"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[uscitizen]

If you expect to spend eternity in God's care, the very least you can do is show a modicom of respect.

If you don't He's not going to subject the rest of us to your idiocy.

I do not believe in eternity.
And do not think I would want to exist forever anyway.
esp if it was with Pat Robertson and Koshergirl.
The rapture did happen last year and only 6 qualified and were never missed.

Prove me wrong

 

[koshergrl]

Good for you. Enjoy eternity in Hell with ppl like Hitler, Stalin, and who knows who else. I'm sure they're preferable country to old Pat.

 

[Montrovant]

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Think of it this way...a loving parent must exert discipline, and protect his or her children from evil people and influences. That means there are times when you have to punish a child, and it also means there are some people you must put away from you.

Add to that the fact that God is also completely righteous and can tolerate no sin and it becomes clear why there has to be punishment, and eternal punishment. Humans are sinful, and the only way to remove our sin and make us worthy of the presence of God is via Christ's blood. It's about the easiest way imaginable to make sure you will spend eternity in heaven, you just have to believe or ask to be saved (you don't even have to be convinced, conviction can come later) and you can write off the chance of spending eternity in hell.

I understand the idea of god as a parent, and we are children who must, on occasion, be punished. I can accept that analogy. It is the eternal punishment that I don't understand, at least when god is supposed to be loving and merciful. Eternal punishment is not merciful. It is ETERNAL. Never ends. Ever. A billion years, a trillion years, a google years, the punishment continues. That is not love and mercy. Now, if hell is more like purgatory and you can leave it and move on to heaven once you fix your problems, that's different. If the only punishment is that you are outside the presence of god, that's different. I have seen Christians use both explanations. But if hell is a one way trip of burning in a lake of fire type torment, the closest I can come to the parent analogy is that a newborn cries, and the parent decides to punish them by torturing the child for the rest of it's life.

But we digress. I'm not going to post any more in this thread about this line of discussion because I think it's a bit of a derailment from the original point. I'd be happy to go into it elsewhere.

 

[uscitizen]

Good for you. Enjoy eternity in Hell with ppl like Hitler, Stalin, and who knows who else. I'm sure they're preferable country to old Pat.

Hell does not exist, except for the one we can make for ourselves on this earth while alive.

btw if it does exist I will have plenty of company from supposed christians

Perhaps you we can continue this conversation for all eternity?

 

[HUGGY]

If you expect to spend eternity in God's care, the very least you can do is show a modicom of respect.

If you don't He's not going to subject the rest of us to your idiocy.

Who are you "gods" publicity agent? How the fuck do YOU know what this sky fairy wants? Your stupid bible was supposedly written two thousand years ago. Maybe your "god" saw what a pack of scum and vermin you all turned into and how you idiots wast his time praying at football games and everything. If "god" made EVERYTHING and has to give the say so even when a hummingbird farts ... then your stupid god made people like me that want to see you all burned to cinders in your cult churches.

Ya maybe your god saw what a waste of time it has been to give you fools "His Words". Maybe you aren't his favorites any more. You know what? If there is a god I bet he likes me more than you.

 

[logical4u]

OK, I guess I need to clarify.

If the concept of sin or wrongdoing is reasonably narrow, and the category of acceptable behavior sufficiently wide, then freedom doesn't have to be the freedom to sin. But in traditional Christian thought. it's the other way around; the range of acceptable thought, feeling, and behavior is extremely narrow while the category of sinful behavior includes almost everything. God lays down rules for us to follow governing every aspect of our lives, right down to the activity of our brains, and there is precious little wiggle-room. It is that narrowness that is anti-liberty.

Not that you would "get it", but this is along the lines of that country song: "you've got to stand for something or you will fall for anything".

Either you understand or you don't, no intellectual hidden meanings, just common sense. If you are willing to accept anything, you will stand for nothing.

 

[koshergrl]

If you expect to spend eternity in God's care, the very least you can do is show a modicom of respect.

If you don't He's not going to subject the rest of us to your idiocy.

Who are you "gods" publicity agent? How the fuck do YOU know what this sky fairy wants? Your stupid bible was supposedly written two thousand years ago. Maybe your "god" saw what a pack of scum and vermin you all turned into and how you idiots wast his time praying at football games and everything. If "god" made EVERYTHING and has to give the say so even when a hummingbird farts ... then your stupid god made people like me that want to see you all burned to cinders in your cult churches.

Ya maybe your god saw what a waste of time it has been to give you fools "His Words". Maybe you aren't his favorites any more. You know what? If there is a god I bet he likes me more than you.

Wow.

*crazy rant*.

See the similarity? Yes? No?

 

[ABikerSailor]

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Think of it this way...a loving parent must exert discipline, and protect his or her children from evil people and influences. That means there are times when you have to punish a child, and it also means there are some people you must put away from you.

Add to that the fact that God is also completely righteous and can tolerate no sin and it becomes clear why there has to be punishment, and eternal punishment. Humans are sinful, and the only way to remove our sin and make us worthy of the presence of God is via Christ's blood. It's about the easiest way imaginable to make sure you will spend eternity in heaven, you just have to believe or ask to be saved (you don't even have to be convinced, conviction can come later) and you can write off the chance of spending eternity in hell.

You said that the easiest way imaginable to spend eternity in Heaven is to be worthy via Christ's blood.

Yeah.............I guess that's okay if you're lazy and want someone else to do all the work for you, but a quick question............

What about those that already keep God's laws via the Torah and Judaic theology?

What about the Hindus?

What about the Buddhists, the Taoists and those that follow Zen?

Is your God going to consign those people to hell for eternity just because they don't follow YOUR narrow path?

Really compassionate god you have there Halal Twit............and yeah, I used the lower case "g" because your understanding is so limited.

The true incarnation of God is too big to be contained in just one religion, unless, of course, you believe as those of the Islamic faith.

 

[Big Fitz]

If you expect to spend eternity in God's care, the very least you can do is show a modicom of respect.

If you don't He's not going to subject the rest of us to your idiocy.

Who are you "gods" publicity agent? How the fuck do YOU know what this sky fairy wants? Your stupid bible was supposedly written two thousand years ago. Maybe your "god" saw what a pack of scum and vermin you all turned into and how you idiots wast his time praying at football games and everything. If "god" made EVERYTHING and has to give the say so even when a hummingbird farts ... then your stupid god made people like me that want to see you all burned to cinders in your cult churches.

Ya maybe your god saw what a waste of time it has been to give you fools "His Words". Maybe you aren't his favorites any more. You know what? If there is a god I bet he likes me more than you.

Wow.

*crazy rant*.

See the similarity? Yes? No?

The little I know about handwriting analysis shows that that note writer suffers from:

Depression or at least a poor outlook on life from downward flow of the end of lines,
Possible schizophrenia is common among those who write near sideways 's' (Adolf Hitler did this towards the end of his life)
Disorganized thought patterns due to the poor letter and line spacing
High pressure on the pencil indicates either anger, rage, high stress or a manic state
Bottom heavy capitals indicate an attachment to the worldly and carnal

Who was that? Ted Kazinski? It did say Montana.

 

[koshergrl]

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Think of it this way...a loving parent must exert discipline, and protect his or her children from evil people and influences. That means there are times when you have to punish a child, and it also means there are some people you must put away from you.

Add to that the fact that God is also completely righteous and can tolerate no sin and it becomes clear why there has to be punishment, and eternal punishment. Humans are sinful, and the only way to remove our sin and make us worthy of the presence of God is via Christ's blood. It's about the easiest way imaginable to make sure you will spend eternity in heaven, you just have to believe or ask to be saved (you don't even have to be convinced, conviction can come later) and you can write off the chance of spending eternity in hell.

You said that the easiest way imaginable to spend eternity in Heaven is to be worthy via Christ's blood.

Yeah.............I guess that's okay if you're lazy and want someone else to do all the work for you, but a quick question............

What about those that already keep God's laws via the Torah and Judaic theology?

What about the Hindus?

What about the Buddhists, the Taoists and those that follow Zen?

Is your God going to consign those people to hell for eternity just because they don't follow YOUR narrow path?

Really compassionate god you have there Halal Twit............and yeah, I used the lower case "g" because your understanding is so limited.

The true incarnation of God is too big to be contained in just one religion, unless, of course, you believe as those of the Islamic faith.

Says you.

Thanks, it's not my path, it's God's. Jews have a different relationship with God. Those who have never be exposed to Christ's salvation, i don't know.

I'm sorry you can't wrap your tiny brain around the concept, and instead want to kibbitz with your Creator. But of course you have the freedom to do that. I'm sure hell will be full of people who think they knew the way God SHOULD have done things, and who thought they could hold the line at whatever silly arrogance compelled them to reject and ridicule. You have fun with that.

 

[Dragon]

Just to be clear, what I'm doing here is to question, not God, but people's claims about God. When someone says, "The Ground and Being of the Universe requires that you follow this particular religion or He/She/It will torture your soul forever and ever," I am skeptical, particularly when those claiming this are followers of that religion themselves, and most of all when the claim originally came from the leaders of that religion, who obviously stood to benefit from having many obedient followers.

I am not saying that God is a tyrant and a freedom-hater. I am saying that many of the people who have the arrogance to speak in God's name are tyrants and freedom-haters, or slaves accustomed to the yoke and trained to insist that others join them in slavery. I am also saying that these claims are false, and that God is actually NOT like that at all.

I would have the same reaction to a parent who tortured his or her children with whips and hot irons as punishment for disobedience.

 

[Dragon]

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Great, then we agree.

Again for clarity, I'm not criticizing Christianity per se. All Gods are one God, all Goddesses one Goddess, and there is but one initiator. I keep in mind the story of the blind men and the elephant, and realize that all religious doctrines are metaphor and myth, ideas to stir the soul and move the heart closer to the Holy. By that measure, the central myth of Christianity is fine, stating the unity of man and God and illustrating the process of death and rebirth. Jesus is also a fine God-form and vehicle for the All.

My only problem is with the narrow-minded, punishment-heavy, anti-liberty add-ons that unfortunately often accompany the perfectly valid core of the faith. It is those add-ons that are false and malevolent, and those only. And they are equally false and malevolent in a different, non-Christian context, Islam being particularly prone to them.

 

[Big Fitz]

Dragon, I think you are mistaking consequences for lack of freedom. As I understand it, in Christianity everyone has the freedom to believe what they will, there are just consequences for those beliefs.

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Really? Incompatible you say?

Let's flip this around and see what you think.

You have two children, you love with all your heart. You want to do everything for them, but you want them to love you back and you want them to choose to love you completely of their own choice. So you tell them, they can have your help if they ask you to. Your one rule to show they respect and love you? Obey your house rules which are very basic stuff that boils down to respect their sibling and others as well as yourself. If they won't obey the rules, they must get out.

The first child says okay, and goes off to do what they want around the house. They obey the rules, and ask you for help when they need it. Generally, the keep on being a good child to you and their sibling and others.

The other child though... well, they don't care so much for treating their sibling well. They start asking you to take things from their sibling because they want it instead, and they're not nice about how they ask either, showing a lack of respect. The more you chide them, gently for being so rude and demanding such requests from you, the more angry they get at you and start disrespecting you, calling you names, and finally denying your right to be in control of your house. Their apex of insults is saying they demand you get out of their life and never speak to them again. Of course, they will continue to reside in your house and accept all the privileges that come with it, without thanks.

Now, when the time comes that they become adults and you must move on. You now have to choose whether or not you are going to allow in your new home a child that obviously hates you despite your best efforts short of directly controlling them, or not? You know full well they cannot survive without you, but their hatred for you is so strong, they wish you dead and maybe... JUST maybe, would try it too.

Would you bring that grown child behind to their own doom, or threaten your existence or that of the child who loves you? Is your love such that you would allow yourself to be destroyed for someone who hates you so completely and would destroy everything you created given the chance? Or is it such that you would give them the life without you, knowing full well, while they don't, that they will perish?

 

[Montrovant]

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Really? Incompatible you say?

Let's flip this around and see what you think.

You have two children, you love with all your heart. You want to do everything for them, but you want them to love you back and you want them to choose to love you completely of their own choice. So you tell them, they can have your help if they ask you to. Your one rule to show they respect and love you? Obey your house rules which are very basic stuff that boils down to respect their sibling and others as well as yourself. If they won't obey the rules, they must get out.

The first child says okay, and goes off to do what they want around the house. They obey the rules, and ask you for help when they need it. Generally, the keep on being a good child to you and their sibling and others.

The other child though... well, they don't care so much for treating their sibling well. They start asking you to take things from their sibling because they want it instead, and they're not nice about how they ask either, showing a lack of respect. The more you chide them, gently for being so rude and demanding such requests from you, the more angry they get at you and start disrespecting you, calling you names, and finally denying your right to be in control of your house. Their apex of insults is saying they demand you get out of their life and never speak to them again. Of course, they will continue to reside in your house and accept all the privileges that come with it, without thanks.

Now, when the time comes that they become adults and you must move on. You now have to choose whether or not you are going to allow in your new home a child that obviously hates you despite your best efforts short of directly controlling them, or not? You know full well they cannot survive without you, but their hatred for you is so strong, they wish you dead and maybe... JUST maybe, would try it too.

Would you bring that grown child behind to their own doom, or threaten your existence or that of the child who loves you? Is your love such that you would allow yourself to be destroyed for someone who hates you so completely and would destroy everything you created given the chance? Or is it such that you would give them the life without you, knowing full well, while they don't, that they will perish?

As I said to KG, I don't want to derail this discussion about religion and freedom by going into the idea of hell. I'll just say I think your analogy is a false one, and I'd be happy to discuss it further in another thread or pm's.

If Dragon doesn't care about us taking the thread in another direction, I'll get more in depth here, I just don't want to get too far away from the original premise.

 

[Dragon]

I'd say that's on-topic.

Punishment is compatible with love, but only as a means of correction, to cause a change in behavior. (Even then, it's appropriate to ask what behavior is being objected to. In traditional Christianity, merely holding a heretical opinion is condemned. That's incompatible with liberty, to say nothing of love.)

To put everything in perspective, it might help to consider what punishments would be thought of as "cruel and unusual" if administered by a government. Harsh prison conditions and the death penalty are both controversial. What would we think of a government that put a prisoner on life-support and administered electrical stimulation to the pain centers of the brain, producing a condition of acute agony that lasted for years? Would we not regard this as excessive? Do we not, even those of us who believe in capital punishment, condemn deliberately excruciating execution methods used in more barbaric times (burning at the stake, crucifixion, breaking on the wheel, drawing and quartering, impalement, etc.)? If so, then why would we expect God to be more unjust and more inhumane than tyrants out of our own barbaric past?

Yet the beliefs of traditional Christianity include a belief that he is, that he inflicts torture lasting literally forever -- and that for "offenses" that a reasonable person would not condemn at all, such as following the lead of logic and evidence to places that may be heterodox.

It's all of a piece: unbelievably hideous punishments inflicted for trivial offenses, or for things that shouldn't be offenses, that are in fact actual virtues! Hell is the invention of a tyranny. If it is real, then God is a tyrant; if not (which is of course what I believe), then it is the church that is a tyrant, claiming to speak for God and demanding obedience to its own commands in his name.

 

[koshergrl]

Besides which, since when do we ask Dragon for permission about which topics are permissable?

 

[koshergrl]

And his ignorance of Christianity speaks for itself.

you aren't punished for minor offenses. When you're in hell you're being punished for forsaking God. That's it. That's the one sin that isn't forgiven.

 

[ABikerSailor]

And his ignorance of Christianity speaks for itself.

you aren't punished for minor offenses. When you're in hell you're being punished for forsaking God. That's it. That's the one sin that isn't forgiven.

I wish that you Christians would get together sometime and agree on what is and isn't a "sin".

Some Christians think that gambling, drinking and dancing are "sins", yet they really aren't, they're actually vices.

The only sins that there are, are the ones listed in either the 7 Noahide Commandments or those listed in the 10 Commandments.

But, now we've got the resident Christian fringer in Halal Twit telling us there is only one sin.

Like I said, I wish Christians would get together sometime and agree on what is and isn't.

 

[Montrovant]

Besides which, since when do we ask Dragon for permission about which topics are permissable?

Not a matter of permissible, I just didn't want to derail the thread he started. I was just trying to be courteous.

 

[Montrovant]

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Really? Incompatible you say?

Let's flip this around and see what you think.

You have two children, you love with all your heart. You want to do everything for them, but you want them to love you back and you want them to choose to love you completely of their own choice. So you tell them, they can have your help if they ask you to. Your one rule to show they respect and love you? Obey your house rules which are very basic stuff that boils down to respect their sibling and others as well as yourself. If they won't obey the rules, they must get out.

The first child says okay, and goes off to do what they want around the house. They obey the rules, and ask you for help when they need it. Generally, the keep on being a good child to you and their sibling and others.

The other child though... well, they don't care so much for treating their sibling well. They start asking you to take things from their sibling because they want it instead, and they're not nice about how they ask either, showing a lack of respect. The more you chide them, gently for being so rude and demanding such requests from you, the more angry they get at you and start disrespecting you, calling you names, and finally denying your right to be in control of your house. Their apex of insults is saying they demand you get out of their life and never speak to them again. Of course, they will continue to reside in your house and accept all the privileges that come with it, without thanks.

Now, when the time comes that they become adults and you must move on. You now have to choose whether or not you are going to allow in your new home a child that obviously hates you despite your best efforts short of directly controlling them, or not? You know full well they cannot survive without you, but their hatred for you is so strong, they wish you dead and maybe... JUST maybe, would try it too.

Would you bring that grown child behind to their own doom, or threaten your existence or that of the child who loves you? Is your love such that you would allow yourself to be destroyed for someone who hates you so completely and would destroy everything you created given the chance? Or is it such that you would give them the life without you, knowing full well, while they don't, that they will perish?

The problem with any analogy comparing hell and a human experience is that of time. If hell is eternal punishment, there is no real parallel in human experience.

There are different version of hell that people believe, so the argument isn't all encompassing. If hell is considered a place of eternal torment, where damned souls suffer torture for all time, there is nothing a person can do to deserve that from a loving, merciful god. Hell being a place of eternal suffering is, IMO, proof that god is anything but loving and merciful.

If hell is merely separation from god, it's different. If hell is not permanent, if one can either gain access to heaven or at least escape to oblivion, it's different. I just don't see how anyone can possibly believe in an all-powerful god who determines the placement of human souls is loving and merciful if that same god is willing to condemn those souls to never ending torture.

Of course, I have a problem with the idea of a being so far beyond human experience being limited with human thoughts, ideas or emotions. If there is a god who created the universe, who exists eternally, who sees everything that happens in the universe, who is not bound by the laws of reality that we are, I think it's unlikely such a being thinks of things like love, hate, good or bad anything like humanity does. In fact, I would guess it's probably impossible for us to really understand the thought process of such a being. So perhaps there is an eternal hell of suffering and the problem is that trying to shoe-horn god into an anthropomorphic shell doesn't work.

To go back to the original point, while I think Dragon's slave comparison was off, perhaps prisoner might work better as an analogy. Imagine a prison in which there are no rules. However, if someone follows a particular pattern of behavior, they will be released; those who choose to act otherwise remain trapped. That seems closer to the idea of religion and freedom to choose, although it's not perfect.