400 Americans

[kaz]

I've answered that a thousand times. Make government smaller, there is therefore less for them to control. That is the only way. Government is made of people, people are corruptible. People with money will buy them You can't change that. So you make the amount that can be corrupted as small as possible.

If you grasp what I just said and grasp human nature. You will now convert to being a small government libertarian. It is irrefutable. Anything else will be self delusion.

Making government smaller only to reduce corruption doesn't reduce corruption at all. It actually makes it easier for government to be bought off because there are then fewer individuals to buy

Try reading what I actually wrote again and addressing that.

If ending corruption is what you want, make the penalty for said corruption so costly that any possibile benefit is overwhelmed. We can start by passing a Constitutional amendment forcing Congress to abide by the same laws as everyone else, pulling the exemptions they themselves have allowed for themselves out from under them.

Right, if you scare them, people with money won't try to use it to buy influence and politicians will become honest. What color is the sky in your world?

 

[orogenicman]

My bad. I stand corrected. My question still stands (corrected, of course). The Walton family is one of the wealthiest families in the U.S., and yet threy cannot pay their people a living wage. Why is that?

"Living wage". I love that term. Shorthand for "How much I think you need to live a decent life".
Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it.

Walmart workers, and every other low wage earner earns less because in real dollars, their money is worth far less than it was worth 30 years ago.

Sounds like a problem with inflation.
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

It is more complcated than that. Inflation, yes, but also a drastic reduction in high paying jobs as those largely went overseas.

OK....
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

Walmart is one of the largest employers in the country, and it makes a crapload of money off the backs of its workers while they languish at the low end of the wage scale. It is a disgrace.

 

[orogenicman]

I've answered that a thousand times. Make government smaller, there is therefore less for them to control. That is the only way. Government is made of people, people are corruptible. People with money will buy them You can't change that. So you make the amount that can be corrupted as small as possible.

If you grasp what I just said and grasp human nature. You will now convert to being a small government libertarian. It is irrefutable. Anything else will be self delusion.

Making government smaller only to reduce corruption doesn't reduce corruption at all. It actually makes it easier for government to be bought off because there are then fewer individuals to buy

Try reading what I actually wrote again and addressing that.

If ending corruption is what you want, make the penalty for said corruption so costly that any possibile benefit is overwhelmed. We can start by passing a Constitutional amendment forcing Congress to abide by the same laws as everyone else, pulling the exemptions they themselves have allowed for themselves out from under them.

Right, if you scare them, people with money won't try to use it to buy influence and politicians will become honest. What color is the sky in your world?

I didn't say they wouldn't try. But using disencentives could work if it is enforced. You are not going to get rid of all the corruption, but you have to start somewhere. Start locking up the corrupt corporate CEOs, for one. The corrupt politicians for another. And I don't mean in a Hilton Hotel jail cell, either. Put them in with the general prison population. If that doesn't scare them straight, nothing will.

 

[M14 Shooter]

"Living wage". I love that term. Shorthand for "How much I think you need to live a decent life".
Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it.

Walmart workers, and every other low wage earner earns less because in real dollars, their money is worth far less than it was worth 30 years ago.

Sounds like a problem with inflation.
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

It is more complcated than that. Inflation, yes, but also a drastic reduction in high paying jobs as those largely went overseas.

OK....
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

Walmart is one of the largest employers in the country, and it makes a crapload of money off the backs of its workers while they languish at the low end of the wage scale. It is a disgrace.

Still not seeing a response that has anything to do with what I said.
Why do you keep avoiding what I said?

 

[Iceweasel]

Walmart is one of the largest employers in the country, and it makes a crapload of money off the backs of its workers while they languish at the low end of the wage scale. It is a disgrace.

But the customers apparently like the prices. It takes two to Tango.

 

[LogikAndReazon]

The Neo-Communists obsession with Walmart is comically pathetic.....
"Workers" of the world unite, Comrades

 

[kaz]

Right, if you scare them, people with money won't try to use it to buy influence and politicians will become honest. What color is the sky in your world?

I didn't say they wouldn't try. But using disencentives could work if it is enforced. You are not going to get rid of all the corruption, but you have to start somewhere. Start locking up the corrupt corporate CEOs, for one. The corrupt politicians for another. And I don't mean in a Hilton Hotel jail cell, either. Put them in with the general prison population. If that doesn't scare them straight, nothing will.

So your plan is for politicians to pass laws that put themselves and the people buying them into an actual prison, not a white collar one. That's your plan. You didn't answer one question. What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Skull Pilot]

More important in this context means worth more money.

When any moron off the street can run a machine they aren't worth much.

It's not true that any moron off the street can run a machine. It takes an ability to show up on time, sober and ready to work It takes an ability to follow instructions. It takes an ability to work at a very boring task for 8 hours or more without giving up.
Those dont sound like difficult skills but you'd be surprised how many people cannot do them. This is why factory workers even jus machine operators tend to make pretty good money given their education levels etc.

They aren't skills at all.

Those are certainly skills.

Staying sober? Doing what you're told?

Shit any 5 year old can do that

How about getting out of bed? How much are you going to pay a guy for that?

Not any 5 yr old can do that.
Hell, lots of 20 something year olds can't do that. Dont believe me?

And it's not my responsibility to make them do it is it?

Sorry but you
re barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for sympathy from me for people who have so little drive and common sense as not to know you have to get to work on time and not be drunk.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So they can't get another job?
They can't get a second job?

Judging by current unemployment figures millions of Americans can't find the first job. Millions more are unable to support their families on the amount they earn. Unemployment has become a structural problem that capitalism can not account for. BTW, about a hundred Americans starve to death every year.

If they starve to death then it's there choice because the help is there for anyone who asks.

And I could always find a job I'm sure the same is true today. it might not be a great job but if you want to you can work.

 

[orogenicman]

Walmart workers, and every other low wage earner earns less because in real dollars, their money is worth far less than it was worth 30 years ago.

Sounds like a problem with inflation.
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

It is more complcated than that. Inflation, yes, but also a drastic reduction in high paying jobs as those largely went overseas.

OK....
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

Walmart is one of the largest employers in the country, and it makes a crapload of money off the backs of its workers while they languish at the low end of the wage scale. It is a disgrace.

Still not seeing a response that has anything to do with what I said.
Why do you keep avoiding what I said?

You said "Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it." I addressed most of that in several posts. I don't know what you think I should be saying, but my response is directly related to yours. As for your claim that the work they do does not warrant being paid a living wage, well certainly it has in the past, and so I think you belittle the efforts of a lot of people who make their companies profitable. These people are making their companies very profitable, and should receive something other than a pittance in compensation for their efforts. And perhaps if they had more such incentive, they could make the companies even more profitable. That model has worked well in other industries. I see no reason why it can't work in companies such as Walmart.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Sounds like a problem with inflation.
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

It is more complcated than that. Inflation, yes, but also a drastic reduction in high paying jobs as those largely went overseas.

OK....
What does that have to do with anything -I- said?

Walmart is one of the largest employers in the country, and it makes a crapload of money off the backs of its workers while they languish at the low end of the wage scale. It is a disgrace.

Still not seeing a response that has anything to do with what I said.
Why do you keep avoiding what I said?

You said "Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it." I addressed most of that in several posts. I don't know what you think I should be saying, but my response is directly related to yours. As for your claim that the work they do does not warrant being paid a living wage, well certainly it has in the past, and so I think you belittle the efforts of a lot of people who make their companies profitable. These people are making their companies very profitable, and should receive something other than a pittance in compensation for their efforts. And perhaps if they had more such incentive, they could make the companies even more profitable. That model has worked well in other industries. I see no reason why it can't work in companies such as Walmart.

The person stuffing things in a bag is not making the company profitable.

The buyers, the people controlling inventory and costs and the people who move the goods to the stores are where the profits are made.

People would buy at Walmart if every register was self serve

 

[orogenicman]

Right, if you scare them, people with money won't try to use it to buy influence and politicians will become honest. What color is the sky in your world?

I didn't say they wouldn't try. But using disencentives could work if it is enforced. You are not going to get rid of all the corruption, but you have to start somewhere. Start locking up the corrupt corporate CEOs, for one. The corrupt politicians for another. And I don't mean in a Hilton Hotel jail cell, either. Put them in with the general prison population. If that doesn't scare them straight, nothing will.

So your plan is for politicians to pass laws that put themselves and the people buying them into an actual prison, not a white collar one. That's your plan. You didn't answer one question. What color is the sky in your world?

Yes I realize that in the corrupt political environment in which we find ourselves today, that's as likely to happen as to see pigs fly. It does take leadership, something we don't have. I said that that is what needs to happen. I didn't say it was going to be a reality anytime soon.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's not true that any moron off the street can run a machine. It takes an ability to show up on time, sober and ready to work It takes an ability to follow instructions. It takes an ability to work at a very boring task for 8 hours or more without giving up.
Those dont sound like difficult skills but you'd be surprised how many people cannot do them. This is why factory workers even jus machine operators tend to make pretty good money given their education levels etc.

They aren't skills at all.

Those are certainly skills.

Staying sober? Doing what you're told?

Shit any 5 year old can do that

How about getting out of bed? How much are you going to pay a guy for that?

Not any 5 yr old can do that.
Hell, lots of 20 something year olds can't do that. Dont believe me?

And it's not my responsibility to make them do it is it?

Sorry but you
re barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for sympathy from me for people who have so little drive and common sense as not to know you have to get to work on time and not be drunk.

We usually see eye to eye. I dont know why this is so hard for you though.
What I outlined are basic job skills Very basic. But lots of people just don't have them. Especially starting off. That's why they get paid min wage.

 

[Skull Pilot]

They aren't skills at all.

Those are certainly skills.

Staying sober? Doing what you're told?

Shit any 5 year old can do that

How about getting out of bed? How much are you going to pay a guy for that?

Not any 5 yr old can do that.
Hell, lots of 20 something year olds can't do that. Dont believe me?

And it's not my responsibility to make them do it is it?

Sorry but you
re barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for sympathy from me for people who have so little drive and common sense as not to know you have to get to work on time and not be drunk.

We usually see eye to eye. I dont know why this is so hard for you though.
What I outlined are basic job skills Very basic. But lots of people just don't have them. Especially starting off. That's why they get paid min wage.

Sorry but waking up in the morning is not a job skill, neither is showing up on time and sober.

The only "skill" needed to show up on time is the ability to read a clock and most people learn that in grade school.

This is just like the obesity thread. Just as people know that eating better and exercising will result in weight loss they all know that showing up to work late and drunk will get them fired.

 

[Staidhup]

With the US as a close number two behind Japans highest corporate tax rate what do you expect? Manufacturing will remain offshore, the middle class will continue to shrink, the government will continue to grow in strength that will eventually eclipse GDP. The left and liberal right will continue to reward those that choose to remain poor and destitute and continue fostering the decline of once was the America some of us still love.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You said "Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it." I addressed most of that in several posts.

No, you described the effects of inflation, the moving of high-paying jobs overseas...
You haven't said anything with regard to the fact that the work they do does not warrant more pay -- that is, a minimum wage job pays minimum wage because the work done doesn't wararnt more.

People earn what they job they have is worth paying.
Want more pay? Develop skills that an employer will pay you more to use.
Its up to YOU to get a better job; it's not the government's job to force companies to subsidize your lack of motivation, education, training or ability

 

[The Rabbi]

Those are certainly skills.

Staying sober? Doing what you're told?

Shit any 5 year old can do that

How about getting out of bed? How much are you going to pay a guy for that?

Not any 5 yr old can do that.
Hell, lots of 20 something year olds can't do that. Dont believe me?

And it's not my responsibility to make them do it is it?

Sorry but you
re barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for sympathy from me for people who have so little drive and common sense as not to know you have to get to work on time and not be drunk.

We usually see eye to eye. I dont know why this is so hard for you though.
What I outlined are basic job skills Very basic. But lots of people just don't have them. Especially starting off. That's why they get paid min wage.

Sorry but waking up in the morning is not a job skill, neither is showing up on time and sober.

The only "skill" needed to show up on time is the ability to read a clock and most people learn that in grade school.

This is just like the obesity thread. Just as people know that eating better and exercising will result in weight loss they all know that showing up to work late and drunk will get them fired.

That's stunningly incorrect.
You have to budget time. You have to dress appropriately. I realize this seems pretty elemental. And it is. But it is surprising how many people actually cannot do this.
Have you ever hired for an entry level position?

 

[kaz]

Right, if you scare them, people with money won't try to use it to buy influence and politicians will become honest. What color is the sky in your world?

I didn't say they wouldn't try. But using disencentives could work if it is enforced. You are not going to get rid of all the corruption, but you have to start somewhere. Start locking up the corrupt corporate CEOs, for one. The corrupt politicians for another. And I don't mean in a Hilton Hotel jail cell, either. Put them in with the general prison population. If that doesn't scare them straight, nothing will.

So your plan is for politicians to pass laws that put themselves and the people buying them into an actual prison, not a white collar one. That's your plan. You didn't answer one question. What color is the sky in your world?

Yes I realize that in the corrupt political environment in which we find ourselves today, that's as likely to happen as to see pigs fly. It does take leadership, something we don't have. I said that that is what needs to happen. I didn't say it was going to be a reality anytime soon.

Well, we agree on that. Cutting taxes and spending is something that could be measured by an aware public. Accountability isn't. So just spending less would work if people got behind it.

 

[orogenicman]

You said "Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it." I addressed most of that in several posts.

No, you described the effects of inflation, the moving of high-paying jobs overseas...
You haven't said anything with regard to the fact that the work they do does not warrant more pay -- that is, a minimum wage job pays minimum wage because the work done doesn't wararnt more.

People earn what they job they have is worth paying.
Want more pay? Develop skills that an employer will pay you more to use.
Its up to YOU to get a better job; it's not the government's job to force companies to subsidize your lack of motivation, education, training or ability

It's an artificial standard set up to justify paying slave wages. It's bullshit. If you are an employer paying minimum wage to the bulk of your work force, and have a 15% profit margin, then it is clear that those employees have value in the company. The company, in fact, would not exist without them. The fact that so many high paying jobs have been lost means that many people are now relying utterly on these lower paying jobs, a huge proportion of the work force, in fact. And so, what has happened is that the corporations have pulled the rug from underneath the middle class in this country. Ordinary people are working hard than ever for less pay, and factoring in inflation, it means they are riding a sinking boat. Thank you Ronnie Raygun.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You said "Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it." I addressed most of that in several posts.

No, you described the effects of inflation, the moving of high-paying jobs overseas...
You haven't said anything with regard to the fact that the work they do does not warrant more pay -- that is, a minimum wage job pays minimum wage because the work done doesn't wararnt more.

People earn what they job they have is worth paying.
Want more pay? Develop skills that an employer will pay you more to use.
Its up to YOU to get a better job; it's not the government's job to force companies to subsidize your lack of motivation, education, training or ability

It's an artificial standard set up to justify paying slave wages.

The open labor market sets an artificial standard?
If the open labor market doesn't set a legitimate standard as to what pay a job is worth, what does?