A Church Can Have its Own Police Force, Alabama's Senate Decided!!

[emilynghiem]

Holly shit! Really? Church Police? This is frightening! Sure, the stated purpose is to fight crime on church property, there is no assurance that they wont abuse their police power. Will they be targeting minorities??? This is a racist, homophobic church. Will they be harassing people who don't come to church on a regular basis?

In any case, this is a clear violation of the constitution. The State of Alabama is about to bestow the power of the government on a religious institution!

Alabama's Senate just voted to allow a church to have its own police force

The move would be unprecedented in the United States. And, according to experts, it would also be unquestionably unconstitutional.

Violation of Church and State?
The church's original press release stated that it intended only to "mirror" a Alabama law that allows educational institutions to have its own police forces.

But vesting those state powers in the hands of a religious institution, no matter how large, would violate the Establishment Clause of the Constitution—the separation of church and state—according to the Alabama chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

"What the bill attempts to do is to take what is a quintessential governmental power—law enforcement—and vest that police power in the hands of a religious institution," legal director Randall Marshall told Newsweek. "That would give church officials who run a police department the decision as to what laws to enforce, who to arrest, what levels of force would be needed to effectuate such an arrest. It so intertwines the church with state powers that it truly is an establishment clause problem."

????

Dear TheProgressivePatriot

If companies can hire their own security guards,
and Campuses can hire their own police on site.

Why isn't that enough for churches?
Why did this even require additional legislation?

Colleges and Companies can have their own policies
such as gun-free zones and ID checks at the entrances.

So there are some differences from citywide policies that
all other police follow.

Why isn't it ENOUGH to hire private police within those private premises?

I don't understand why this isn't enough.

Is it because of complications with "relations" between private and public police?

The last time I saw a news story in the media on this, a University Cop GOT FIRED
for abandoning his position to answer an emergency call for help from outside police needing backup:
Cop groups back fired Rice officer who helped out HPD

Whatever is the "relationship" between privately hired police zoned to
either a Church or College Campus (or private Company),
I do believe this should be improved to avoid legal complications.

If this policy needs to be challenged or changed, I would just make it where
ALL police, whether private or public hired, should be trained
in following the SAME CONSTITUTIONAL PROTOCOL that
the local residents also agree to be trained in and enforce.

The CITY police have enough problems trying to get officers
and the City on the same page with Constitutional law enforcement.

If you get CHURCHES involved, what we need is ALL CITIZENS
and COMMUNITIES to get involved in enforcing CONSTITUTIONAL protections.

www.ethics-commission.net
http://www.isocracytx.net/ec/hpdmissn.gif

Read the Constitution, particularly the first amendment.

Dear TheProgressivePatriot
Again I don't disagree with you here.
I'm just ADDING that the same limits for Constitutional protections
should be applied to ALL institutions, not just this case.

I'm GLAD to see you raising the call to enforce the Constitution.
I stand with you on this and ask that we start enforcing this
with regular police as well. And teach all citizens at the same time.

 

[emilynghiem]

So, are you saying that the US or state government was not instituted by God? Ok so if they weren't then they police you for their own games. The the church police is better because it polices you for God's gains. Anyways, they may end up like the Amish Maffia too.

Dear anotherlife
If it were necessary to believe the "US govt was instituted by God,"
this would make Constitutionalism a religion.
Clearly that isn't a necessary condition.

As long as TheProgressivePatriot believes in and agrees
to enforce the First Amendment, we can enforce limits on
govt and checks and balance by agreement, and stay totally secular.

Let's hold TheProgressivePatriot to this standard, since we all agree
it should protect people from religious abuse of govt authority.

The benefit will be mutual.
We can apply the same to stop Political Parties from acting
as Religious Organizations and imposing their beliefs through Govt
in violation of the First Amendment "religious freedom"
and Civil Rights laws against "Discrimination by Creed."

westwall what do you think of this approach?
We agree and resolve to enforce the First Amendment
not only in this case as TheProgressivePatriot rightfully petitions
but also for Political Parties abusing their religious authority to impose
beliefs and biases in govt policies affecting the public.

Shall we call a truce? And demand Constitutional education
and enforcement for ALL institutions including Churches
and Parties acting as Religious Organizations and bar
them ALL from invoking govt authority to impose on the public?

 

[emilynghiem]

westwall what do you think of this approach?
We agree and resolve to enforce the First Amendment
not only in this case as TheProgressivePatriot rightfully petitions
but also for Political Parties abusing their religious authority to impose
beliefs and biases in govt policies affecting the public.

Shall we call a truce? And demand Constitutional education
and enforcement for ALL institutions including Churches
and Parties acting as Religious Organizations and bar
them ALL from invoking govt authority to impose on the public?

So, are you saying that the US or state government was not instituted by God? Ok so if they weren't then they police you for their own games. The the church police is better because it polices you for God's gains. Anyways, they may end up like the Amish Maffia too.

Dear anotherlife
If it were necessary to believe the "US govt was instituted by God,"
this would make Constitutionalism a religion.
Clearly that isn't a necessary condition.

As long as TheProgressivePatriot believes in and agrees
to enforce the First Amendment, we can enforce limits on
govt and checks and balance by agreement, and stay totally secular.

Let's hold TheProgressivePatriot to this standard, since we all agree
it should protect people from religious abuse of govt authority.

The benefit will be mutual.
We can apply the same to stop Political Parties from acting
as Religious Organizations and imposing their beliefs through Govt
in violation of the First Amendment "religious freedom"
and Civil Rights laws against "Discrimination by Creed."

 

[Mike Dwight]

Read the first amendment

If you are referring to the establishment clause, you're out of your mind. Forming a police force to protect their church in no way establishes a state religion. They are safeguarding their lives and their property against anti Christian wackos.

Have they shown up at your door yet with guns to force you to go to their church? Let us know when that happens.

Why isn't Alabama the only State in 50 to be Government and Church? Historical Maryland, that's a historic Catholic refuge from history. What a screw up, 300 Catholic Holidays to physically have people Kneeling and Marching to this part of the Church or that, reduce all the holidays to hopefully close to none, then, just say the Religions stand for Liberty?! That's just totally wrong. Christians aren't these New Age Hippies taking over the Church, are they?
They said Eisenhower was violating the 1st Amendment to create our National Religion through a New Age Presbyterianism. They made all symbols of public God. The Pledge of Allegiance. The National Motto, that's on money. He's hitting at legitimacy and valid and consistent religion. The Confederate Government sided with the Presbyterians. If the Clergy IS a separate and autonomous branch of government, rather than King, or even to overthrow Kings historically, and that the Confederates added "the Sovereign Character of the States', "under Almighty God", in reference to "the God of Our Fathers" since the start of the war. Eisenhower denied that his action would abridge the 1st Amendment, turnabout is fairplay, down to the present day? What should that mean to the States and Their moral understanding. Alabama very organized fashion held the Confederate Constitution Convention, hosted the writing of Bonnie Blue Flag, John Knox wrote the current Alabama constitution, and I think Alabama's later flag to draw historically is obvious, and it plays a Strong card as the "Heart of Dixie" to Many historical events as the first capitol And to Presbyterian Establishment, such as Stonewall Jackson the religious figurehead, a memorizer of catechisms. The re-assertion of God in Government.

This isn't the time of States in some horrible relationship crisis. Shouldn't Alabama itself be forced to hear the arguments of a Compelled Confederate's outlook Through Presbyterian States as it preaches itself? They currently at the Montgomery Capitol have all 50 States flags, all 50, flying proudly like a United States … I mean United nations... Then put Korea up there. They should be Compelled through their religious claims to Presbyterian Confederacy at this Capitol building and the Governor to hear that.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Holly shit! Really? Church Police? This is frightening! Sure, the stated purpose is to fight crime on church property, there is no assurance that they wont abuse their police power. Will they be targeting minorities??? This is a racist, homophobic church. Will they be harassing people who don't come to church on a regular basis?

In any case, this is a clear violation of the constitution. The State of Alabama is about to bestow the power of the government on a religious institution!

Alabama's Senate just voted to allow a church to have its own police force

The move would be unprecedented in the United States. And, according to experts, it would also be unquestionably unconstitutional.

Violation of Church and State?
The church's original press release stated that it intended only to "mirror" a Alabama law that allows educational institutions to have its own police forces.

But vesting those state powers in the hands of a religious institution, no matter how large, would violate the Establishment Clause of the Constitution—the separation of church and state—according to the Alabama chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

"What the bill attempts to do is to take what is a quintessential governmental power—law enforcement—and vest that police power in the hands of a religious institution," legal director Randall Marshall told Newsweek. "That would give church officials who run a police department the decision as to what laws to enforce, who to arrest, what levels of force would be needed to effectuate such an arrest. It so intertwines the church with state powers that it truly is an establishment clause problem."

There is no separation of church and state anyways, because the Bible says that every government is instituted by God. So having a church police in addition to a state police is immaterial, isn't it?

The bible says? Give me a fucking break! This is the USA> This is a constitutional republic. It is NOT a theocracy,

So, are you saying that the US or state government was not instituted by God? Ok so if they weren't then they police you for their own games. The the church police is better because it polices you for God's gains. Anyways, they may end up like the Amish Maffia too.

That is absolutely ludicrous!! The job of the police is to protect and serve the public. Mostly they do it well. I'll take my chances with the forces of secular government.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Soy Boy ??Is that the most intelligent thing that you can come up with? Please explain exactly why I don't know what I'm talking about and how a church police force is constitutional.

Son, either cite relevant sources or shut the f*ck up. You are nothing more than a little man so filled with hatred you can't see straight.

Pop , I already did! I documented that fact that there is no precedent for a church having a police force, and it is just common fucking sense that there is a difference between a church and a school The fact that you are too obtuse to recognize it is not my problem.

Dear TheProgressivePatriot and Ambivalent1
Universities like Rice that hire and fire their own police
received FEDERAL FUNDING and thus must comply with
Civil Rights and other federal laws. That's why Rice was
legally required to desegregate after the Civil Rights Act
was passed in 1964 as a historic change to their institution.
Because they receive federal funding.

Churches do not receive federal funding and are not
governed by the same laws because they are RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS.

So this is different from a school especially one that receives federal funds.

The issue is that the government is violating the constitution by extending governmental powers in the form of police to a church. Yes, is is that simple, yet you and others here insist on twisting yourselves into pretzels over it.

^ Dear TheProgressivePatriot
Read my messages more carefully.

You might be shocked to find I am more in agreement
with you and even posted explanations to back up why you are contesting this as different
from security guards or from university police. Please read carefully!

Where I added something different is to promote Constitutional
education and enforcement for the whole public.

Dear Emily, Try to express your thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. To be honest, I don't have the time or patience to read every word of your rambling essays and to try to figure out what you mean. I doubt if anyone else does either. Most of the time I'm taking a stab in the dark at what you seem to mean.

 

[Mike Dwight]

That is "making a law respecting the establishment of religion"

So tell us. What is the established state religion of Alabama.

Do tell.

Well, Worse than this. There IS an established Religion that Alabama wants you to turn to for guidance, which I believe is preserved in Scotland or through the internet, and that Church they want you to pay attention to is meddled with by nationalistic forces in a selfish, isolationist fashion.

 

[emilynghiem]

That is "making a law respecting the establishment of religion"

So tell us. What is the established state religion of Alabama.

Do tell.

Well, Worse than this. There IS an established Religion that Alabama wants you to turn to for guidance, which I believe is preserved in Scotland or through the internet, and that Church they want you to pay attention to is meddled with by nationalistic forces in a selfish, isolationist fashion.

Dear williepete and Mike Dwight
This can't be worse than Political Parties acting as
Religious Organizations to establish Political Beliefs and Religions
through Govt! Why not address THAT overreaching while we're at it?

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Emily, Try to express your thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. To be honest, I don't have the time or patience to read every word of your rambling essays and to try to figure out what you mean. I doubt if anyone else does either. Most of the time I'm taking a stab in the dark at what you seem to mean.

Okay to summarize it shorter
I do agree with you to enforce the First Amendment limits for Constitution protections
in this case.
[I am adding that you and I could get MORE support for this
by uniting on Constitutional education and outreach to the public
to stop ALL abuses of police and govt power, not just this case, but all cases.]

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Dear Emily, Try to express your thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. To be honest, I don't have the time or patience to read every word of your rambling essays and to try to figure out what you mean. I doubt if anyone else does either. Most of the time I'm taking a stab in the dark at what you seem to mean.

Okay to summarize it shorter
I do agree with you to enforce the First Amendment limits for Constitution protections
in this case.
[I am adding that you and I could get MORE support for this
by uniting on Constitutional education and outreach to the public
to stop ALL abuses of police and govt power, not just this case, but all cases.]

And what exactly would that look like in reality ? PS Looks like you have met your match in Mike Dwight

 

[Mike Dwight]

I think the Articles of Confederation predated the Constitution as well as Federal Government. A long history of the States and their Heritage pre-dated the chains of the Colony statuses they were inflicted with. I think the Armenian Church in Georgia has existed for 1600 years, I was reading the 5% Armenian population of Georgia for fun. But, how heavily we are indoctrinated in a particular Nationalism that is a problem for all the "Reformed Churches in"

 

[westwall]

Dear Emily, Try to express your thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. To be honest, I don't have the time or patience to read every word of your rambling essays and to try to figure out what you mean. I doubt if anyone else does either. Most of the time I'm taking a stab in the dark at what you seem to mean.

Okay to summarize it shorter
I do agree with you to enforce the First Amendment limits for Constitution protections
in this case.
[I am adding that you and I could get MORE support for this
by uniting on Constitutional education and outreach to the public
to stop ALL abuses of police and govt power, not just this case, but all cases.]

Emily, the problem that you are going to have is the people who are up in arms about this are not rational.

Until they agree that all religions are protected here in this country, and that free speech actually means what it means, you will never get them to agree to anything.

They are extremists. And, as extremists they feel that their beliefs are the only ones that matter and many of these loons will kill those who believe otherwise.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Emily, Try to express your thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. To be honest, I don't have the time or patience to read every word of your rambling essays and to try to figure out what you mean. I doubt if anyone else does either. Most of the time I'm taking a stab in the dark at what you seem to mean.

Okay to summarize it shorter
I do agree with you to enforce the First Amendment limits for Constitution protections
in this case.
[I am adding that you and I could get MORE support for this
by uniting on Constitutional education and outreach to the public
to stop ALL abuses of police and govt power, not just this case, but all cases.]

Emily, the problem that you are going to have is the people who are up in arms about this are not rational.

Until they agree that all religions are protected here in this country, and that free speech actually means what it means, you will never get them to agree to anything.

They are extremists. And, as extremists they feel that their beliefs are the only ones that matter and many of these loons will kill those who believe otherwise.

Regardless westwall
As long as they agree on THIS case, we start with that.
We use that motivation to unite and push for Constitutional
education and outreach citywide and nationally to protect people from abuses.

Beauty is, we don't have to agree on which cases this applies to.
We enforce Constitutional education and protections for ALL cases.
So all get covered, even if people irrationally react to one case over others.
Doesn't matter.
We can still unite and get more done.
Anyone can bring their pet issues and Constitutional education would
address them in the same process.

 

[Mike Dwight]

I never understand what Emily means about education. On the OP, aren't the town Police force rented out rather obsessively for traffic control? Besides, most of them don't believe in a Parish, so they don't have a beat, do they?

 

[Marion Morrison]

Holly shit! Really? Church Police? This is frightening! Sure, the stated purpose is to fight crime on church property, there is no assurance that they wont abuse their police power. Will they be targeting minorities??? This is a racist, homophobic church. Will they be harassing people who don't come to church on a regular basis?

In any case, this is a clear violation of the constitution. The State of Alabama is about to bestow the power of the government on a religious institution!

Alabama's Senate just voted to allow a church to have its own police force

The move would be unprecedented in the United States. And, according to experts, it would also be unquestionably unconstitutional.

Violation of Church and State?
The church's original press release stated that it intended only to "mirror" a Alabama law that allows educational institutions to have its own police forces.

But vesting those state powers in the hands of a religious institution, no matter how large, would violate the Establishment Clause of the Constitution—the separation of church and state—according to the Alabama chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

"What the bill attempts to do is to take what is a quintessential governmental power—law enforcement—and vest that police power in the hands of a religious institution," legal director Randall Marshall told Newsweek. "That would give church officials who run a police department the decision as to what laws to enforce, who to arrest, what levels of force would be needed to effectuate such an arrest. It so intertwines the church with state powers that it truly is an establishment clause problem."

Fuck off. You don’t like our laws?Stay the fuck out....

This about our laws. It’s about our constitution Don’t like it ? Get out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't like the church laws, don't go there. It's not like you'd be stepping foot inside a church anyways...

 

[Terri4Trump]

My church has the Swiss guard, and they are badasses like Israeli Commandos. LOL

Holly shit! Really? Church Police? This is frightening! Sure, the stated purpose is to fight crime on church property, there is no assurance that they wont abuse their police power. Will they be targeting minorities??? This is a racist, homophobic church. Will they be harassing people who don't come to church on a regular basis?

In any case, this is a clear violation of the constitution. The State of Alabama is about to bestow the power of the government on a religious institution!

Alabama's Senate just voted to allow a church to have its own police force

The move would be unprecedented in the United States. And, according to experts, it would also be unquestionably unconstitutional.

Violation of Church and State?
The church's original press release stated that it intended only to "mirror" a Alabama law that allows educational institutions to have its own police forces.

But vesting those state powers in the hands of a religious institution, no matter how large, would violate the Establishment Clause of the Constitution—the separation of church and state—according to the Alabama chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

"What the bill attempts to do is to take what is a quintessential governmental power—law enforcement—and vest that police power in the hands of a religious institution," legal director Randall Marshall told Newsweek. "That would give church officials who run a police department the decision as to what laws to enforce, who to arrest, what levels of force would be needed to effectuate such an arrest. It so intertwines the church with state powers that it truly is an establishment clause problem."

There is no separation of church and state anyways, because the Bible says that every government is instituted by God. So having a church police in addition to a state police is immaterial, isn't it?

The bible says? Give me a fucking break! This is the USA> This is a constitutional republic. It is NOT a theocracy,

So, are you saying that the US or state government was not instituted by God? Ok so if they weren't then they police you for their own games. The the church police is better because it polices you for God's gains. Anyways, they may end up like the Amish Maffia too.

That is absolutely ludicrous!! The job of the police is to protect and serve the public. Mostly they do it well. I'll take my chances with the forces of secular government.

I thought you Progressive freaks hated the police for killing all the black kids

 

[emilynghiem]

I never understand what Emily means about education. On the OP, aren't the town Police force rented out rather obsessively for traffic control? Besides, most of them don't believe in a Parish, so they don't have a beat, do they?

Dear Mike Dwight
Constitutional and civics education would involve 3 levels,
depending how far people want to go with this:
1. One is basically educating people on their rights BEFORE a conflict comes up.
This is mostly for prevention and protection by AVOIDING violations to begin with.
see www.ethics-commission.net for example policies I support for public distribution and education

2. The next deeper level is Conflict Resolution where people learn how to
set up and apply mediation so they can exercise freedom of speech and press,
and right to petition "each other directly", to protect their own democratic due process.

This is taking the above basic principles (Bill of Rights, Code of Ethics, etc.)
and applying them to democratic problem solving, participation and representation locally.

This also prevents and protects people from worse abuses and violations
from escalating out of their control. So they learn self-governance by addressing
and resolving their own issues locally.

3. The really deep almost "spiritual" level of education about laws and enforcement
is similar to what Christians teach using Biblical laws. This involves teaching people
that by invoking and COMMITTING to EMBODY and ENFORCE these laws themselves,
as Police and Military take a sacred oath of duty to uphold and defend the Constitution,
this is what "EMPOWERS" people to BE EQUAL AS THEIR OWN GOVT AUTHORITY.

Not everyone gets that level.

Most people understand level 1 and some know enough to want to promote level 2.

Still Mike Dwight I believe EVERY person especially to be a law abiding equal citizen
should have FULLY INFORMED CHOICES as to what level of protection they want.

Level 1 means at least you know to get help when your rights are at risk of violation.
You should at least know WHAT the laws are and what your rights are to seek protection
in the first place.

Level 2 means you have access to HELP to protect and enforce your rights.
You make sure your local govt or district/school or city officials have some
means of redress grievances where you can mediate and petition to get issues resolved in your
best interest so you don't suffer abuse and oppression.

Level 3 means you are aware that people who DO adopt laws by conscience
as Police and Military do (and Judges and other govt officials who vow to uphold Constitutional laws)
take on equal authority and responsibility of Govt. So if you do the same, so do you.

People need to know how the law works, and how authority of govt is vested in
responsibility for enforcement which we can all share equally.
Otherwise we cannot promise equal protection of the laws if
people aren't educated and don't have equal access.

 

[emilynghiem]

And what exactly would that look like in reality ? PS Looks like you have met your match in Mike Dwight

Looks like with Mike Dwight, who goes over my head,
westwall and others, each of them
would have their own focus and angle as well.
It's different for each person and issue.

 

[Mike Dwight]

There are 70 million catholics in the US, while Presbyterians started as a third to half of the Independence signers, converted an English populace and led one side of the Civil War, had 8 million followers At Least when Woodrow Wilson took the Theory of Confederacy to the World, they had 1950 7 million Presbyterians, Eisenhower makes up some junk, all the British states lose their Presbyterians, we're down to 1.5 million, and the goal was to clear out Catholics in the First Place like In Korea! Why, somebody correct me, somebody tell me where I'm wrong, the King of Korea who had not been yet Guided by the Bible, or capable of Good by himself, may have been sainted by the Catholic Massacres, especially with that meddlesome French Bishop from China, his on little Bishop war, is it safe to come over now, Romanists Romanist Romanists.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Emily, Try to express your thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. To be honest, I don't have the time or patience to read every word of your rambling essays and to try to figure out what you mean. I doubt if anyone else does either. Most of the time I'm taking a stab in the dark at what you seem to mean.

Okay to summarize it shorter
I do agree with you to enforce the First Amendment limits for Constitution protections
in this case.
[I am adding that you and I could get MORE support for this
by uniting on Constitutional education and outreach to the public
to stop ALL abuses of police and govt power, not just this case, but all cases.]

And what exactly would that look like in reality ? PS Looks like you have met your match in Mike Dwight

Dear TheProgressivePatriot
In reality, every person and group I've talked with
has their own issues they focus on. So I suggest
we organize likeminded advocates by party precinct,
by school district, and with their local city council reps,
county or congressional districts. That way we don't
all have to agree on every issue, but we can still organize
and collaborate anyway.

We work with teacher's unions and/or local schools
with parents/teachers with the same concerns about
civics and Constitutional education to stop abuses.
In this case it's the church issue, but with others it's
school shootings and security. The LGBT and Christian
issues are another one that schools are facing.

The BASIC principles to teach all people to enforce
are summarized in the Bill of Rights, and the Fourteenth
Amendment on equal protection of the laws for all persons.
www.ethics-commission.net
^ I INCLUDED the local Police Mission statement because
the Police are SWORN to uphold the Constitution and
democratic principles thereunder. So if you go to authorities
that answer to the Constitution, and invoke these principles,
they have to answer to the petitions based on those.

What CITY are you located?
If you are starting in your hometown, I would work with
you local party precinct and police/teacher union or
school district where you can find people willing to commit
to this outreach.

If you want to start with people protesting in Alabama,
we would contact party leaders and groups, and either
city, county or school districts there.

TheProgressivePatriot are you looking at starting
where YOU are, or focusing on helping protesters in AL?

Do you want to direct this to the Mayor or Governor?
Depending where you want to focus, it will look different!