"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[Newby]

Christians are not trying to turn America into a theocrasy

Your sort of Christian is. Christians in general, maybe not.

they could have done so if they wished when they founded the country to begin with.

Your sort of Christian was certainly not in the majority when the Constitution was ratified.

Here's a general reply to all of your posts, Newby. This will cover absolutely everything you've said.

The most revealing comment was your statement that all reason and evidence are "subjective." This implies that there is no such thing as truth, and reason, evidence, and the truth itself may be distorted at will, because truth doesn't really exist anyway -- a highly post-modernist perspective with which I have never agreed.

This belief, though, seems to make you think you are allowed to distort and misrepresent other people's posts, and to argue based on logical fallacies and the twisting of words, rather than actually addressing posts. Everything you have said on this thread falls into that category, from your request for a "link to a list," without ever once denying that the list I presented above (and which you actually quoted) describes the beliefs of traditional Christianity; to your assertion that I want to fuck everything in sight, when anyone reading for comprehension can see that is not even close to anything I said; to your statement just above that I had never answered your questions, when in fact I did -- perhaps not in the way you wanted me too, but that's your problem, not mine.

You might want to give some thought to what it says about your beliefs that you feel a need to lie through your teeth in order to support them. If they cannot be supported in a straightforward and logical manner, that's an indictment of them in itself.

What is 'my sort' of christian? Is this where you start to tell me what I believe? Why don't you tell us all how it is that you know what I believe? Define 'my sort' of christian? What is the basis for our belief? What scripture are we following that the 'other sort' of christian that you claim is out there is not not following? Let's get some details here, Dragon. After all, you know so much about it, let's hear some details instead of over arching and meaningless platitudes like 'christians are against freedom'. You make such stupid assinine remarks and then never, ever back it up with any reasoning at all.

And here is the LIST that I was asking for. You make reference to a list within your official 'exclusive list' that is bolded below, I even highlighted in red in the previous post what I was referring too, but yet you still act like you are unable to follow. Perhaps it is not an act? The list that I am asking for is bolded and highlighted in RED? Is that easy enough for you?

Or afterthought - perhaps I should ask - what do you mean by "traditional" Christianity?

Ah, a good and pertinent question. Traditional Christians share the following beliefs, which may not be an exclusive list:

1) Christianity is the only true religion.
2) The Bible is God's word and is true in every passage. (In most cases, I could add the word "literally" before "true.")
3) There is a very narrow list of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors which can be considered morally acceptable; everything outside that list is sinful and wrong.
4) Everyone who sins (i.e., thinks, feels, or behaves at any time in his/her life outside that narrow band of acceptable thought, feeling, and behavior, which of course means everyone) will be condemned by God to Hell, unless forgiven by God; but:
5) God is willing to forgive any Christians who sincerely repent of their sins. (Non-Christians need not apply unless they become Christians first.)

One may of course follow the teachings of Christ without being a traditional Christian in the above sense, and there are many non-traditional Christians around, of whom you may be one yourself.

And the irony of you talking about people distorting your posts whenever you create a thread which lies and distorts an entire religion's belief system just makes you an object of pity really.

 

[Dragon]

What is 'my sort' of christian?

That has been explained at length. If you in fact don't believe in some or all of the ways that I have described, you need only say so. I'll be happy to take your word for it. Failing that, though, you are just (again) playing disingenuous and deceptive games, or, as I said, lying through your teeth.

And here is the LIST that I was asking for.

Right, there it is, just as I said. Your question is answered. Now, if you disagree that any of those points are the beliefs of traditional Christians, say so, and we'll go from there. But otherwise, you are just (again) playing disingenuous and deceptive games, or, as I said, lying through your teeth.

And the irony of you talking about people distorting your posts whenever you create a thread which lies and distorts an entire religion's belief system

Really? How, pray tell, have I distorted traditional Christianity? What have I said that traditional Christians believe, that they don't believe? You may use the list you just quoted, but never really answered except with a lot of bullshit.

Do traditional Christians believe that they have the only true religion, or not?

Do they believe that the Bible is God's word, and true in every passage, or not?

Is the range of acceptable thought, behavior, and emotion in traditional Christianity narrow, or is it broad? (Put another way: is the road to Heaven "straight and narrow," or is it wide and easy?)

Do traditional Christians believe that every unforgiven sinner goes to Hell, or not?

Do traditional Christians believe that only Christians can be forgiven, or not?

Let's hear it.

 

[Newby]

The above exchange between ABK and KG illustrates the main point of this thread: that traditional Christians have enslaved minds. KG accepts dubious evidence of dubious claims, because she MUST believe as she does. If her mind strays into forbidden territory, Hell's jaws open.

There is no way to think rationally under a threat like that. Hence the utter stupidity of creationist arguments, the desperate defensiveness against challenges (as they see it) from other religions, the anger and hostility towards unbelievers. It's anger born of fear, fear for their own souls, fear of the contagion of freedom.

Desperate???? Okay...

Anger and hostility? You're the one with anger and hostility, you started the thread to get exactly that response. Does it give you a reward to trash someone else's belief system? Is that the reward? I really don't get it, most people just live their lives and respect others around them, why is it that you can't seem to do that same? If you go back through our discussion (you and me), the only one who got combative and felt the need to lash out and call names was you sweetie. Really, get a grip on reality.

 

[Newby]

You had already posted remarks to posts I had made after the posts I'm referring too.

Then you knew that I had already answered you, and were being disingenuous. Refusing to play your game is not refusing to respond to your arguments. It's just refusing to play your game.

Is it your paganism that makes you so vile, or do you take credit for that all on your own?

It's being free. Slaves like yourself, taking the viewpoint of your masters, always think that free people are evil. But whether denying the master's will is evil (unlike reasoning and evidence) really does depend on perspective.

No, there are many of my posts that you never addressed sparky.

 

[Newby]

You had already posted remarks to posts I had made after the posts I'm referring too.

Then you knew that I had already answered you, and were being disingenuous. Refusing to play your game is not refusing to respond to your arguments. It's just refusing to play your game.

Is it your paganism that makes you so vile, or do you take credit for that all on your own?

It's being free. Slaves like yourself, taking the viewpoint of your masters, always think that free people are evil. But whether denying the master's will is evil (unlike reasoning and evidence) really does depend on perspective.

I don't think you're evil, I think you're arrogant without having the intelligence or knowledge to back it up.

 

[koshergrl]

Arrogance combined with ignorance is evil.

 

[Newby]

There is a very narrow list of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors which can be considered morally acceptable

Let's see this list. Is this clear enough for you? What beliefs? What attitudes? What behaviors?

 

[koshergrl]

The above exchange between ABK and KG illustrates the main point of this thread: that traditional Christians have enslaved minds. KG accepts dubious evidence of dubious claims, because she MUST believe as she does. If her mind strays into forbidden territory, Hell's jaws open.

There is no way to think rationally under a threat like that. Hence the utter stupidity of creationist arguments, the desperate defensiveness against challenges (as they see it) from other religions, the anger and hostility towards unbelievers. It's anger born of fear, fear for their own souls, fear of the contagion of freedom.

Desperate???? Okay...

Anger and hostility? You're the one with anger and hostility, you started the thread to get exactly that response. Does it give you a reward to trash someone else's belief system? Is that the reward? I really don't get it, most people just live their lives and respect others around them, why is it that you can't seem to do that same? If you go back through our discussion (you and me), the only one who got combative and felt the need to lash out and call names was you sweetie. Really, get a grip on reality.

He has stated that he gets his jollies by traipsing around to Christian sites and attacking them until he gets the boot.

Obviously he's all about live and let live, and open mindedness, and all that jazz.

 

[Newby]

What is 'my sort' of christian?

That has been explained at length. If you in fact don't believe in some or all of the ways that I have described, you need only say so. I'll be happy to take your word for it. Failing that, though, you are just (again) playing disingenuous and deceptive games, or, as I said, lying through your teeth.

And here is the LIST that I was asking for.

Right, there it is, just as I said. Your question is answered. Now, if you disagree that any of those points are the beliefs of traditional Christians, say so, and we'll go from there. But otherwise, you are just (again) playing disingenuous and deceptive games, or, as I said, lying through your teeth.

And the irony of you talking about people distorting your posts whenever you create a thread which lies and distorts an entire religion's belief system

Really? How, pray tell, have I distorted traditional Christianity? What have I said that traditional Christians believe, that they don't believe? You may use the list you just quoted, but never really answered except with a lot of bullshit.

Do traditional Christians believe that they have the only true religion, or not?

Do they believe that the Bible is God's word, and true in every passage, or not?

Is the range of acceptable thought, behavior, and emotion in traditional Christianity narrow, or is it broad? (Put another way: is the road to Heaven "straight and narrow," or is it wide and easy?)

Do traditional Christians believe that every unforgiven sinner goes to Hell, or not?

Do traditional Christians believe that only Christians can be forgiven, or not?

Let's hear it.

None of those things logically explain why Christians are against freedom? You have yet to say or show anything that illustrates that. I keep asking for detail, but I get nothing. Because you have nothing.

 

[Dragon]

None of those things logically explain why Christians are against freedom?

LOL well, not if you have no clue what the word "freedom" means, I guess.

If you believe that God insists we adopt only one religion, then you don't believe in religious freedom. (Even if you accept the First Amendment guarantees of same, you still think that God rejects religious freedom, and so at heart, you do, too.)

If you believe that the Bible is infallible in every word, then you don't believe in freedom of inquiry and freedom to question.

If you believe that the range of acceptable thought, feeling, and behavior is very narrow, then you don't believe in -- well, freedom, as that is the exact antithesis.

If you believe that every unrepentant sinner goes to Hell, then you believe in draconian punishments for disobedience, which again means you reject freedom.

And if you believe that only Christians can be forgiven, combined with the above, then again, you don't believe in religious freedom.

It's really quite obvious. And note, again, that you have implicitly admitted that I have NOT been distorting the views of traditional Christians. Everything I've said about those beliefs, of a factual nature, you agree is true. Your only disagreement lies in what those facts mean.

 

[Dragon]

There is a very narrow list of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors which can be considered morally acceptable

Let's see this list. Is this clear enough for you? What beliefs? What attitudes? What behaviors?

Oh, please. You want me to tell you what behavior is ACCEPTABLE to conservative Christians? Why? Do you not know yourself?

Do you really think you're making a point here, or really saying anything at all?

 

[Dragon]

I don't think you're evil, I think you're arrogant without having the intelligence or knowledge to back it up.

Oh, 'm arrogant all right, but you're lying again. The truth is that you're afraid that i DO have the intelligence and knowledge to back it up. Otherwise, you wouldn't spend so much time trying to prevent the walls from crumbling.

 

[Dragon]

No, there are many of my posts that you never addressed sparky.

Sometimes you repeat yourself, and in answering one post I've responded to more than one. Sometimes you say nothing at all. Either way, I'm not going to directly respond to every post. That doesn't mean you haven't been answered.

 

[koshergrl]

You don't answer. I think it's because you don't understand, or you're so wrapped up in your own mantra you just don't pay attention.

 

[Newby]

There is a very narrow list of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors which can be considered morally acceptable

Let's see this list. Is this clear enough for you? What beliefs? What attitudes? What behaviors?

Oh, please. You want me to tell you what behavior is ACCEPTABLE to conservative Christians? Why? Do you not know yourself?

Do you really think you're making a point here, or really saying anything at all?

Yes, you apparently know what they are and since they're 'narrow' it shouldn't be that difficult for you, right? So, let's hear it?

 

[Newby]

I don't think you're evil, I think you're arrogant without having the intelligence or knowledge to back it up.

Oh, 'm arrogant all right, but you're lying again. The truth is that you're afraid that i DO have the intelligence and knowledge to back it up. Otherwise, you wouldn't spend so much time trying to prevent the walls from crumbling.

What walls are crumbling, pray tell? And if you do have the knowledge and intelligence then you certainly haven't demonstrated it here. You've only made platitudes without any substance. Anyone can do that.

 

[HUGGY]

I don't think you're evil, I think you're arrogant without having the intelligence or knowledge to back it up.

Oh, 'm arrogant all right, but you're lying again. The truth is that you're afraid that i DO have the intelligence and knowledge to back it up. Otherwise, you wouldn't spend so much time trying to prevent the walls from crumbling.

What walls are crumbling, pray tell? And if you do have the knowledge and intelligence then you certainly haven't demonstrated it here. You've only made platitudes without any substance. Anyone can do that.

Anyone can pick up a Babble and claim Jeebus saved them also. It takes zero intelligence. That and 75 cents will get you on a Seattle bus.

 

[Newby]

None of those things logically explain why Christians are against freedom?

LOL well, not if you have no clue what the word "freedom" means, I guess.

If you believe that God insists we adopt only one religion, then you don't believe in religious freedom. (Even if you accept the First Amendment guarantees of same, you still think that God rejects religious freedom, and so at heart, you do, too.)

Um, well, if there is no belief in God, then there is no religion, period. And if there is a belief in God, you can freely choose to follow whatever religion you wish. If you choose christianity and you disagree with with their belief system/doctrine, you can go join another religion. There are plenty of 'former' christians out there, they didn't seem to be 'forced' to continue their 'christianity', so your point is wrong.

If you believe that the Bible is infallible in every word, then you don't believe in freedom of inquiry and freedom to question.

And that's part of being a christian, but no one forces anyone to be a christian, if you don't believe that the Bible is infallible, then that kind of negates the reason for being a christian, doesn't it? What would be the point then, without the Bible and belief in what it teaches, there is no christian religion. This point is just silly really.

If you believe that the range of acceptable thought, feeling, and behavior is very narrow, then you don't believe in -- well, freedom, as that is the exact antithesis.

You have yet to demonstrate what you mean by 'narrow', it's just something that you've apparently made up in your own head because you don't understand what christianity is. You don't understand the whole concept of salvation and why it was needed. If you've read the Bible then you know that Jesus stated that no mortal man can be sin free, that's not the expectation at all. The expectation is to live your life in such a way that sin is a rare occurrence. But, if humans could live sin free, there would have been no need for Christ, would there? And again, if you don't want to live your life in that way, you can choose to not be a christian, it's as simple as that. See how freedom works?

If you believe that every unrepentant sinner goes to Hell, then you believe in draconian punishments for disobedience, which again means you reject freedom.

If you don't believe what the Bible teaches to begin with, then you don't believe that you'll go to hell, so that's a moot point. If you do, then you know that hell is nothing to fear or worry about because you've found salvation through Christ. So really, hell is neither a threat to the believer or non believer. The believer is saved, the non believer doesn't believe in hell.

And if you believe that only Christians can be forgiven, combined with the above, then again, you don't believe in religious freedom.

How does that affect a Christian's freedom in any way? I don't care what religion you practice, I completely believe that you can practice any religion you want or none. It's your choice, not mine. No one can be forced to accept Christ, there would be no point whatsoever to force someone to be a Christian.

It's really quite obvious. And note, again, that you have implicitly admitted that I have NOT been distorting the views of traditional Christians. Everything I've said about those beliefs, of a factual nature, you agree is true. Your only disagreement lies in what those facts mean.

You don't understand the concepts in Christianity, that's very clear from the remarks that you've made.

 

[Newby]

Oh, 'm arrogant all right, but you're lying again. The truth is that you're afraid that i DO have the intelligence and knowledge to back it up. Otherwise, you wouldn't spend so much time trying to prevent the walls from crumbling.

What walls are crumbling, pray tell? And if you do have the knowledge and intelligence then you certainly haven't demonstrated it here. You've only made platitudes without any substance. Anyone can do that.

Anyone can pick up a Babble and claim Jeebus saved them also. It takes zero intelligence. That and 75 cents will get you on a Seattle bus.

Take your babble and disrespect somewhere where it might mean something to someone, it doesn't mean a damn thing here. I'm guessing there are very few places that it would have meaning.

 

[Big Fitz]

What walls are crumbling, pray tell? And if you do have the knowledge and intelligence then you certainly haven't demonstrated it here. You've only made platitudes without any substance. Anyone can do that.

Anyone can pick up a Babble and claim Jeebus saved them also. It takes zero intelligence. That and 75 cents will get you on a Seattle bus.

Take your babble and disrespect somewhere where it might mean something to someone, it doesn't mean a damn thing here. I'm guessing there are very few places that it would have meaning.

Oh don't take away his Raison D'Etre.