listen to the Joint Chief's warnings. You apparently are a globalist only worried about the billionaires wealth. That was the last few decades' US policy, move jobs and factories to China. When the wolf is at the door, don't come crying to the middle-class to protect your wealth.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

whacked out paranoia. Fear drives people to isolate themselves. Fear drives countries to isolate themselves. only thing you have to fear is fear its self.
The answer is to work to solve what you fear not to let fear force you to withdraw. It takes strength to not let fear overwhelm you.

You can't have read this article to post that nonsense. Here it is again and read all of it this time. Its not very long. The US and the rest of the world are "rules-based" China is not, if we keep letting them get away with IP theft they will dominate. The article seems to support Trump's "enforced rules-based" competition.
China Poses Largest Long-Term Threat to U.S., DOD Policy Chief Says > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Story

I did read the article and it reaffirms everything I said about fear. Facing the China of the future we must be driven by resolve and actions not fear and isolation. The author of the article basically reaffirms that. As we isolate ourselves from the rest of the world, China is becoming stronger in the world by reaching out and helping more countries. They are doing what the US has done in the past to secure allies and increase their world power.

Ok, lets focus on the sentence we both semi-agree on:
"China is becoming stronger in the world by reaching out and helping more countries. They are doing what the US has done in the past to secure allies and increase their world power"

1. Is China helping other countries or getting their hooks in?
2. Do you really think that China's benevolence to other countries is exactly like what the US has done in the past?
3. Do you believe that China is a "rules-based" country where the rule of law governs their economy, and they never cheat or break the rules?
4. Do you trust China in business deals to always be fair?
5. Do you believe that China spies on everyone and steals whatever they can?