CDZ Abortion

[Bonzi]

The bible not only condones abortion (your God ordered the Israelites to commit wholesale abortions) but it provides an abortion ritual to follow in the event one of the chosen people wanted to obtain one.

Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I see that I've posted in this thread earlier. And I'm pretty sure what that post was.

My question to you all is, should I tell our daughter that our doctor inferred that we should have aborted her?

I'm leaning towards this. Just by way of telling her of our love and commitment to the pregnancy at the time.

What you tell your daughter is entirely your own business.

However if you are doing so in order to influence her to your way of believing then that is your right albeit you are not letting her have all of the facts and allowing her to reach an unbiased conclusion on her own.

It is up to you as to how you choose to raise your own child and which beliefs you want her to have. That is your right and I will defend your right to do so.

But from an outsiders perspective you are introducing an influence that will bias her thinking in the future. That is not a criticism of you, just an observation. You can do as you see fit.

Personally I want my own daughter to know that I loved her unconditionally.

I have no need or desire to influence her thinking. Quite the opposite.

I want her to have the ability to apply her critical thinking skills to any and all situations she may face in the future and make a sound and reasoned decision as to what is best in the circumstances rather than be influenced by something that biases her judgement.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The bible not only condones abortion (your God ordered the Israelites to commit wholesale abortions) but it provides an abortion ritual to follow in the event one of the chosen people wanted to obtain one.

Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this.

Numbers 5

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”




Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."



So your God ordered that Samarian fetuses must be aborted and if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful her husband can force her to have an abortion.

 

[jillian]

Thinking on your own, if you know that at 5 weeks or later that if you have an abortion, you are killing a human life, how can you not feel inside of you that is wrong?

Aside from the fact that you are killing a human life, think of the emotional and psychological damage it has done to millions of women (and men, don't think just because the men don't carry the life, they are not affected).

There are special cases which I won't get into here, but, the vast majority of abortions are done due to irresponsible behavior, and, the legalization of abortion has only enabled more irresponsible behavior.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Perhaps, but let's not be stupid - everyone knows it to be true.

How about looking at the credible facts instead of baseless assumptions?

U.S. National Profile

​

• • In 2011, there were 5.9 million pregnancies to the 62.5 million women of reproductive age (15–44) in the United States. Sixty-seven percent of these pregnancies resulted in live births and 18% in induced abortions.
  • Nearly half of pregnancies among American women—more than three million each year—are unintended, and about four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.
  • In 2008, the national unintended pregnancy rate increased to 54 per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, up from 49 in 2001.
  • Unintended pregnancy rates are substantially higher among poor and low-income women, minority women, women aged 18–24 and cohabiting women than among other groups.
  • Disparities in unintended pregnancy rates among subgroups of women have persisted over time, and in some cases have increased. As of 2008, poor women with family incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level have rates more than five times the rate of higher income women and two to three times the national rate.
  • Sixty-nine percent of pregnancies among black women, 56% among Hispanic women and 42% among white women are unintended.
  • Unintended pregnancy rates are generally highest in the South and Southwest, and in states with large urban populations.
  • In 2008, 65% of births resulting from unintended pregnancies were publicly funded, compared with 48% of all births and 36% of births resulting from intended pregnancies.
  • Of the two million publicly funded births, 53% resulted from unintended pregnancies, accounting for $12.5 billion in costs—half of the total public expenditures on births.
  • In 2011, 1,058,500 women obtained abortions in the United States, producing a rate of 16.9 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age. This is a decline of 13% since 2008, when it was 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44.
  • Eighty-nine percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
  • Eighteen percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15–17 obtain 6% of all abortions, teens aged 18–19 obtain 11% and teens younger than 15 obtain 0.4%.
  • Women in their 20s account for more than half of all abortions; women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and women aged 25–29 obtain 24%.
  • Non-Hispanic white women account for 36% of abortions, non-Hispanic black women for 30%, Hispanic women for 25% and women of other races for 9%.
  • Women who have never married and are not cohabiting obtain 45% of all abortions.
  • About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.
  • Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children; $22,050 for a family of four). Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level.
  • In 2011, there were 1,720 abortion providers in the United States. This is virtually unchanged from 2008, when there were 1,793 abortion providers.
  • In 2011, 89% of U.S. counties had no abortion clinic; 38% of women lived in these counties.

Abortion-Reasons Women Choose Abortion

Abortion - Reasons Women Choose Abortion​

The decision to continue yourpregnancy or to end it is very personal.

Each year, nearly 1.2 million American women have an abortionto end a pregnancy.2

The most common reasons women consider abortion are:
​

• • Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.2
  • Inability to support or care for a child.
  • To end an unwanted pregnancy.
  • To prevent the birth of a child with birth defects or severe medical problems. Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done.
  • Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.
  • Physical or mental conditions that endanger the woman's health if the pregnancy is continued.

In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.2

Very few abortions are done after 16 weeks of pregnancy. But some women have to delay abortions because they have trouble with paying for, finding, or traveling to an abortion specialist.

This information is produced and provided by the National CancerInstitute (NCI). The information in this topic may have changed since it was written. For the most current information, contact the NationalCancer Institute via the Internet web site at http:// cancer .gov or call 1-800-4-CANCER.​

List the facts above that support your claim that " the vast majority of abortions are done due to irresponsible behavior".

They aren't interested in reality. A bunch of misogynist males who think the harlots should be punished.

Where are they when it comes to daycare, education/job training and everything else that people really need to take care of a child?

They're nowhere because it isn't about "the children". It's about them putting their feet on women's necks. You take away choice, you take away contraception and you end up with women they can batter because they control them economically like they used to

You're still living in the 70s .It's the 21st century join us

join people who want to drag us back to the 50's:? why would I be stupid enough to do that? i'd have to be as self-hating as you are misogynist.

and the 70's weren't my era

 

[Bonzi]

The bible not only condones abortion (your God ordered the Israelites to commit wholesale abortions) but it provides an abortion ritual to follow in the event one of the chosen people wanted to obtain one.

Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this.

Numbers 5

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”




Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."



So your God ordered that Samarian fetuses must be aborted and if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful her husband can force her to have an abortion.

Are you a theologian? Because I believe you are mis-interpreting the Bible.

I am NOT a theologian, but, have this to say .....

If something is done at God's command, there is a reason for it and, anything that is commanded of God is to be obeyed. A woman doesn't just get to decide this on her own.

The "ceremony", as quoted in the Bible above, like I said, I don't have the theological background training to tell you what that means, but, unless you tell me you are a theologian and in good relationship with God, I believe you are sorely misrepresenting God's word.

 

[daws101]

The bible not only condones abortion (your God ordered the Israelites to commit wholesale abortions) but it provides an abortion ritual to follow in the event one of the chosen people wanted to obtain one.

Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this.

Numbers 5

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”




Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."



So your God ordered that Samarian fetuses must be aborted and if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful her husband can force her to have an abortion.

Are you a theologian? Because I believe you are mis-interpreting the Bible.

I am NOT a theologian, but, have this to say .....

If something is done at God's command, there is a reason for it and, anything that is commanded of God is to be obeyed. A woman doesn't just get to decide this on her own.

The "ceremony", as quoted in the Bible above, like I said, I don't have the theological background training to tell you what that means, but, unless you tell me you are a theologian and in good relationship with God, I believe you are sorely misrepresenting God's word.

false! dt's representation of the bible is logical and factual .
yours and lots of so called Christians interpretation is based on an emotional not reason based bias.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The bible not only condones abortion (your God ordered the Israelites to commit wholesale abortions) but it provides an abortion ritual to follow in the event one of the chosen people wanted to obtain one.

Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this.

Numbers 5

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”




Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."



So your God ordered that Samarian fetuses must be aborted and if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful her husband can force her to have an abortion.

Are you a theologian? Because I believe you are mis-interpreting the Bible.

I am NOT a theologian, but, have this to say .....

If something is done at God's command, there is a reason for it and, anything that is commanded of God is to be obeyed. A woman doesn't just get to decide this on her own.

The "ceremony", as quoted in the Bible above, like I said, I don't have the theological background training to tell you what that means, but, unless you tell me you are a theologian and in good relationship with God, I believe you are sorely misrepresenting God's word.

So you were just kidding when you said this?

"Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this."​

I kept my side of the bargain and provided you with chapter and verse of the Word of your God.

Now you are trying to win the Olympic gold in backpedaling.

There is zero requirement that anyone must have "theological background training" in order to interpret the bible. That fallacy was trashed by Martin Luther during the Protestant Reformation.

But thanks for playing. You can pick up your door prize on the table next to the Exit.

 

[Bonzi]

The bible not only condones abortion (your God ordered the Israelites to commit wholesale abortions) but it provides an abortion ritual to follow in the event one of the chosen people wanted to obtain one.

Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this.

Numbers 5

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”




Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."



So your God ordered that Samarian fetuses must be aborted and if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful her husband can force her to have an abortion.

Are you a theologian? Because I believe you are mis-interpreting the Bible.

I am NOT a theologian, but, have this to say .....

If something is done at God's command, there is a reason for it and, anything that is commanded of God is to be obeyed. A woman doesn't just get to decide this on her own.

The "ceremony", as quoted in the Bible above, like I said, I don't have the theological background training to tell you what that means, but, unless you tell me you are a theologian and in good relationship with God, I believe you are sorely misrepresenting God's word.

So you were just kidding when you said this?

"Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this."​

I kept my side of the bargain and provided you with chapter and verse of the Word of your God.

Now you are trying to win the Olympic gold in backpedaling.

There is zero requirement that anyone must have "theological background training" in order to interpret the bible. That fallacy was trashed by Martin Luther during the Protestant Reformation.

But thanks for playing. You can pick up your door prize on the table next to the Exit.

You're not right - I'm just not smart enough to prove you wrong

 

[Bonzi]

The bible not only condones abortion (your God ordered the Israelites to commit wholesale abortions) but it provides an abortion ritual to follow in the event one of the chosen people wanted to obtain one.

Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will debate you on this.

Numbers 5

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”




Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."



So your God ordered that Samarian fetuses must be aborted and if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful her husband can force her to have an abortion.

Are you a theologian? Because I believe you are mis-interpreting the Bible.

I am NOT a theologian, but, have this to say .....

If something is done at God's command, there is a reason for it and, anything that is commanded of God is to be obeyed. A woman doesn't just get to decide this on her own.

The "ceremony", as quoted in the Bible above, like I said, I don't have the theological background training to tell you what that means, but, unless you tell me you are a theologian and in good relationship with God, I believe you are sorely misrepresenting God's word.

false! dt's representation of the bible is logical and factual .
yours and lots of so called Christians interpretation is based on an emotional not reason based bias.

Yeah it looks all nice and logical - but unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge at the tip of my fingers to debate my stance - God's intention in the Bible was not to say it's okay for women to go have abortions. That's ridiculous. He knows it and you know it.

But twisting words and using debate tactics, will give him that.

Yet still, he's wrong.

 

[Bonzi]

I kept my side of the bargain and provided you with chapter and verse of the Word of your God.

I hate the way this board "tiers" the replies.. ugh

anyway, will admit that I didn't keep my word on the debate. I thought you would come up with a verse I was more familiar with - and, in order to debate you I will have to read up on this scripture, so, not sure when that will be (if ever) - I'm here to fun and to kill time, if it feels to much like work I'll bail out, so yeah, not keeping my end.

But I'm still right

 

[Bonzi]

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

Numbers 5:11-31 describes an unusual procedure a husband could use to determine if his wife had been unfaithful to him. Essentially, the husband and wife would come to the priest, the priest would then create a concoction of unpleasant ingredients, and then the wife would have to drink the concoction. If the wife was guilty of adultery, she would get sick and her belly would swell. If the wife was innocent, God would protect her from the effects of the concoction. There was nothing magical about the concoction. It was entirely a matter of God using the result to demonstrate whether a woman was innocent or guilty. So, in summary, Numbers 5:11-31 affirms the truth of Numbers 32:23, "Be sure your sin will find you out."

Some propose that Numbers 5:11-31 refers to God causing an abortion. The 2011 edition of the NIV mistakenly states that the drink will cause miscarriage in Numbers 5:21-22, 27. However, this is not what the passage is talking about. Pregnancy is nowhere mentioned, or even hinted at, in the text. The only thing that even sounds like pregnancy is the guilty wife’s stomach becoming bloated, but even in that instance, it has nothing to do with pregnancy. Further, the passage does not say that drinking the concoction would cause an abortion/miscarriage. While drinking a poisonous mixture of ingredients could very well cause a miscarriage, that is not what this text is speaking of.

If a wife was found guilty, the punishment was death (Leviticus 20:10). If the wife was found innocent, she would be “cleared of guilt” and “able to have children” (Numbers 11:28). So, again, Numbers 5:11-31 does not refer to abortion in any sense. Rather, it is describing a method that God allowed to be used to determine if a wife had committed adultery against her husband.

 

[Derideo_Te]

You're not right - I'm just not smart enough to prove you wrong

At least you are modest!

And it has yet to be determined that I am "wrong".

 

[Derideo_Te]

Pregnancy is nowhere mentioned, or even hinted at, in the text. The only thing that even sounds like pregnancy is the guilty wife’s stomach becoming bloated, but even in that instance, it has nothing to do with pregnancy. Further, the passage does not say that drinking the concoction would cause an abortion/miscarriage.

Per the passage quoted from Leviticus 21-22 above;

21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”​

Twice Leviticus mentions miscarriage and since it is as a result of the potion that she imbibed that this occurs it is obviously an induced abortion.

Any other reading of that passage is merely an attempt to deny the obvious. FYI induced abortion was big business back then. There was a wild plant that caused abortions that the Egyptians used and the Israelites would have known about from the time they were slaves. (Leviticus is one of the Mosaic texts.) This plant was so popular that harvesting it ended up wiping out the species entirely.

So it was not in the least bit surprising to discover that it was recorded in the bible with the appropriate instructions on how to administer it and what the results would be. The bloating was probably just a side effect.

I notice that you didn't even try to deal with the Samarian abortion slaughter.

 

[Bonzi]

Pregnancy is nowhere mentioned, or even hinted at, in the text. The only thing that even sounds like pregnancy is the guilty wife’s stomach becoming bloated, but even in that instance, it has nothing to do with pregnancy. Further, the passage does not say that drinking the concoction would cause an abortion/miscarriage.

Per the passage quoted from Leviticus 21-22 above;

21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”​

Twice Leviticus mentions miscarriage and since it is as a result of the potion that she imbibed that this occurs it is obviously an induced abortion.

Any other reading of that passage is merely an attempt to deny the obvious. FYI induced abortion was big business back then. There was a wild plant that caused abortions that the Egyptians used and the Israelites would have known about from the time they were slaves. (Leviticus is one of the Mosaic texts.) This plant was so popular that harvesting it ended up wiping out the species entirely.

So it was not in the least bit surprising to discover that it was recorded in the bible with the appropriate instructions on how to administer it and what the results would be. The bloating was probably just a side effect.

I notice that you didn't even try to deal with the Samarian abortion slaughter.

Yeah, I'll get to that later... and also reply to this ... later

 

[Bonzi]

You're not right - I'm just not smart enough to prove you wrong

At least you are modest!

And it has yet to be determined that I am "wrong".

Are you and daws the same person cause ya'll answer me at the same time of day....

ah no! it's the paranoid you're a sock ploy.

ooohkay... whatever a sock is... ? you can address my long post above when you feel like it

no need it's the same bullshit I've heard endlessly from al carte Christians like yourself one more reading will not change that.

I'm just putting it out there.. God will do the drawing...

 

[Bonzi]

You're not right - I'm just not smart enough to prove you wrong

At least you are modest!

And it has yet to be determined that I am "wrong".

Are you and daws the same person cause ya'll answer me at the same time of day....

If you are going to be making accusations of this nature you need to read the USMB rules first. Doing so in the CDZ is frowned upon.

It was a question, not an accusation. If they want to kick me off, no sweat off my brow!

 

[dblack]

Every sperm is sacred.

 

[daws101]

At least you are modest!

And it has yet to be determined that I am "wrong".

Are you and daws the same person cause ya'll answer me at the same time of day....

ah no! it's the paranoid you're a sock ploy.

ooohkay... whatever a sock is... ? you can address my long post above when you feel like it

no need it's the same bullshit I've heard endlessly from al carte Christians like yourself one more reading will not change that.

I'm just putting it out there.. God will do the drawing...

dreamin' is free.

 

[daws101]

please watch them back to back

 

[hazlnut]

Considering that in the Bible, Adam and Eve didn't actually come to life until God "breathed the Breath of Life into them".

Until a baby draws it's first breath, it's still not a "human".

That's exactly what I've always believed. The breath of life is a concept that spans almost all cultures. The concept of first breath when the spirit of god, the soul enters the body, and last breath when the soul leaves is nearly universal. There are different terms, and variations on that theme-- Breath Of Life, Holy Spirit, Holy Wind. But it's all the same idea.

The loophole that the Catholic Church uses to justify its stand on abortion is that oxygenated blood is carried to the baby via the mother pre-birth - thus the breath of life happens prenatally. Kind of a stretch if you ask me. And if you've witnessed a birth, you know what I mean when I say it is a spiritual experience.

I believe it is arrogant to think to know God's will. Doctors have been given the gift of a great mind and skills by God and most have a good heart -- we should trust that God acts through them. I like to believe that an abortion is the termination of pregnancy and a vessel for a soul that will be placed elsewhere.

Ultimately I believe that the anti-abortion notion comes from the fear of death - fear of the unknown. And I think to certain extent a real lack of faith in God as infinite and beyond our understanding.