Aborted fetus = Lucky bastard?

[Shogun]

He might have uterus envy, too.

I bet you make similar profound statements in the courtroom.


This illustrates the double standard though. If a man wants paternal rights for his share of the child, well, then he must never get laid, have a tiny cock, hate women, want to be a woman, etc etc....



yet, when a WOMAN wants HER rights.. well.. then someone better hit play on the "We are the champions" song and they BETTER not have testicles.





but we go way back talking about double standards, dont we jill.

 

[Shogun]

Read that over to yourself very slowly. I think it gives some insight into WHY you're not married.

And no, you don't care about equality. you care about veto power.

ahh yes.. because every man that is not a gloria steinam neutered zombie is SCORNED by women everywhere..




after all, it sure is true that this generation is NOT known for it's batch of sad, regretful cougars trying to make up for what they passed on by pretending to have a sexual appatite like a man, eh? I mean, shows like sex in the city are probably just like real life!


hey, enjoy your 50th b day knowing that you'll never age as well as a man of the same age.

 

[jillian]

I bet you make similar profound statements in the courtroom.


This illustrates the double standard though. If a man wants paternal rights for his share of the child, well, then he must never get laid, have a tiny cock, hate women, want to be a woman, etc etc....



yet, when a WOMAN wants HER rights.. well.. then someone better hit play on the "We are the champions" song and they BETTER not have testicles.





but we go way back talking about double standards, dont we jill.

you know what, hon... I spent years with matrimonial work being a pretty large part of my practice. Even when I had perfect cases for paternal custody the guys didn't want it. Why??? Because it meant they would actually have to curtail their social lives. They all chose to write the monthly check, see the kid(s) alternate weekends and holidays and maybe dinner one night during the week.

All these stand up guys.... dumped the kids and ran for the hills.

And don't even start me on how many times I had clients in court for child support arrears. I even had one client whose ex (a doctor) decided it was a good idea to buy a versace duvet instead of paying for his daughter's school.

So spare me the sad stories about double standards.

 

[Shogun]

you know what, hon... I spent years with matrimonial work being a pretty large part of my practice. Even when I had perfect cases for paternal custody the guys didn't want it. Why??? Because it meant they would actually have to curtail their social lives. They all chose to write the monthly check, see the kid(s) alternate weekends and holidays and maybe dinner one night during the week.

All these stand up guys.... dumped the kids and ran for the hills.

And don't even start me on how many times I had clients in court for child support arrears. I even had one client whose ex (a doctor) decided it was a good idea to buy a versace duvet instead of paying for his daughter's school.

So spare me the sad stories about double standards.

oh well thank G-D that your personal experience pretty much defines the entire spectrum of men. Hell, why didn't you just say so earlier??

Gosh, what on EARTH would we do without jillians personal experience? CLEARLY, all men have no interest in their paternal rights... because jillians exposure says so.




I guess it's a good thing no man has ever tried to retain his parental perogative.. well, at least in JILLIANS tenure..

 

[frazzledgear]

You have said SEVERAL TIMES in your post said that a woman can kill her fetus up to the point of delivery....I believe you are WRONG on that and would like a link for proof....and I would also like proof of any woman killing her viable baby right before birth because she felt like excercising her control over the man and over her baby to be.

You made some good points frazzle but they all fell apart when you emphasized that women kill their babies to be up to the point of birth....(As if all women do this and WOULD do this.... rubbing their hands together saying goodie, goodie, goodie, I get to kill my child now even though it is breathing and viable.... on that, i can say....kiss my grits )

Abortion has never been completely illegal in this country, even before Roe v wade, over 30 states had abortion as a legal procedure for women.

Do we make the man marry the woman if he gets her pregnant since that is what is the right thing to do...have the child have both parents in his life?


It will never be equal between man and a woman when it comes to pregnancy and childbirth imo frazzle, it can be equal from the point of birth, minus the man's lack of ability to breast feed....

a man's seed is the only thing that can get a woman pregnant....if you hold him to that, since the man is suppose to be the king of the castle, then maybe we would have less "sex" before marriage, which is the main root cause, for an unwanted pregnancy and abortions...before rubbers and especially bc pills.... men were afraid of getting a girl pregnant because he knew he would have to marry the girl, if he was to save any kind of "face" in his community... Should this attitutde be the one to come back in to play to reduce unwanted pregnancy?
care

I didn't say women often or frequently kill their baby right before birth in order to have some kind of evil power or vengeance on the child's father. What I said was -it doesn't make any difference under the law if that is WHY she wants to do it or not. The law will back up whatever the woman decides for whatever reason she has for that decision -whether society considers it a valid reason or not, whether the child's father considers it a legitimate reason or not. Or back her up if she wants to force him to be a parent against his will -even if her only reason for doing so is because she believes it will force him to stay in her life or because she figures he is a source of income with child support or whatever. The law will back up her RIGHT to cram her decision, regardless of the worth of her reason for that decision - down a man's throat no matter what she decides and no matter WHY she makes that decision. Good reasons, bad reasons, moral reasons, evil and very immoral reasons -it will back her up in forcing her decision on the man.

Now how is this more fair than the laws of the past -which at least held both parties accountable and forbid EITHER from killing that child -who is the only innocent in the whole thing? Past laws did not force men to marry a woman they impregnated -social mores put that pressure on men to marry a woman if he impregnated her. It was considered the only way to rectify irresponsible behavior by behaving responsibily toward both the mother and their child. But whether they married or not, the law still held BOTH morally and financially responsible.

My point is that an act BOTH people consented to engage in should carry the SAME consequences for both, should hold both parties accountable. Our laws today do not do this. Instead it gives the woman the "right" to make a decision that has PROFOUND and lifelong consequences for the man's future and another, totally innocent person's very existence. And neither of the other two people so profoundly affected by that decision have ANY right to have any say in a decision that will directly affect THEM. I fail to see any "equality" in such a law, I fail to see how this more "fair" in any way -and I see some pretty significant and undesirable consequences for society as a result.

According to the Allan Guttmacher Institute, for women who choose to have a late term abortion, 71% of those women said they were having a late term abortion because they had just "misjudged" how far along they were. Now I bet that "misjudged" bs includes a whole lot of other reasons women are actually very reluctant to reveal when getting a late term abortion. But that was the most common reason women had for having her viable or extremely-close-to-viable fetus killed. 33% said they were having a late term abortion because they had been reluctant to tell their partner and kept postponing revealing their pregnancy, 24% said it took that long to decide whether to even have an abortion, 8% decided to wait to have an abortion until their relationship with the child's father had changed (whatever THAT means), 6% changed their mind about wanting a child after they had intentionally gotten pregnant. And just 2% had a late term abortion because a fetal problem had been diagnosed late in pregnancy. The one that is a nonexistent reason for a late term abortion are threats to a woman's life or health -doesn't even appear on the list of reasons women give for having a late term abortion. That is because it actually isn't NECESSARY to kill a viable fetus to save the life or health of the mother. Having to choose whether to save the baby or the mother is the stuff of TV dramas -but it isn't reality. Doctors may deliver a baby early for the sake of the mother's health and that child may later die from complications of prematurity -but they won't deliberately kill it to save the mother. A late term abortion is for the specific purpose of killing a fetus who would otherwise survive.

So the vast majority of late term abortions are to satisfy the woman's personal WHIM, who compounded her irresponsible behavior of an unplanned pregnancy with more irresponsible behavior by allowing that child to continue to live and then waiting until the child was viable or very near viable -and then killing it. Not because there was either something wrong with the fetus or because the woman's life or health was at stake.

The CDC collects statistics on late term abortions performed in the US -but does not collect information on the exact gestational age of a fetus killed in a late term abortion or what percent were done to viable fetuses. All abortions performed after the 20th week of pregnancy are just all lumped together as "late term abortions" by the CDC. My son was born at 24 weeks gestation -and that was 20 years ago. Perfectly normal guy who is now 6' and 185 lbs. and in college. And he was not even close to the most extremely premature child to survive either then or now. That record is now held by a girl born last fall at 21 1/2 weeks gestation.

Fortunately, there are only a few doctors who are willing to kill viable, healthy fetuses in the entire country, and only two who are willing to kill a healthy, full term fetus in the process of its birth. So unless a woman is willing to travel to the states where these doctors practice in one of the four states that allow late term abortion on demand, it isn't easy for most women to have their viable fetus killed in this country. But it can be done -and it IS done. According to the pro-abortion Allen Guttmacher Institute, 15,000 babies are killed AFTER 21 weeks gestation and 600 are killed anywhere from 26 weeks to 40 weeks. Every year. Since the youngest surviving preemie was born at 21 and 1/2 weeks -that means thousands and thousands of viable babies killed every year. There have been more than 42 MILLION abortions since 1973 -a holocaust that puts Nazi Germany to shame.

In the four states that allow late term abortion on demand on healthy, viable fetuses, there is no time limit in the pregnancy after which they cannot have one. There is no time limit as long as it is done before the child takes its first breath -which means a woman can be full term, go into labor and decide to have her child legally killed as long as it is killed before it takes its first breath. The whole point of a late term abortion on demand is to kill a healthy, viable child who otherwise WOULD take that breath unless it is killed.

Surely allowing a baby to grow until it is viable is a woman giving her CONSENT for that pregnancy. Once it is viable -a woman cannot claim she "owns" that child's life and she can have that child killed if she chooses. Because once a fetus is viable, that child is the sole owner of its life. And since two people had to give their consent for the sex act that resulted in that child, BOTH parents should be held accountable instead of what the law has done by giving sole and INCREDIBLE power to just one of the two partners. A power by which she -for any reason she wants -can force on a man what the law will NEVER force on her. The notion that a man loses any right to have a say in his future, or whether HIS child will live or die on the grounds his sperm has left his body and took that man's rights with it -is ludicrous. But it certainly makes men second class citizens with fewer rights than women.

Oddly enough, the one group of people who are THE biggest supporters of abortion on demand are............single men. Maybe they see it as a terrific solution for any future irresponsible behavior on their part. But without appreciating the tremendous loss of say in their future and the very real profound consequences for their future that they forfeit at the same time.

 

[jillian]

oh well thank G-D that your personal experience pretty much defines the entire spectrum of men. Hell, why didn't you just say so earlier??

Gosh, what on EARTH would we do without jillians personal experience? CLEARLY, all men have no interest in their paternal rights... because jillians exposure says so.

Except that its not just my personal experience...it's borne out by the numbers. Otherwise I wouldn't have relied on anecdotes.

But feel free to continue stamping your feet. When our rabbit does that, it's called thumping. Kind of cute from a fuzzy lop-eared rodent. From a grown man, not so much.

 

[Shogun]

Except that its not just my personal experience...it's borne out by the numbers. Otherwise I wouldn't have relied on anecdotes.

But feel free to continue stamping your feet. When our rabbit does that, it's called thumping. Kind of cute from a fuzzy lop-eared rodent. From a grown man, not so much.

it's born out of a UNEQUAL system that puts a greater value on a woman than it does a man. How many other populations can you name that DONT rebel against clearly stacked odds? Like I said, even the field of parental rights and put value beyond a child support check into paternity and see what happens. As it is, it's no wonder men choose not to worship at your alter of venus given their marginalized role.

again, No taxation without representation.


I have a dog that shits in the yard... usually I pay no attention but today I was reminded of your arguement while he was posing like a kangaroo.

 

[Care4all]

sure, deadmeat dads suck. Was that ever my arguement?


Now, imagine how many men might just step up to the plate if they knew they were not merely a meal ticket for some bitch he laid the meat to back in the day. Because, you know, people just LOVE to participate on unequal grounds.

You may seriously need some professional help....I feel for you and your destiny of perpetual lonliness....

I just wish I could figure out what made you, the way you are...it would help in trying to respond....

I happen to love men, I don't hate them...

in general, I get along with men better than women....I certainly love my husband....to me, this is not about a vagina verses a penis or the hatred of one or the other....it is about reality.

And honestly, if the boyfriend really wanted to have a child, I think the woman would have the man's child if he told her such and if she did not have his baby after he asked her to marry him and be parents to the child then he either has something very wrong with him and she recognizes such or there is something very wrong with her...

Either way, it is NONE of my business and they need to work it out amicably, together....if they can't do that before the child is born, then God help them, when and if the baby is born!

care

 

[Shogun]

thats the thing that is cracking me up the most. You seem to think that my willingness to argue a position and resolve for fairness makes me some woman hating behemoth that yearns for the rule of thumb glorydays of yesteryear. I mean, believe what you want but it's still the cherry on top of this whole thread. I guess, if you are keeping score, I also have subatomic genitalia, desire a uturis, and about another half a dozen things that has no basis in anything outside of your silly little defensive reaction to a man trying to preserve his parental rights.

Hell, I lived with two gals in college, HAVE more gal friends in my lifetime than guy friens, AM a mammas boy raised in a single parent household with a 30 dollar per week check from pops, revered my grandmother, have been known to entertain like batman etc etc. I love women just like you love men. But this isn't about us personally. This is about EQUAL responsibility for an EQUAL zipper decision. This is about the rights of men who are just as worthy of parental consideration at ALL stages as a woman is hers. You'll notice, I don't preach about morals and sexual frequency. I don't underestimate the power of the female libido in an over-sexualized shadow of their former societal roles. Trust me, I enjoy it. BUT, I am looking for no more and no less than equality. Just as you can name a list of nonsequiters so too can men give their examples. Just as you can villify men for WANTING to be fathers (for christs fucking sake) they can - and unfortunatly do - reject current child support policies which totally favor the woman. Now, would you like to talk about behaviour or do you want to construct a nickle store freud couch right here in the thread?

 

[Care4all]

thats the thing that is cracking me up the most. You seem to think that my willingness to argue a position and resolve for fairness makes me some woman hating behemoth that yearns for the rule of thumb glorydays of yesteryear. I mean, believe what you want but it's still the cherry on top of this whole thread. I guess, if you are keeping score, I also have subatomic genitalia, desire a uturis, and about another half a dozen things that has no basis in anything outside of your silly little defensive reaction to a man trying to preserve his parental rights.

Hell, I lived with two gals in college, HAVE more gal friends in my lifetime than guy friens, AM a mammas boy raised in a single parent household with a 30 dollar per week check from pops, revered my grandmother, have been known to entertain like batman etc etc. I love women just like you love men. But this isn't about us personally. This is about EQUAL responsibility for an EQUAL zipper decision. This is about the rights of men who are just as worthy of parental consideration at ALL stages as a woman is hers. You'll notice, I don't preach about morals and sexual frequency. I don't underestimate the power of the female libido in an over-sexualized shadow of their former societal roles. Trust me, I enjoy it. BUT, I am looking for no more and no less than equality. Just as you can name a list of nonsequiters so too can men give their examples. Just as you can villify men for WANTING to be fathers (for christs fucking sake) they can - and unfortunatly do - reject current child support policies which totally favor the woman. Now, would you like to talk about behaviour or do you want to construct a nickle store freud couch right here in the thread?

I think we are getting somewhere, the couch may not be such a bad idea!

I can certainly understand the position that you speak about and have a great deal of empathy and compassion for the man that wants to have his baby, while the woman, for some reason does not.... and insists that it goes her way.

I do not, in any way think that this is the case with most of the girls that end up aborting.....I just can't fathom it.....and maybe this comes from being a female, but I see it more in this light, and I see and know girl after girl whose boyfriend did not want her to keep their baby and insist that she abort it....

I can acknowledge that the "sad stories" are on both sides of the street, but can you?

Care

 

[Shogun]

of course I can. I've never suggested otherwise. and many men DO shirk their responsibility. I have no patience for dead beat dads. But this isn't about a higher frequency of deadbeat dads. If the majority of women in 1953 wanted to stay at home should that hinder the ones who wanted to go to college? Do we defend and VALIDATE a system that is, as some HAVE argued here, can NEVER be equal, lopsided to cater to a single sex?


Can we agree that the moment right before coitus that both parties make a decision weather or not to have sex under whatever conditions that are present? Can we agree that this single mutual decision is the direct cause of potential pregnancy? Would you agree that a fetus (remember, I'm offering total personal female perogative from education and birth control all the way up to the development of the fetal heartbeat) consists of shared genetic material that is distinct from the DNA of the host mother? That it is this unique human being that throws the "my body" argument off track? That men are capable of putting just as much parental value on this child as the host mother?

further, that people tend to participate in something in which they feel their input is valued beyond their zipper decision? Single parent situations have been no panacea to humanity. Not to mention, the facet of a woman having to birth a shared child is only one aspect of my Great Abortion Compromise. If the father wants the kid he's gotta pay for it all, from prenatal care to graduations. You may think that the repercussions of letting a man off of child support is a culture of men who find em, fuck em and flee em. Well, guess what. We're already there. I happen to think that many women, knowing that they may not be able to lean on a dude, may choose to be more responsible with who she fucks than simply telling a man he made his decision at the zipper. Hell, this is EMPOWERING. The ball is in your court!

 

[Care4all]

And one more thing, you are the one that started in on the name calling, like bitch, and you are the one that brought up the Vagina monologue and penises and vagina bashing....I did not.

So, something ain't right about your story on how you think you love women....you fell short of using Cun_ in your labeling of women, at least from what i read, but you made it clear, several times that women were sluts, etc....and all in the name of just trying to "debate" an issue...so me thinks it may go deeper than you let on....

Care

 

[Shogun]

Did you not catch that I am a vulgar dude?


and believe you me there are some bitches, whores, and the rest out there. The giner monologues, lilith fair and tori bits are taken in caricature to a third and fourth generation secondhand feminist type. I've had the pleasure of having this same kind of debate with such in college. In fact, yes, I have gone to a theatre production of Eve Ensler's vaginafest (hey, it's in the title... gimme a break!)

I am also guilty of jabbing back +1 in response antagonizing posts too so...


but I wouldnt try to charge me by the hour just yet. This is only the internet, you know. I could be a Nigerian scammer with exceptional engrish skills lining you up for a helluva international deal if you'll only give me your bank account number.

 

[Ravi]

So you don't hate women you just pretend you do on the internet?

Interesting.

 

[manifold]

This is just a guess, but I'd say the occurences of a sperm donor wanting his bastard offspring, while his choice of cum dumpster decides to terminate, is probably less frequent than a black man calling a white man boy.





Just sayin...

 

[Shogun]

So you don't hate women you just pretend you do on the internet?

Interesting.

I'll make an exception for you, Ravir.

 

[Shogun]

This is just a guess, but I'd say the occurences of a sperm donor wanting his bastard offspring, while his choice of cum dumpster decides to terminate, is probably less frequent than a black man calling a white man boy.

Just sayin...

sure, less frequent..


but LESS RELEVANT?

 

[Ravi]

I'll make an exception for you, Ravir.

Sweet! It's been awhile since I've managed to make an idiot hate me.

 

[Shogun]

just wait until you become some dudes baby mamma. You'll be set with cable money AND will have make another impression on one of those testicled humans!




that is, if you can keep your coathanger paws from killing a fetus just because you have the vagina.

 

[Ravi]

Do you normally cry this much when you lose an argument?

Just curious.